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Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info

Moderators: Froob, sully00, The Comedian, Parliament10, ParticleMan, djFan71, canman1971

Assemble 2020-21 Roster (up to 17 Players) = Assume Keeping "Team Shamrock"

Hayward = Keep on Team
24
16%
R.Williams = Keep on Team
28
19%
Poirier = Keep on Team
4
3%
Theis/Kanter = Re-sign, if financially feasible
26
17%
Langford, G.Williams, Edwards = Keep Rookies, from 2019-20
21
14%
Upgrade = Waters & Fall to NBA Roster spots
14
9%
Green/Wanamaker/Ojeleye = Renew any of,
3
2%
Draft = # of Rookies (Including Two-Way Contracts)
11
7%
Trade = if it Brings in an Impactful Player.
16
11%
Other = Please Explain
3
2%
 
Total votes: 150

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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#41 » by djFan71 » Wed Mar 4, 2020 10:47 pm

Higgs Boston wrote:Warriors aren't going to trade wiggins and the pick for Hayward, maybe without the pick but no way they trade the pick.

Bleeding Green wrote:Wiggins is so **** bad. No. Not unless the pick were completely unprotected and I had inside info that KAT was going to miss the entire season.

OK, I got the full range of expected responses right off the bat. :)

From just reading it sounded like he did have a strong start, esp on D, but then regressed back to his mean this season. I'm not sure I'd gamble he'd be "good Wiggins" for the rest of that contract. Maybe BOS situation being so much better than MIN makes the light stay on, but I definitely don't risk it without the pick. I have outside info that the Wolves are building around Russell & KAT, so I think the pick will be pretty good. I'd be shocked if they are in playoff contention.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#42 » by Bleeding Green » Wed Mar 4, 2020 10:55 pm

Yeah Wiggins had like 3 or 4 good games to start this season and everyone was hyped. Then he reverted to what he's always been: athletic wing with lame effort, doesn't leverage his athleticism in any useful way, terrible shot selection, poor scoring efficiency. Just bad. And you have to pay him 30+ million a year, locking you into luxury tax hell. If the Celtics were in dire need of someone like this and had no championship window or something, maybe I'd take a risk.

If you can show me one player who has been as bad as Wiggins has for 16,000 minutes and then suddenly 'got it', I'd love to see it.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#43 » by djFan71 » Wed Mar 4, 2020 11:13 pm

I will point you back to my caveat. Just spitballing here, not advocating by any means. The "it actually clicks" scenario is tantalizing, but I tend to agree if you haven't given the effort to be a better defender yet, you lack the pride / self respect to be able to just turn it on.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#44 » by djFan71 » Mon Mar 9, 2020 7:20 am

More spitballing. Consolidation trades with upgrading in draft and taking on salary:

Poirier, Edwards, BOS, MIL (both signed) for Aminu, ORL first (unsigned).

We upgrade 25 & 30 to 15 and relieve ORL of their burdensome contract (2 more years fully guaranteed), while hoping Aminu bounces back from his injury (and playing in ORL's no spacing universe).

Smart, Jaylen, Hayward, Tatum, Theis
Kemba, Langford, Aminu, Grant, Rob
MEM, ORL, MLE/vet min, Waters, Tacko.

Pick wings like Vassell, P Williams, Saddiq, Ramsey, Nesmith, etc.
Assumes Kanter opts out, but if he opts in maybe you do something with him/FA/waters/tacko somehow. Or trade him to ORL as well and don't sign the picks, they like centers...

We'd be into the lux tax, so we might as well go for it and use the tax payer MLE. With another year of growth for all the young guys and adding vets like Aminu and MLE we could be a real threat. I switched Kemba to the bench as his ultimate role of microwave scorer off the bench.

Other options
- Thad Young, but CHI pick is too good. Could maybe get lotto-protected 2021 rolling for a couple years.
- Corey Joseph and SAC pick. Would be better actually since he is only guaranteed $2.4M for 21-22 and SAC pick is better. But, makes them less likely to do it as well.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#45 » by big-shot-ROB » Mon Mar 9, 2020 10:42 am

Wiggins for Hayward? This is board has gone mad.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#46 » by Bleeding Green » Mon Mar 9, 2020 4:55 pm

djFan71 wrote:More spitballing. Consolidation trades with upgrading in draft and taking on salary:

Poirier, Edwards, BOS, MIL (both signed) for Aminu, ORL first (unsigned).

We upgrade 25 & 30 to 15 and relieve ORL of their burdensome contract (2 more years fully guaranteed), while hoping Aminu bounces back from his injury (and playing in ORL's no spacing universe).

Smart, Jaylen, Hayward, Tatum, Theis
Kemba, Langford, Aminu, Grant, Rob
MEM, ORL, MLE/vet min, Waters, Tacko.

Pick wings like Vassell, P Williams, Saddiq, Ramsey, Nesmith, etc.
Assumes Kanter opts out, but if he opts in maybe you do something with him/FA/waters/tacko somehow. Or trade him to ORL as well and don't sign the picks, they like centers...

We'd be into the lux tax, so we might as well go for it and use the tax payer MLE. With another year of growth for all the young guys and adding vets like Aminu and MLE we could be a real threat. I switched Kemba to the bench as his ultimate role of microwave scorer off the bench.

Other options
- Thad Young, but CHI pick is too good. Could maybe get lotto-protected 2021 rolling for a couple years.
- Corey Joseph and SAC pick. Would be better actually since he is only guaranteed $2.4M for 21-22 and SAC pick is better. But, makes them less likely to do it as well.

Are you actively looking for mediocre players who can't shoot on purpose? Kemba to the bench? Where would Al-Farouq Aminu even play on a 2020-21 Celtics team? Even in a highly optimistic view of him he's behind Tatum/Hayward/Brown/Grant, and that assumes Langford doesn't progress at all. Certainly he was an interesting role player when he was on a rookie-scale contract, but at age 30 and worsening stats/health? I would bet on him being the worst player on the roster. My dude has a sub-40 TS% on the season, has barely seen the floor the entire season, tore his miniscus a few months ago.

I like Thad Young in a vacuum, but he's going to be 32 and I don't see him doing well in a Celtics offense. I dunno, the game is skewing younger and younger, further and further to the perimeter I don't want to bet on older players, who don't shoot well, on larger contracts having bounceback years.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#47 » by djFan71 » Mon Mar 9, 2020 5:19 pm

Bleeding Green wrote:
djFan71 wrote:More spitballing. Consolidation trades with upgrading in draft and taking on salary:

Poirier, Edwards, BOS, MIL (both signed) for Aminu, ORL first (unsigned).

We upgrade 25 & 30 to 15 and relieve ORL of their burdensome contract (2 more years fully guaranteed), while hoping Aminu bounces back from his injury (and playing in ORL's no spacing universe).

Smart, Jaylen, Hayward, Tatum, Theis
Kemba, Langford, Aminu, Grant, Rob
MEM, ORL, MLE/vet min, Waters, Tacko.

Pick wings like Vassell, P Williams, Saddiq, Ramsey, Nesmith, etc.
Assumes Kanter opts out, but if he opts in maybe you do something with him/FA/waters/tacko somehow. Or trade him to ORL as well and don't sign the picks, they like centers...

We'd be into the lux tax, so we might as well go for it and use the tax payer MLE. With another year of growth for all the young guys and adding vets like Aminu and MLE we could be a real threat. I switched Kemba to the bench as his ultimate role of microwave scorer off the bench.

Other options
- Thad Young, but CHI pick is too good. Could maybe get lotto-protected 2021 rolling for a couple years.
- Corey Joseph and SAC pick. Would be better actually since he is only guaranteed $2.4M for 21-22 and SAC pick is better. But, makes them less likely to do it as well.

Are you actively looking for mediocre players who can't shoot on purpose? Kemba to the bench? Where would Al-Farouq Aminu even play on a 2020-21 Celtics team? Even in a highly optimistic view of him he's behind Tatum/Hayward/Brown/Grant, and that assumes Langford doesn't progress at all. Certainly he was an interesting role player when he was on a rookie-scale contract, but at age 30 and worsening stats/health? I would bet on him being the worst player on the roster. My dude has a sub-40 TS% on the season, has barely seen the floor the entire season, tore his miniscus a few months ago.

I like Thad Young in a vacuum, but he's going to be 32 and I don't see him doing well in a Celtics offense. I dunno, the game is skewing younger and younger, further and further to the perimeter I don't want to bet on older players, who don't shoot well, on larger contracts having bounceback years.

It's about upgrading/consolidating the picks. I think you can get 2 solid wings with picks in the 15-20 range. Maybe a tall PG. And actually have roster spots for them. The players are bad contracts to take back that could possibly be mildly useful, but maybe not. The trades aren't about them. They're the cost of upgrading the picks and clearing some roster spots.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#48 » by Bleeding Green » Mon Mar 9, 2020 5:22 pm

Maybe you have a much better feel for this draft than me, but do you get a much better player at 15 than 25? Why do they want to clear Carsen Edwards' roster spot? He makes the minimum and is signed for 3 more years, he's like the most valuable roster spot currently on the Celtics in terms of upside:salary. And Poirier is the break-glass-in-case-of-emergency big, I don't think you need to clear his roster spot either since you're just going to replace him with a similar player anyway. Some probably bum who can play in 10-15 games and be a victory cigar.

It all seems like a lot to pay to move up ten spots in a draft, and still be outside the lottery. To take on bad contracts and lose cheap, young players, and the 30th pick to go from 25-15? If the Celtics really need roster spots, just cut these two players (Edwards, Poirier), I'd rather they just do that.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#49 » by djFan71 » Mon Mar 9, 2020 5:36 pm

Bleeding Green wrote:Maybe you have a much better feel for this draft than me, but do you get a better player at 15 than 25? Why do they want to clear Carsen Edwards roster spot? He makes the minimum and is signed for 3 more years, he's like the most valuable roster spot currently on the Celtics in terms of upside:salary.

I don't at all. :) I just go by the idea that picking before 10 other people gives you a better chance at not having your guy grabbed. And, it's situational. We just have too many guys & picks. Literally can not roster them all, esp when you factor in Tacko & Waters on top of 5 picks in this draft (unless we get top 5 record). Much less develop them all with PT (not that that's the only way to develop, but eventually you wanna play guys). Something's gotta give. And, 2 picks in the teens still gives Ainge 2 shots at getting someone. Instead of 1 in the teens, 2 late firsts.

I think we need to make some sort of trade like this. Not necessarily these exact trades. But it's really hard looking at salaries to come up with a scenario where some team wants to give you something useful for just Poirier & MIL pick, for instance. The guys in that salary range are either young or no good or both, and there's no incentive for teams to move them. So, I went for teams with slightly better picks and vet contracts they would want to unload.

All 3 of the vets aren't necessarily the point of the trade, but were all useful role players at one point. If they get back to that and become 11th-12th man while we upgrade the picks, that's still useful with injuries, but really just a bonus.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#50 » by djFan71 » Mon Mar 9, 2020 5:37 pm

But, you may be right. Aminu contract is pretty bad for that small a pick upgrade. Maybe they throw in a future 2nd. Or you do one of the other deals. I might like the SAC one the best. But, SAC may not...
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#51 » by Bleeding Green » Mon Mar 9, 2020 5:53 pm

I'm a quantity over quality guy in terms of draft picks. Give me two chances instead of one. Everyone (EVERYONE) is trash at evaluating talent so why reduce your chances unless it's for the next Markelle Fultz (hey Sixers fans, this is a joke at your expense). If Ainge consolidates assets, it's to improve the top-end of the roster, not the 10th roster spot.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#52 » by Parliament10 » Mon Mar 9, 2020 6:08 pm

Yeah. It looks like our Top 6 are solid. Though, we could use either a Bona Fide PF, or a better option at Center.
But I agree, that we'd be trying to improve near the Top, and not near the Bottom.

I'd like to Draft 2 x 1st Rounders, and Trade the 3rd one out of the 1st Round.
And end up with another 2nd Rounder, and a future pick.

I think that the Celtics specifically, and the NBA in general (to some degree), is moving more toward going younger.
I believe that Wanamaker, Ojelye and Green won't be back. Poirier is starting to impress me, in his G-League play.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#53 » by djFan71 » Mon Mar 9, 2020 6:09 pm

We have 11 guys with guaranteed $ next year. Well, 10, but I'm assuming Hayward is back some way.
3 first rounders.
2 current 2-ways we don't want to lose.
A 12th that can opt-in (Kanter).
Possibly an MLE.

That's up to 18 spots. Then 1 or 2 2nd rounders - which we can just 2-way - so no big deal.

The "don't consolidate approach" is hope Kanter opts out, cut Poirier, 3 picks, sign Waters, Fall. So, it's doable.

I think your top 8 is solid with 2 of Romeo/Rob/Grant. So really, you are looking at upgrading that 9th, 10th spot. Which really is your 7th or 8th guy for most of the season with injuries.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#54 » by Parliament10 » Mon Mar 9, 2020 6:17 pm

djFan71 wrote:We have 11 guys with guaranteed $ next year. Well, 10, but I'm assuming Hayward is back some way.
3 first rounders.
2 current 2-ways we don't want to lose.
A 12th that can opt-in (Kanter).
Possibly an MLE.

That's up to 18 spots. Then 1 or 2 2nd rounders - which we can just 2-way - so no big deal.

The "don't consolidate approach" is hope Kanter opts out, cut Poirier, 3 picks, sign Waters, Fall. So, it's doable.

I think your top 8 is solid with 2 of Romeo/Rob/Grant. So really, you are looking at upgrading that 9th, 10th spot. Which really is your 7th or 8th guy for most of the season with injuries.

The thing is though, that a lot of these what I call "Kids" show some promise.
And in fact, it takes like 3-4 years to determine if they are going to be good players.

Edwards - Langford - G.Williams - R.Williams
Waters - Fall, and even Poirier.

Poirier made some outside shots and swished a 3pt'er in his last G-League game.
I'd say keep these guys. Plus they're low cost, too.

Wanamaker - Green - Ojeleye, are a different story.
And Hayward, for me, doesn't fit this team going forward.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#55 » by djFan71 » Mon Mar 9, 2020 6:36 pm

Parliament10 wrote:
djFan71 wrote:We have 11 guys with guaranteed $ next year. Well, 10, but I'm assuming Hayward is back some way.
3 first rounders.
2 current 2-ways we don't want to lose.
A 12th that can opt-in (Kanter).
Possibly an MLE.

That's up to 18 spots. Then 1 or 2 2nd rounders - which we can just 2-way - so no big deal.

The "don't consolidate approach" is hope Kanter opts out, cut Poirier, 3 picks, sign Waters, Fall. So, it's doable.

I think your top 8 is solid with 2 of Romeo/Rob/Grant. So really, you are looking at upgrading that 9th, 10th spot. Which really is your 7th or 8th guy for most of the season with injuries.

The thing is though, that a lot of these what I call "Kids" show some promise.
And in fact, it takes like 3-4 years to determine if they are going to be good players.

Edwards - Langford - G.Williams - R.Williams
Waters - Fall, and even Poirier.

Poirier made some outside shots and swished a 3pt'er in his last G-League game.
I'd say keep these guys. Plus they're low cost, too.

Wanamaker - Green - Ojeleye, are a different story.
And Hayward, for me, doesn't fit this team going forward.

I don't disagree (except the Hayward part). But, at some point you gotta focus. Next year's team has a real title chance. I don't necessarily want to roll with just a young guy bench again. Not saying any of those trades above is the answer, just throwing out ideas. At some point you gotta give to get. If you consolidate and Edwards goes off for his new team, that's the way it goes. But if pick 15 for us is way better than 25 or 30 - still a win in my book. Or you sign an MLE/vet min to one of the open spots and he is a rotation guy all year, that's a win.

Spots 11-15 are for developing young guys with potential. Not spots 8-15. Maybe you don't do any of my trades, but at least trade picks/Edwards/Poirier for future assets and use the MLE. That's fine too.

This 9 is your core (no order): Hayward, Kemba, Smart, Tatum, Brown, Theis, Langford, G Williams, R Williams
Kanter probably opts in. That's 10.
Our best pick this year and an MLE rounds out 12 man rotation.
Maybe a vet min gets you to 13.

So, you got Edwards, Poirier, Fall, Waters, 2 other firsts and 2 seconds to use to fill 2-3 spots.
Or trade to consolidate, or get future picks, or whatever.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#56 » by Parliament10 » Mon Mar 9, 2020 6:43 pm

djFan71 wrote:
Parliament10 wrote:
djFan71 wrote:We have 11 guys with guaranteed $ next year. Well, 10, but I'm assuming Hayward is back some way.
3 first rounders.
2 current 2-ways we don't want to lose.
A 12th that can opt-in (Kanter).
Possibly an MLE.

That's up to 18 spots. Then 1 or 2 2nd rounders - which we can just 2-way - so no big deal.

The "don't consolidate approach" is hope Kanter opts out, cut Poirier, 3 picks, sign Waters, Fall. So, it's doable.

I think your top 8 is solid with 2 of Romeo/Rob/Grant. So really, you are looking at upgrading that 9th, 10th spot. Which really is your 7th or 8th guy for most of the season with injuries.

The thing is though, that a lot of these what I call "Kids" show some promise.
And in fact, it takes like 3-4 years to determine if they are going to be good players.

Edwards - Langford - G.Williams - R.Williams
Waters - Fall, and even Poirier.

Poirier made some outside shots and swished a 3pt'er in his last G-League game.
I'd say keep these guys. Plus they're low cost, too.

Wanamaker - Green - Ojeleye, are a different story.
And Hayward, for me, doesn't fit this team going forward.

I don't disagree (except the Hayward part). But, at some point you gotta focus. Next year's team has a real title chance. I don't necessarily want to roll with just a young guy bench again. Not saying any of those trades above is the answer, just throwing out ideas. At some point you gotta give to get. If you consolidate and Edwards goes off for his new team, that's the way it goes. But if pick 15 for us is way better than 25 or 30 - still a win in my book. Or you sign an MLE/vet min to one of the open spots and he is a rotation guy all year, that's a win.

Spots 11-15 are for developing young guys with potential. Not spots 8-15. Maybe you don't do any of my trades, but at least trade picks/Edwards/Poirier for future assets and use the MLE. That's fine too.

This 9 is your core (no order): Hayward, Kemba, Smart, Tatum, Brown, Theis, Langford, G Williams, R Williams
Kanter probably opts in. That's 10.
Our best pick this year and an MLE rounds out 12 man rotation.
Maybe a vet min gets you to 13.

So, you got Edwards, Poirier, Fall, Waters, 2 other firsts and 2 seconds to use to fill 2-3 spots.
Or trade to consolidate, or get future picks, or whatever.

OK. I see your point there. -- I mean, if we have too many players, then we do have to do something.
Though, I don't think that we should force it, too much. Danny will figure it out, and trade if it's worth it.

It always takes awhile to see if players pan out.
I think that all of the younger players were signed, with that idea in mind.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#57 » by djFan71 » Mon Mar 9, 2020 6:57 pm

Parliament10 wrote:OK. I see your point there. -- I mean, if we have too many players, then we do have to do something.
Though, I don't think that we should force it, too much. Danny will figure it out, and trade if it's worth it.

It always takes awhile to see if players pan out.
I think that all of the younger players were signed, with that idea in mind.

Yeah, my bad salary takeback ideas probably fall into the forcing it category. I'm more on the future assets, use the MLE kick today. It's just tough to get value on those trades when other teams know we need to do it.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#58 » by djFan71 » Mon Mar 9, 2020 7:16 pm

Though..... I still like the SAC one. :)

Edwards, Poirier, signed BOS & MIL for Joseph & SAC first.

Kemba, Tatum, Hayward, Brown, Theis
Smart, Joseph, Langford, MLE, R Williams
G Williams, MEM, SAC, Waters, Fall

No idea if SAC goes for it, but if they subscribe to the BG draft theory they would. They get basically 3 late firsts (counting Edwards) for a late lotto and a contract they want out of.

Joseph would be solid as a 3rd point. MLE on a (s)wing.
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#59 » by Parliament10 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:03 pm

Well. Any other ideas, since we've got plenty of time now?
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Re: Assemble Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Using Current Info ~ (Pre-2019-20 Playoffs) 

Post#60 » by snowman » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:14 am

IMO:
Kemba, Brown, Hayward (in some form) Tatum, Theis, Smart, Langford, G. Will and Time Lord, along with Waters and Fall will all be on the big squad next season. That's 11 to start with. I think Kanter will opt out to try to get more money, and Boston will let him walk. So again IMO, Poirier, Edwards, Semi, Wannamaker, Green and 3 FRP's will fight for the final 4 spots.

I hope Danny has seen his error in such a weak bench, so I would like to see, out of the 5 players on the bubble, only Poirier and Edwards back because of already being under contract and their potential. Boston knew Poirier and Edwards were going to take this whole year to get used to the speed of the NBA, that's way they signed them for more than 1 year. Semi, Wannamaker and Green need to be released, traded or what ever. They can be replaced with the 3 FRP's.

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