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Trade Ideas Thread

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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#81 » by Curmudgeon » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:24 pm

Meh. Name me a team with 5 players who in the aggregate are better than Tatum, Brown, Walker, Hayward and Smart. Find the next Bam Adebayo, Pascal Siakam or even Montrezl Harrell to provide rim protection and rebounding and you will have a dynasty-- even if Hayward leaves.

BTW, my guess is that Hayward opts in, then agrees to a long term deal along the lines of what Smart got. But if I'm trading anyone, it's him. Not sure what he brings back, though.
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#82 » by Parliament10 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:42 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:Meh. Name me a team with 5 players who in the aggregate are better than Tatum, Brown, Walker, Hayward and Smart. Find the next Bam Adebayo, Pascal Siakam or even Montrezl Harrell to provide rim protection and rebounding and you will have a dynasty-- even if Hayward leaves.

BTW, my guess is that Hayward opts in, then agrees to a long term deal along the lines of what Smart got. But if I'm trading anyone, it's him. Not sure what he brings back, though.

You got a point. They have their "Super" Backup already built-in.

Kemba - Brown - (Hayward) - Tatum - Theis
Smart, as Super 6th-Man.
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#83 » by hugepatsfan » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:07 pm

AN idea I had in the general transactions thread:

Basis for idea: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2020/06/pacers-interested-in-gordon-hayward.html

We saw an example of how this works in the NBA with Horford in Boston. He had a huge player option most thought he'd pick up. But PHI communicated to him through back channels that there was an offer out there for him that, while a decline in pay for that year, was enticing enough to opt out for. In order to sign Hayward IND would have to make some trades to accommodate. I think the reporter in the article Is wrong that they'd give up Turner or Sabonis for that though. Here's a deal that I think works for them, Boston and Orlando:

BOS gives: F Gordon Hayward (3 year deal S&T), G Carsen Edwards, 2021 1st rounder (lottery protected, top 10 protected in 2022, top 5 protected in 2023, unprotected in 2024)
BOS gets: F Aaron Gordon

Why it makes sense for BOS: First and foremost, this deal saves them about $16M in salary for '20-21. It also frees up the third PG spot for them to sign G-league standout Tremont Waters to an NBA deal over Edwards, who disappointed in year 1. Going from Hayward to Gordon is a downgrade in talent but it is a little bit of a "smoother" fit with Brown/Tatum, especially if Gordon's shooting gets back to the 2 years prior to '19-20. This deal would let them likely get below the luxury tax line for '20-21 and put off repeater penalties by a year. And then Gordon's second year is pretty affordable so even though the Tatum extension will push them into the tax for '21-22, it won't be monstrous. That means big time savings over the next two years with no tax/1st year tax over tax/repeater tax if they tried to keep Hayward and doesn't have the total loss of talent if they didn't keep him. The 1st round pick is the cost of those financial savings.

ORL gives: F Aaron Gordon
ORL gets: F TJ Warren, G Jeremy Lamb, G Carsen Edwards, 2021 1st rounder (lottery protected, top 10 protected in 2022, top 5 protected in 2023, unprotected in 2024)

Why it makes sense for ORL: The Magic have an imperfect fit with Gordon/Issac at SF/PF. TJ Warren is a good, solid player who would fit very nicely next to Isaac. He's a quality scorer/shooter and has become a solid enough defender. He's definitely good enough with Issac next to him. Lamb is probably missing most of '20-21 with injury and then in '21-22 you'd expect to have limited effectiveness. So he's just salary to make things work as opposed to a real asset here. Edwards is just a free flier to gamble on maybe panning out as a bench scorer. Warren/Lamb/Edwards will make $23.8M in '20-21 and $25.0M in '21-22 compared to $18.1M and $16.4M over those 2 years. So the 1st rounder from Boston is to cover the cost of those salary deals. ORL's cap sheet still is in ok shape and in '21-22 they'd have two expiring deals in Aminu/Lamb that could be moved if needed (or used as part of a trade for an upgrade). So they better balance their roster and add a pick.

IND gives: F TJ Warren, G Jeremy Lamb
IND receives: F Gordon Hayward (3 year deal S&T)

Why it makes sense for IND: As I mentioned with ORL's write up above, Lamb is probably missing most of '20-21 with injury and then in '21-22 you'd expect to have limited effectiveness. Unfortunately, what once looked like a good deal probably won't bring any more value to IND. Warren is a very solid player but Hayward is just better in all phases. Warren/Lamb will make $22.25M in '20-21 and $23.19M in '21-22. With salary matching rules IND will be able to Hayward anything up to $27.25M in year 1 of his S&T deal. Considering the outgoing money over the next two years it wouldn't be much of a salary spike for IND to upgrade their starting lineup. That third year is when this deal could have IND over the luxury tax line if an Oladpip extension comes. But that's a 1 year thing to manage down the road which is kind of the cost of competing.


All in all, I think this allows IND and ORL to improve their starting lineups. IND by virtue of a talent upgrade, ORL by virtue of roster fit. BOS gets worse but makes their roster a little more financially stable.
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#84 » by snowman » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:47 pm

I really don't think Boston wants to trade Hayward. I think they will bite the bullet this next season, or rework a deal for future years. I would be surprised if he would try and pull a Horford on us.
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#85 » by wco81 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:33 pm

He'd have to give a discount, after the Celtics pay Tatum.

But how much? He's having one of his best seasons, with the highest TS% among the starters.

So what kind of discount will he give to not opt in on a $34 million salary for next season?

Is this going to be like Horford, Celtics assuming he'd resign with them for a discount instead of opting into a big player-option but some other team offers more on a multiyear deal than the team was willing to pay?
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#86 » by bucknersrevenge » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:31 pm

wco81 wrote:He'd have to give a discount, after the Celtics pay Tatum.

But how much? He's having one of his best seasons, with the highest TS% among the starters.

So what kind of discount will he give to not opt in on a $34 million salary for next season?

Is this going to be like Horford, Celtics assuming he'd resign with them for a discount instead of opting into a big player-option but some other team offers more on a multiyear deal than the team was willing to pay?


Agreed. I think the only way Hayward stays here is if he chooses to take a significant discount from his current salary. We can offer him another 3 years or whatever at maybe 20M per and he gets more total money, a chance to stay with a coach that knows and believes in him, an opportunity to be a title contender without having to carry the load late in his career. Or he can take his chances like Horford did. How's that workin out? Love Hayward but Danny has to play hardball here somewhat. You just can't pay the guys who's 4th in Usage on your team a ton of money, especially not now. It's just not responsible.
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#87 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:38 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:AN idea I had in the general transactions thread:

Basis for idea: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2020/06/pacers-interested-in-gordon-hayward.html

We saw an example of how this works in the NBA with Horford in Boston. He had a huge player option most thought he'd pick up. But PHI communicated to him through back channels that there was an offer out there for him that, while a decline in pay for that year, was enticing enough to opt out for. In order to sign Hayward IND would have to make some trades to accommodate. I think the reporter in the article Is wrong that they'd give up Turner or Sabonis for that though. Here's a deal that I think works for them, Boston and Orlando:

BOS gives: F Gordon Hayward (3 year deal S&T), G Carsen Edwards, 2021 1st rounder (lottery protected, top 10 protected in 2022, top 5 protected in 2023, unprotected in 2024)
BOS gets: F Aaron Gordon

Why it makes sense for BOS: First and foremost, this deal saves them about $16M in salary for '20-21. It also frees up the third PG spot for them to sign G-league standout Tremont Waters to an NBA deal over Edwards, who disappointed in year 1. Going from Hayward to Gordon is a downgrade in talent but it is a little bit of a "smoother" fit with Brown/Tatum, especially if Gordon's shooting gets back to the 2 years prior to '19-20. This deal would let them likely get below the luxury tax line for '20-21 and put off repeater penalties by a year. And then Gordon's second year is pretty affordable so even though the Tatum extension will push them into the tax for '21-22, it won't be monstrous. That means big time savings over the next two years with no tax/1st year tax over tax/repeater tax if they tried to keep Hayward and doesn't have the total loss of talent if they didn't keep him. The 1st round pick is the cost of those financial savings.

ORL gives: F Aaron Gordon
ORL gets: F TJ Warren, G Jeremy Lamb, G Carsen Edwards, 2021 1st rounder (lottery protected, top 10 protected in 2022, top 5 protected in 2023, unprotected in 2024)

Why it makes sense for ORL: The Magic have an imperfect fit with Gordon/Issac at SF/PF. TJ Warren is a good, solid player who would fit very nicely next to Isaac. He's a quality scorer/shooter and has become a solid enough defender. He's definitely good enough with Issac next to him. Lamb is probably missing most of '20-21 with injury and then in '21-22 you'd expect to have limited effectiveness. So he's just salary to make things work as opposed to a real asset here. Edwards is just a free flier to gamble on maybe panning out as a bench scorer. Warren/Lamb/Edwards will make $23.8M in '20-21 and $25.0M in '21-22 compared to $18.1M and $16.4M over those 2 years. So the 1st rounder from Boston is to cover the cost of those salary deals. ORL's cap sheet still is in ok shape and in '21-22 they'd have two expiring deals in Aminu/Lamb that could be moved if needed (or used as part of a trade for an upgrade). So they better balance their roster and add a pick.

IND gives: F TJ Warren, G Jeremy Lamb
IND receives: F Gordon Hayward (3 year deal S&T)

Why it makes sense for IND: As I mentioned with ORL's write up above, Lamb is probably missing most of '20-21 with injury and then in '21-22 you'd expect to have limited effectiveness. Unfortunately, what once looked like a good deal probably won't bring any more value to IND. Warren is a very solid player but Hayward is just better in all phases. Warren/Lamb will make $22.25M in '20-21 and $23.19M in '21-22. With salary matching rules IND will be able to Hayward anything up to $27.25M in year 1 of his S&T deal. Considering the outgoing money over the next two years it wouldn't be much of a salary spike for IND to upgrade their starting lineup. That third year is when this deal could have IND over the luxury tax line if an Oladpip extension comes. But that's a 1 year thing to manage down the road which is kind of the cost of competing.


All in all, I think this allows IND and ORL to improve their starting lineups. IND by virtue of a talent upgrade, ORL by virtue of roster fit. BOS gets worse but makes their roster a little more financially stable.


This makes a ton of sense to me. The only other thing I’d add to it is that I could see Hayward making this type of move— he came here looking for a bigger role and more exposure and he’s just not going to get it with Tatum and Brown’s emergence. I also just don't think a 140M+ payroll is tenable and the ability to get to the low 120’s is something I could see us doing.
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#88 » by GoCeltics123 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:27 pm

Aaron Gordon for Gordon Hayward is a major downgrade; I know it's hard for some to believe, but let's be real: Aaron Gordon isn't good. He shoots 43% from the field, 30% from three, and is only a decent defender. Yuck.

Unless Hayward is leaving no matter what, I have ZERO interest in that deal. ZERO.
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#89 » by The Comedian » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:52 pm

GoCeltics123 wrote:Aaron Gordon for Gordon Hayward is a major downgrade; I know it's hard for some to believe, but let's be real: Aaron Gordon isn't good. He shoots 43% from the field, 30% from three, and is only a decent defender. Yuck.

Unless Hayward is leaving no matter what, I have ZERO interest in that deal. ZERO.


So.... exactly how much interest would you have in that deal?
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#90 » by Parliament10 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:05 pm

The Comedian wrote:
GoCeltics123 wrote:Aaron Gordon for Gordon Hayward is a major downgrade; I know it's hard for some to believe, but let's be real: Aaron Gordon isn't good. He shoots 43% from the field, 30% from three, and is only a decent defender. Yuck.

Unless Hayward is leaving no matter what, I have ZERO interest in that deal. ZERO.


So.... exactly how much interest would you have in that deal?

I'm All for an Aaron Gordon trade. I'm actually for ANY trade that involves Hayward.
I don't like his money, and I don't like that he's just our 4th Option.

Hayward would do a better service to himself, by becoming a higher option on another team.
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#91 » by GoCeltics123 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:29 pm

The Comedian wrote:
GoCeltics123 wrote:Aaron Gordon for Gordon Hayward is a major downgrade; I know it's hard for some to believe, but let's be real: Aaron Gordon isn't good. He shoots 43% from the field, 30% from three, and is only a decent defender. Yuck.

Unless Hayward is leaving no matter what, I have ZERO interest in that deal. ZERO.


So.... exactly how much interest would you have in that deal?

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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#92 » by captain green » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:59 pm

What can we get for Hayward, langford and Edwards and one of our picks?
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#93 » by Parliament10 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:20 pm

captain green wrote:What can we get for Hayward, langford and Edwards and one of our picks?

Why give up Langford? -- I'd leave him out, and expect 2 decent players back.
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#94 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:26 pm

GoCeltics123 wrote:Aaron Gordon for Gordon Hayward is a major downgrade; I know it's hard for some to believe, but let's be real: Aaron Gordon isn't good. He shoots 43% from the field, 30% from three, and is only a decent defender. Yuck.

Unless Hayward is leaving no matter what, I have ZERO interest in that deal. ZERO.


I think the reality is that were scheduled to have about 140-150M in salary commitments for next year and thats just not a tenable situation in a shrinking cap. Were just not going to pay that much in tax— it doesn't make sense for our roster when no one would even argue that were close to title favorites.

Were going to have to shed salary. I’d guess we also would like a switchable PF to spare Tatum. AG is probably our best bet to kill two birds with one stone.

Its a talent downgrade, one I wouldn't recommend if the pandemic didnt happen. But it did, their wont be fans at stadiums next year and were going to need to cut salary to adjust to the falling cap. Hayward is the logical move.
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#95 » by captain green » Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:44 pm

Parliament10 wrote:
captain green wrote:What can we get for Hayward, langford and Edwards and one of our picks?

Why give up Langford? -- I'd leave him out, and expect 2 decent players back.

I think I'm including Langford because were likely to draft that same position due to it being loaded at that position in the draft. Also because he has more upside than edwarfs. And Hayward has injury bug and is 30. Plus I'd rather keep green if I'm being completely honest. Jb and smart with green and drafted player taking the minutes at sg.
Although I've read rumors that we are grooming langford as back up pg if that is true than yes I keep him.
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#96 » by hugepatsfan » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:23 am

GoCeltics123 wrote:Aaron Gordon for Gordon Hayward is a major downgrade; I know it's hard for some to believe, but let's be real: Aaron Gordon isn't good. He shoots 43% from the field, 30% from three, and is only a decent defender. Yuck.

Unless Hayward is leaving no matter what, I have ZERO interest in that deal. ZERO.


Definitely a downgrade but the deal was made for finances. Keeping Hayward on a long term deal means luxury tax in '20-21, then repeater tax in in '21-22 and '22-23. Two years of repeater tax penalties are pretty heavy.

Even if we just let Hayward playout the year, that doesn't necessarily save us. Depending on COVID, even if we let Hayward walk next year we might have to end up letting Theis walk as well to avoid the repeater tax.

I'm just not sure how realistic keeping Hayward long term is. So rather than being forced to let him walk for nothing I'd rather try and swing a deal that helps us stay under the tax for one more year. Because that makes it more feasible to actually replace him, even if it's a downgrade like A. Gordon, as opposed to him walking for nothing.
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#97 » by bucknersrevenge » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:46 am

hugepatsfan wrote:
GoCeltics123 wrote:Aaron Gordon for Gordon Hayward is a major downgrade; I know it's hard for some to believe, but let's be real: Aaron Gordon isn't good. He shoots 43% from the field, 30% from three, and is only a decent defender. Yuck.

Unless Hayward is leaving no matter what, I have ZERO interest in that deal. ZERO.


Definitely a downgrade but the deal was made for finances. Keeping Hayward on a long term deal means luxury tax in '20-21, then repeater tax in in '21-22 and '22-23. Two years of repeater tax penalties are pretty heavy.

Even if we just let Hayward playout the year, that doesn't necessarily save us. Depending on COVID, even if we let Hayward walk next year we might have to end up letting Theis walk as well to avoid the repeater tax.

I'm just not sure how realistic keeping Hayward long term is. So rather than being forced to let him walk for nothing I'd rather try and swing a deal that helps us stay under the tax for one more year. Because that makes it more feasible to actually replace him, even if it's a downgrade like A. Gordon, as opposed to him walking for nothing.


I love Hayward but I wouldn't say no. For personal reasons, Gordon has always been a binky of mine. Went to that draft in Brooklyn back in'14 and though I'm happy we ended up with Smart, Gordon was the guy I wanted. He just screamed Celtic to me at that time.
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#98 » by SmartWentCrazy » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:08 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:
hugepatsfan wrote:
GoCeltics123 wrote:Aaron Gordon for Gordon Hayward is a major downgrade; I know it's hard for some to believe, but let's be real: Aaron Gordon isn't good. He shoots 43% from the field, 30% from three, and is only a decent defender. Yuck.

Unless Hayward is leaving no matter what, I have ZERO interest in that deal. ZERO.


Definitely a downgrade but the deal was made for finances. Keeping Hayward on a long term deal means luxury tax in '20-21, then repeater tax in in '21-22 and '22-23. Two years of repeater tax penalties are pretty heavy.

Even if we just let Hayward playout the year, that doesn't necessarily save us. Depending on COVID, even if we let Hayward walk next year we might have to end up letting Theis walk as well to avoid the repeater tax.

I'm just not sure how realistic keeping Hayward long term is. So rather than being forced to let him walk for nothing I'd rather try and swing a deal that helps us stay under the tax for one more year. Because that makes it more feasible to actually replace him, even if it's a downgrade like A. Gordon, as opposed to him walking for nothing.


I love Hayward but I wouldn't say no. For personal reasons, Gordon has always been a binky of mine. Went to that draft in Brooklyn back in'14 and though I'm happy we ended up with Smart, Gordon was the guy I wanted. He just screamed Celtic to me at that time.


Ive always been a fan of Gordon, and that pre-draft photo of him holding a ball on the red line still has me hooked haha
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#99 » by hugepatsfan » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:27 pm

I had previously thought if you went into the tax one year then you would pay repeater rates the next year. Learned today that was wrong. You have to be in the tax for 3 out of 4 years and then pay repeater rates in that third season.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/2020/

Spotrac has us at $142.5M in taxable salaries before our 3 draft picks. Before COVID the tax line was projected to be at $139M. With COVID impact, it's probably going to be flat or lower compared to this year ($132.6M).

I think Hayward is an ideal fit for us. I love how he works with our starting lineup so I'd prefer to keep him. Here's a plan to do so while staying under the tax:

1) Work out an opt out and extend deal with Hayward. He opts out of $34.2M to sign a 3 year, $90.72M deal. This gives him a 1st year salary of $28M so we save $6.2M. It lines him up to expire with Kemba so we can transition to a new cast around Tatum/Brown at that time. For him, he adds 2 years and $56.52M to his deal which I think is nice security in an uncertain market.

2) Trade Kanter, Carsen Edwards, #30 to Detroit. Salary dump deal. We give up a pick to clear about $10M of salary. Kanter sucks to lose but we just have to cheap out at backup center to avoid the tax. It is what it is. We free up $9.14M in salary with this (and also avoid a guaranteed deal for a 1st round pick).

3) Decline option on Javonte Green. Just freeing up roster space. Another $1.52M gone.

4) Pick up option on Semi. He's just a good value at that price and adds depth.

5) Use #17 and #26 on players ready to fill PG and center minutes. Ideally

6) Sign Waters to an NBA deal.

7) Sign the best vet minimum player you can.

So from the original $142.5M I freed up $16.86M. That gets us down to $125.64M. That will rise a bit with signing #17, #27, Waters ad a vet min player. 2-way deals would be Tacko and the #46 pick. Our roster would be:

Kemba / #17 or #26 pick / Waters
Brown / Smart / Langford
Hayward / Ojeleye
Tatum / G. Williams
Theis / R. Williams / #17 or #26 pick.

That's 14 players. The vet min guy would fill in where he can. Ideally Langford makes a year 2 leap and claims a rotation spot the way we've seen guys in the past do (i.e. Avery Bradley, Terry Rozier).

Depending on COVID, they could be enough to stay below the tax while keeping Hayward. Sets us up to pay tax in '21-22 and '22-23 but at non repeater rates. Then going into '23-24 you have cap flexibility around Tatum/Brown.
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Re: Trade Ideas Thread 

Post#100 » by captain green » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:03 pm

hugepatsfan wrote:I had previously thought if you went into the tax one year then you would pay repeater rates the next year. Learned today that was wrong. You have to be in the tax for 3 out of 4 years and then pay repeater rates in that third season.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/2020/

Spotrac has us at $142.5M in taxable salaries before our 3 draft picks. Before COVID the tax line was projected to be at $139M. With COVID impact, it's probably going to be flat or lower compared to this year ($132.6M).

I think Hayward is an ideal fit for us. I love how he works with our starting lineup so I'd prefer to keep him. Here's a plan to do so while staying under the tax:

1) Work out an opt out and extend deal with Hayward. He opts out of $34.2M to sign a 3 year, $90.72M deal. This gives him a 1st year salary of $28M so we save $6.2M. It lines him up to expire with Kemba so we can transition to a new cast around Tatum/Brown at that time. For him, he adds 2 years and $56.52M to his deal which I think is nice security in an uncertain market.

2) Trade Kanter, Carsen Edwards, #30 to Detroit. Salary dump deal. We give up a pick to clear about $10M of salary. Kanter sucks to lose but we just have to cheap out at backup center to avoid the tax. It is what it is. We free up $9.14M in salary with this (and also avoid a guaranteed deal for a 1st round pick).

3) Decline option on Javonte Green. Just freeing up roster space. Another $1.52M gone.

4) Pick up option on Semi. He's just a good value at that price and adds depth.

5) Use #17 and #26 on players ready to fill PG and center minutes. Ideally

6) Sign Waters to an NBA deal.

7) Sign the best vet minimum player you can.

So from the original $142.5M I freed up $16.86M. That gets us down to $125.64M. That will rise a bit with signing #17, #27, Waters ad a vet min player. 2-way deals would be Tacko and the #46 pick. Our roster would be:

Kemba / #17 or #26 pick / Waters
Brown / Smart / Langford
Hayward / Ojeleye
Tatum / G. Williams
Theis / R. Williams / #17 or #26 pick.

That's 14 players. The vet min guy would fill in where he can. Ideally Langford makes a year 2 leap and claims a rotation spot the way we've seen guys in the past do (i.e. Avery Bradley, Terry Rozier).

Depending on COVID, they could be enough to stay below the tax while keeping Hayward. Sets us up to pay tax in '21-22 and '22-23 but at non repeater rates. Then going into '23-24 you have cap flexibility around Tatum/Brown.

OK I'll bite this isn't bad but you never addressed what we get for Edwarfs, Kanter and 30pick (or maybe I missed it.) I kinda feel green is worth the loot for one more year. And hope we don't pick a PG in draft, the rest is a success for me. And depending what we pick up from Detroit I could live with releasing green.
We always talk about there’s A-to-Z… really, there’s A-to-G or -E,’” Ainge told Celtics.com of a team’s typical offseason agenda. “This year, there’s definitely A-to-Z.” : danny ainge

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