RIP Kobe Bryant, dies in Helicopter Crash (01/26/20)

[Captain_Caveman]

Ok, been a day. Going to mention that Kobe likely committed violent sexual assault on a young woman. Part of his legacy in my eyes, even if the media can’t or won’t mention it. Helluva basketball player, though. A supreme alpha. Didn’t play correctly but had a killer instinct on par with anyone. Can also make the case he was >= Jordan, as he did it in vs stiffer competition under rules that didn’t promote iso superstar play.

[threrf23]

When Kobe entered the league, I was a teenager, the Celtics sucked, I didn't have sports channel, and often I had nothing better to do at night than to watch the NBA on TNT. I used to play with the Lakers in NBA Live. When Kobe was a scrawny 18 y/o rookie, I used to enjoy watching play when he got burn, and I used to like letting him run the point in NBA Live. It was very clear that he was an outlier, and was going to have a hell of a career. Back when the Celtics were good, I was real young and hadn't followed them closely, so Kobe might have actually been my first binky.

He has often gotten a bad rap here, but if you were a true bball fan he always demanded respect; he always lived and breathed basketball and was far from a modern day diva. As a C's fan, I thought that this was real classy:

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I'm glad nobody's been harping on the old rape allegation here, because I've seen that elsewhere. But because it's on someone's mind and is already starting to inspire headlines - it was a single allegation to my knowledge, it started with consensual contact by all accounts, and if there was nonconsensual sex it's not clear whether Kobe realized it at the time. This isn't to defend him per se, I'm just saying...

Looking back in the hindsight of this tragedy, in recent times Kobe has often come across as highly content and at peace with the world, as if he had accomplished his purpose in life and was perhaps ready to move on. That would have been a positive angle to harp on...if it weren't for the others who lost their lives. Man...

[Triple7]

Watch on YouTube

;feature=emb_title
Anyone here with knowledge of aviation?

In the last part of this audio the flight control tells the pilot to contact Socal at 134.2 and the pilot repeats 34.2 instead of 134.2

After that the helicopter went in a totally different direction. Flight control told pilot you're following 1200 code and too low and all comminication was lost.

There is nothing wrong with the read back of the frequency. 34.2 is the same as 134.2 as its understood because vhf freq starts with 1.

[Triple7]

What is more tragic, is as more information comes out, it looks like this should have been avoided. And by no means am I putting the blame on the pilot or anyone. Just one of those instances where someone needs to make a split decision, and the wrong one was chosen. I'm sure many of us were at that point somewhere, somehow in our life, and we just happen to choose the right choice. However, we would never know because we never knew. If that makes any sense.

This could have been avoided. If there were no mechanical failure, then pilot error would most likely been the cause. They have enough fuel and would have been better to land somewhere else.

[Fencer reregistered]

Ok, been a day. Going to mention that Kobe likely committed violent sexual assault on a young woman. Part is his legacy in my eyes, even if the media can’t or won’t mention it. Helluva basketball player, though. A supreme alpha. Didn’t play correctly but had a killer instinct on par with anyone. Can also make the case he was >= Jordan, as he did it in vs stiffer competition under rules that didn’t promote iso superstar play.

Actually, I'm not as sure it was a vicious assault as I once was.

The woman seemed to be genuinely conflicted as to whether what happened was consensual, and in such cases I've become inclined to look at whether the man has an evident pattern of similar behavior. If he does, then he's a repeat abuser. But if not, maybe it really was a consensual situation gone horribly wrong amidst bad communication.

And I'm not aware of such a pattern in Kobe's case (even though we can assume that, like many NBA players, he was a serial consensual adulterer).

[Parliament10]

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Fencer reregistered]

Plenty of icons have died sadly this way too young. The famous Buddy Holly crash with other icons of the time. Stevie Ray Vaughan died in a helicopter crash. And I am sure I am missing some others out there.

John Denver is an obvious one for those of us too young to remember "The Day the Music Died". And some golfer whose name I now am not sure of.

The big sports one to me was Roberto Clemente bringing earthquake relief aid to his home country while he was still a star baseball player, and indeed one of the first great Latin American players overall. I think Yankee catcher Thurman Munson's death was also in a plane crash.

And a little before my time but including someone my wife knew, the whole US figure skating team crashed in around 1961. And a whole college football team (Wichita State?) went down at some point as well.

Payne Stewart is who you are thinking of. That was crazy. Cabin depressurized and everyone died but the plane kept flying for several hours afterwards.

That was the name I thought I remembered, but I also remembered it as a solo flight. Thanks for bringing the actual facts!

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

Not sure if it's been posted yet, but Gordon Hayward it trending on Twitter for a Kobe story.

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Hayward was an opponent for Kobe's last game, in which he scored 60. As Kobe was attempting the FT that would be the 60th point, Hayward calmly and clearly committed a lane violation, just in case Kobe would need a do-over for that shot.

Class act, just like when IT let Pierce have a wide open 3 in his last game in Boston. Gordon will be asked about this tomorrow, but he will never admit to it, because he's a great guy.

Gordon saying he didn't do it on purpose.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[K For Three]

Ok, been a day. Going to mention that Kobe likely committed violent sexual assault on a young woman. Part is his legacy in my eyes, even if the media can’t or won’t mention it. Helluva basketball player, though. A supreme alpha. Didn’t play correctly but had a killer instinct on par with anyone. Can also make the case he was >= Jordan, as he did it in vs stiffer competition under rules that didn’t promote iso superstar play.

Actually, I'm not as sure it was a vicious assault as I once was.

The woman seemed to be genuinely conflicted as to whether what happened was consensual, and in such cases I've become inclined to look at whether the man has an evident pattern of similar behavior. If he does, then he's a repeat abuser. But if not, maybe it really was a consensual situation gone horribly wrong amidst bad communication.

And I'm not aware of such a pattern in Kobe's case (even though we can assume that, like many NBA players, he was a serial consensual adulterer).

I have always felt conflicted on the sexual assault situation myself......have not thought about it much for a while though.

If I had anything against Kobe though it was while I know he was an inspirational player to many, I didn't always love his advice for younger players. I thought the advice he had given Irving for starters was atrocious. Kyrie has pretty much spent his career trying to be a short Kobe Bryant on and off the court. Some claim Kobe told Kyrie he deserved his own team too, not being in the shadow of Lebron etc. And that Lebron wanted to be Kyrie's leader and have him play HIS way.

And the advice Bryant supposedly had about not letting a locker room get to confident, you have to have someone there to make guys uncomfortable and create conflict at times so things don't feel too easy etc.

A lot of younger players got sucked into the mamba mentality thing. While it all worked for Kobe, not sure everyone who idolized him should try to copy him which yeah includes Tatum.

Sad as hell Kobe died, but he had his weaknesses/faults as well.

[Captain_Caveman]

Ok, been a day. Going to mention that Kobe likely committed violent sexual assault on a young woman. Part is his legacy in my eyes, even if the media can’t or won’t mention it. Helluva basketball player, though. A supreme alpha. Didn’t play correctly but had a killer instinct on par with anyone. Can also make the case he was >= Jordan, as he did it in vs stiffer competition under rules that didn’t promote iso superstar play.

Actually, I'm not as sure it was a vicious assault as I once was.

The woman seemed to be genuinely conflicted as to whether what happened was consensual, and in such cases I've become inclined to look at whether the man has an evident pattern of similar behavior. If he does, then he's a repeat abuser. But if not, maybe it really was a consensual situation gone horribly wrong amidst bad communication.

And I'm not aware of such a pattern in Kobe's case (even though we can assume that, like many NBA players, he was a serial consensual adulterer).

From what I have read on this, answer is likely a lot easier. A guy into rough sex turned a consensual encounter into a non-consensual one and wouldn't stop after he was told no. I understand that the woman backed out of the trial, and hey, possible it didn't happen. But IMO, it likely did, and I don't need a second likely sexual assault to feel that way about the first likely one.

Media has been pretty silent on that. A Washington Post reporter even got suspended just for linking an article about the case.

While I get it, it is somewhat irksome in light of the lionizing going on. Still tragic for all involved, just saying. The dude was charged with felony sexual assault by police with key witnesses set to testify against him, before his defense team and deranged Kobe stans went so scorched earth with media smears and death threats against a 19yo woman that she eventually changed her mind about testifying.

tl;dr it's part of his legacy

[Fencer reregistered]

Ok, been a day. Going to mention that Kobe likely committed violent sexual assault on a young woman. Part is his legacy in my eyes, even if the media can’t or won’t mention it. Helluva basketball player, though. A supreme alpha. Didn’t play correctly but had a killer instinct on par with anyone. Can also make the case he was >= Jordan, as he did it in vs stiffer competition under rules that didn’t promote iso superstar play.

Actually, I'm not as sure it was a vicious assault as I once was.

The woman seemed to be genuinely conflicted as to whether what happened was consensual, and in such cases I've become inclined to look at whether the man has an evident pattern of similar behavior. If he does, then he's a repeat abuser. But if not, maybe it really was a consensual situation gone horribly wrong amidst bad communication.

And I'm not aware of such a pattern in Kobe's case (even though we can assume that, like many NBA players, he was a serial consensual adulterer).

From what I have read on this, answer is likely a lot easier. A guy into rough sex turned a consensual encounter into a non-consensual one and wouldn't stop after he was told no. I understand that the woman backed out of the trial, and hey, possible it didn't happen. But IMO, it likely did, and I don't need a second likely sexual assault to feel that way about the first likely one.

Media has been pretty silent on that. A Washington Post reporter even got suspended just for linking an article about the case.

While I get it, it is somewhat irksome in light of the lionizing going on. Still tragic for all involved, just saying. The dude was charged with felony sexual assault by police with key witnesses set to testify against him, before his defense team and deranged Kobe stans went so scorched earth with media smears and death threats against a 19yo woman that she eventually changed her mind about testifying.

tl;dr it's part of his legacy

Rough sex can most definitely be consensual. And a LOT of women are open to at least trying BDSM in some form. But without excellent communication, there's a big danger of it going too far. And it's obvious their acquaintance was too short to justify risking the roughness he engaged in.

So yes, it was a bad act, but quite possibly one of negligence rather than evil intent.

[K For Three]

Ok, been a day. Going to mention that Kobe likely committed violent sexual assault on a young woman. Part is his legacy in my eyes, even if the media can’t or won’t mention it. Helluva basketball player, though. A supreme alpha. Didn’t play correctly but had a killer instinct on par with anyone. Can also make the case he was >= Jordan, as he did it in vs stiffer competition under rules that didn’t promote iso superstar play.

Actually, I'm not as sure it was a vicious assault as I once was.

The woman seemed to be genuinely conflicted as to whether what happened was consensual, and in such cases I've become inclined to look at whether the man has an evident pattern of similar behavior. If he does, then he's a repeat abuser. But if not, maybe it really was a consensual situation gone horribly wrong amidst bad communication.

And I'm not aware of such a pattern in Kobe's case (even though we can assume that, like many NBA players, he was a serial consensual adulterer).

From what I have read on this, answer is likely a lot easier. A guy into rough sex turned a consensual encounter into a non-consensual one and wouldn't stop after he was told no. I understand that the woman backed out of the trial, and hey, possible it didn't happen. But IMO, it likely did, and I don't need a second likely sexual assault to feel that way about the first likely one.

Media has been pretty silent on that. A Washington Post reporter even got suspended just for linking an article about the case.

While I get it, it is somewhat irksome in light of the lionizing going on. Still tragic for all involved, just saying. The dude was charged with felony sexual assault by police with key witnesses set to testify against him, before his defense team and deranged Kobe stans went so scorched earth with media smears and death threats against a 19yo woman that she eventually changed her mind about testifying.

tl;dr it's part of his legacy

This is what I gathered too, from a female perspective here. I think the woman might have been giddy at the idea initially of hooking up with Kobe but he went too far for what she had anticipated would happen.

But yeah. No does mean no in the end.

And of course he was guilty and every female knew it, look at the ring he bought Vanessa afterward!!!!

[K For Three]

On the GB and on various places online they will come after you if you bring up the sexual assault case right now call you classless or even racist.

On the Celtics forum maybe we can touch on it briefly which we did.......

He should not have died though. The more I hear about this incident it seemed very preventable. Weather was poor and I think the helicopter was flying too low to turn around? Likely due to weather they should never have done this to begin with. But you don't think like that if flying so often to avoid traffic is part of your natural routine.

Don't really get though why the helicpoter just dropped the way it did.......

The only bad comment I saw in an article online that did make me giggle and I felt bad doing it was someone wrote "Larry Bird would have survived."

[threrf23]

From what I have read on this, answer is likely a lot easier. A guy into rough sex turned a consensual encounter into a non-consensual one and wouldn't stop after he was told no. I understand that the woman backed out of the trial, and hey, possible it didn't happen. But IMO, it likely did, and I don't need a second likely sexual assault to feel that way about the first likely one.

Media has been pretty silent on that. A Washington Post reporter even got suspended just for linking an article about the case.

While I get it, it is somewhat irksome in light of the lionizing going on. Still tragic for all involved, just saying. The dude was charged with felony sexual assault by police with key witnesses set to testify against him, before his defense team and deranged Kobe stans went so scorched earth with media smears and death threats against a 19yo woman that she eventually changed her mind about testifying.

tl;dr it's part of his legacy

The media is no longer silent on it. For example...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/27/sports/basketball/kobe-bryant-rape-case.html

The rumor had been that a conensual encounter turned nonconsensual when he decided to "enter" a second hole. But I just found myself looking at the police file and the victim's statements to police seem to contradict that narrative. The victim told police that during foreplay, she twice told Kobe "you need to leave." She said she would move in a different direction and that Kobe would move with her, and because he didn't stop she became fearful and decided to go along with it out of fear. This was before penetration. During penetration she said she was in pain and was crying, but she also never said no or tried to stop him. She said that eventually she got tired of what Kobe was doing, and pulled his hand away from his neck, at which point he stopped immediately.

Of course, even if we take this at face value, this is from her perspective and it sounds like there could have been room for misinterpretation.

[Triple7]

https://bleacherreport.com/post/boston-celtics/eda9f2f1-e4fd-499c-b95e-d93ae6bc6c6a

Gordon

[Fencer reregistered]

From what I have read on this, answer is likely a lot easier. A guy into rough sex turned a consensual encounter into a non-consensual one and wouldn't stop after he was told no. I understand that the woman backed out of the trial, and hey, possible it didn't happen. But IMO, it likely did, and I don't need a second likely sexual assault to feel that way about the first likely one.

Media has been pretty silent on that. A Washington Post reporter even got suspended just for linking an article about the case.

While I get it, it is somewhat irksome in light of the lionizing going on. Still tragic for all involved, just saying. The dude was charged with felony sexual assault by police with key witnesses set to testify against him, before his defense team and deranged Kobe stans went so scorched earth with media smears and death threats against a 19yo woman that she eventually changed her mind about testifying.

tl;dr it's part of his legacy

The media is no longer silent on it. For example...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/27/sports/basketball/kobe-bryant-rape-case.html

The rumor had been that a conensual encounter turned nonconsensual when he decided to "enter" a second hole. But I just found myself looking at the police file and the victim's statements to police seem to contradict that narrative. The victim told police that during foreplay, she twice told Kobe "you need to leave." She said she would move in a different direction and that Kobe would move with her, and because he didn't stop she became fearful and decided to go along with it out of fear. This was before penetration. During penetration she said she was in pain and was crying, but she also never said no or tried to stop him. She said that eventually she got tired of what Kobe was doing, and pulled his hand away from his neck, at which point he stopped immediately.

Of course, even if we take this at face value, this is from her perspective and it sounds like there could have been room for misinterpretation.

The witness did have some credibility issues too, as I recall. If I was right to think that, then no matter what else I was OK with him not being convicted of a crime. (Most extreme example of that principle for me: William Kennedy Smith and a woman went for a walk on the beach. She obviously planned to have sex with him. She obviously changed her mind. He obviously raped her. Yet she told a few evident lies after the fact, and so I felt it was right that he be acquitted.)

[Captain_Caveman]

From what I have read on this, answer is likely a lot easier. A guy into rough sex turned a consensual encounter into a non-consensual one and wouldn't stop after he was told no. I understand that the woman backed out of the trial, and hey, possible it didn't happen. But IMO, it likely did, and I don't need a second likely sexual assault to feel that way about the first likely one.

Media has been pretty silent on that. A Washington Post reporter even got suspended just for linking an article about the case.

While I get it, it is somewhat irksome in light of the lionizing going on. Still tragic for all involved, just saying. The dude was charged with felony sexual assault by police with key witnesses set to testify against him, before his defense team and deranged Kobe stans went so scorched earth with media smears and death threats against a 19yo woman that she eventually changed her mind about testifying.

tl;dr it's part of his legacy

The media is no longer silent on it. For example...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/27/sports/basketball/kobe-bryant-rape-case.html

The rumor had been that a conensual encounter turned nonconsensual when he decided to "enter" a second hole. But I just found myself looking at the police file and the victim's statements to police seem to contradict that narrative. The victim told police that during foreplay, she twice told Kobe "you need to leave." She said she would move in a different direction and that Kobe would move with her, and because he didn't stop she became fearful and decided to go along with it out of fear. This was before penetration. During penetration she said she was in pain and was crying, but she also never said no or tried to stop him. She said that eventually she got tired of what Kobe was doing, and pulled his hand away from his neck, at which point he stopped immediately.

Of course, even if we take this at face value, this is from her perspective and it sounds like there could have been room for misinterpretation.

Not going to harp on it, but read the daily beast article from a while back. Puts that incident, blurb, and linked article in a totally different context. For example, the Times article lauds Kobe's apology for going "farther than most public apologies go", with no mention of the fact that his "apology" was part of a legal agreement where she would then not testify or use said apology against him in any legal proceedings (essentially killing any criminal case against him).

Anyhow, sad for everyone involved, but the media whitewashing of -- and apologism for -- a likely violent sexual assault is gross.

[K For Three]

Basically the helicopter should not have been flying in those conditions. Way too foggy. No other helicopters were flying due to the weather.

And you also could argue there should have been a second pilot, many now say. Or with the type of helicopter it is, a second pilot is often needed.

[threrf23]

Watch on YouTube

[5InOfLouisville]

Ok, been a day. Going to mention that Kobe likely committed violent sexual assault on a young woman. Part of his legacy in my eyes, even if the media can’t or won’t mention it. Helluva basketball player, though. A supreme alpha. Didn’t play correctly but had a killer instinct on par with anyone. Can also make the case he was >= Jordan, as he did it in vs stiffer competition under rules that didn’t promote iso superstar play.

Couldnt agree more.

Ive read this entire thread to this point, and am a little put off by the various defenses of his actions, but its not my job to be a moral arbiter.

I just read the old report that got the wapo reporter suspended.

She kissed him willingly, and that is where the consent stopped. After that, he was told no every step of the way, multiple times. She tried moving his hands. She kept telling him to stop. His response was to push her hands away and to choke her harder. She cried through the intercourse and afterwards he threateningly told her to keep it quiet.

Is there a gray area? Not to me. You have a narcissist taking what he wants with no regard for the “lesser” human being.

Now, we can ask the question of “can someone mature and change?” I like to believe so, and he seems to have matured into a family-oriented adult. But that doesnt change the past, and as cave said, its part of his legacy.