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OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political)

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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#41 » by Slax » Tue Jun 9, 2020 11:22 am

FlatearthZorro wrote:Love you guys, always have, always will, but the US is getting weirder and weirder to me. I do understand that Floyd was literally killed, but wasn't he a convicted felon, I'm not too informed on the subject, and I'm not saying that he deserved it, every LIFE out here matters, regardless of your skin color, education, or social status. What I'm getting at is that from what I read here and there, he's being portrayed as a hero. Also, I wrote it 10 times, I spent 4 months in the US, 9-10 years ago, I'm white, eastern European. When I saw police, the exact words I used were: "Yes, sir.", "No, sir", "thank you, sir". I was completely aware that in the US if you do value your life, you shouldn't mess with the police AT ALL.

Floyd (allegedly) used a counterfeit $20 bill to buy some cigarettes. For that he was hounded by police who threw him to the ground and squeezed the life out of him, while he begged them to let him breathe. In fact witnesses say that Floyd was being calm and cooperative and did say things like "thank you" to the police, and there is no evidence of a violent struggle on video, but the police decided to kill him anyway, and then lie about why they did it later.

I think maybe you should have done more research before weighing in on this subject. The level of violence was so disproportionate and the amount of evidence so overwhelming that even normally pro-police conservatives like Trump who make the same types of arguments you're making now to justify every single other case involving police officers killing a black man pretty much universally agree that Floyd was unjustly murdered, and that it wasn't his fault he died. That's a level of consensus on a usually hot button issue that should make you think twice about even making the argument in the first place.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#42 » by FlatearthZorro » Tue Jun 9, 2020 12:02 pm

Slax wrote:
FlatearthZorro wrote:Love you guys, always have, always will, but the US is getting weirder and weirder to me. I do understand that Floyd was literally killed, but wasn't he a convicted felon, I'm not too informed on the subject, and I'm not saying that he deserved it, every LIFE out here matters, regardless of your skin color, education, or social status. What I'm getting at is that from what I read here and there, he's being portrayed as a hero. Also, I wrote it 10 times, I spent 4 months in the US, 9-10 years ago, I'm white, eastern European. When I saw police, the exact words I used were: "Yes, sir.", "No, sir", "thank you, sir". I was completely aware that in the US if you do value your life, you shouldn't mess with the police AT ALL.

Floyd (allegedly) used a counterfeit $20 bill to buy some cigarettes. For that he was hounded by police who threw him to the ground and squeezed the life out of him, while he begged them to let him breathe. In fact witnesses say that Floyd was being calm and cooperative and did say things like "thank you" to the police, and there is no evidence of a violent struggle on video, but the police decided to kill him anyway, and then lie about why they did it later.

I think maybe you should have done more research before weighing in on this subject. The level of violence was so disproportionate and the amount of evidence so overwhelming that even normally pro-police conservatives like Trump who make the same types of arguments you're making now to justify every single other case involving police officers killing a black man pretty much universally agree that Floyd was unjustly murdered, and that it wasn't his fault he died. That's a level of consensus on a usually hot button issue that should make you think twice about even making the argument in the first place.


The schezophrenic white man who was killed by the police in the same manner in Dallas, was also innocent and didn't deserve his faith, yet I didn't see riots, I didn't see countless stores being vandalized, more than likely innocent people being hurt, etc. So, yea, I don't get it. And I never, ever said the guy deserved to day, you're way OFF point, I wrote the contrary.
Good assessment:

PLO wrote:Tatum played OK - took advantage of a few mismatches - decent on the defensive end. He is what we thought he was going into the season - a technically very proficient player operating close to his career ceiling as a rookie.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#43 » by Bad-Thoma » Tue Jun 9, 2020 12:20 pm

return2glory wrote:Honestly this isn’t about race. It’s so much more.

Ask yourselves you owns the TV networks? Billionaires, that’s who. They choose to run this story as tragic as it is. But why? But why now? Incidents like this aren’t at rare in this country, they just don’t get the coverage like this.

To get the attention of covid that why. The government was losing control of the people with their scare tactics.

People started getting tired of the bs. Cases of people dying from reasons unrelated to covid yet hospitals where putting down covid as the reason for death. There were cases about people dying in car accidents and the reason for death by hospitals was covid.

Infections doctors saying the morality rates are 0.4% and not 4%. Small business being forced to shut down yet big business like Walmart, Costco, Target, supermarkets being open. Why? Why were beaches closed?

What happened to the news coverage for covid since the George Floyd news broke? It went away. All these protests and none stop tv coverage yet no one was talking about social distancing during the protests.

The billionaires that run the country are all sitting back and laughing. No one questions that George Soros, a racist was funded Black lives matters movement a few years back. A white racist funded a black movement, hmmm.

What a way to divide the country by creating racial tension. There is something big coming soon and the latest non stop coverage about race, protesting and looters is all about taking that attention away from wants coming. Just like a master illusionist, the billionaires that run this planet and own tv networks and dictate what stories to go with, are controlling the minds of the masses. People need to rise up and see through this bs.

Last things. Bill Gates is behind a lot of the vaccines. His parents were both heavily involved in population control. Gates is not a dr nor a scientist and he sure as heck doesn’t care about the common people. Yet why is he trying to come up with a vaccine for covid?


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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#44 » by Bad-Thoma » Tue Jun 9, 2020 12:26 pm

FlatearthZorro wrote:Love you guys, always have, always will, but the US is getting weirder and weirder to me. I do understand that Floyd was literally killed, but wasn't he a convicted felon, I'm not too informed on the subject, and I'm not saying that he deserved it, every LIFE out here matters, regardless of your skin color, education, or social status. What I'm getting at is that from what I read here and there, he's being portrayed as a hero. Also, I wrote it 10 times, I spent 4 months in the US, 9-10 years ago, I'm white, eastern European. When I saw police, the exact words I used were: "Yes, sir.", "No, sir", "thank you, sir". I was completely aware that in the US if you do value your life, you shouldn't mess with the police AT ALL.


Just read your own post then go somewhere and sit and think about it. Floyd had been in jail in the past but had supposedly cleaned his life up but honestly it's completely **** irrelevant, the cops shouldn't be murdering innocent people or convicted felons. Read your last 2 sentences, the fact that you have to think like that is the problem and disproportionately so for people of color.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#45 » by FlatearthZorro » Tue Jun 9, 2020 12:37 pm

Bad-Thoma wrote:
FlatearthZorro wrote:Love you guys, always have, always will, but the US is getting weirder and weirder to me. I do understand that Floyd was literally killed, but wasn't he a convicted felon, I'm not too informed on the subject, and I'm not saying that he deserved it, every LIFE out here matters, regardless of your skin color, education, or social status. What I'm getting at is that from what I read here and there, he's being portrayed as a hero. Also, I wrote it 10 times, I spent 4 months in the US, 9-10 years ago, I'm white, eastern European. When I saw police, the exact words I used were: "Yes, sir.", "No, sir", "thank you, sir". I was completely aware that in the US if you do value your life, you shouldn't mess with the police AT ALL.


Just read your own post then go somewhere and sit and think about it. Floyd had been in jail in the past but had supposedly cleaned his life up but honestly it's completely **** irrelevant, the cops shouldn't be murdering innocent people or convicted felons. Read your last 2 sentences, the fact that you have to think like that is the problem and disproportionately so for people of color.


I'll repeat my previous post from above:

The schezophrenic white man who was killed by the police in the same manner in Dallas, was also innocent and didn't deserve his faith, yet I didn't see riots, I didn't see countless stores being vandalized, more than likely innocent people being hurt, etc. So, yea, I don't get it. And I never, ever said the guy deserved to day, you're way OFF point, I wrote the contrary.


I believe that's the way the police operates in the US. It's not skin color, that's where I was getting at.
Good assessment:

PLO wrote:Tatum played OK - took advantage of a few mismatches - decent on the defensive end. He is what we thought he was going into the season - a technically very proficient player operating close to his career ceiling as a rookie.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#46 » by Bad-Thoma » Tue Jun 9, 2020 1:06 pm

FlatearthZorro wrote:
Bad-Thoma wrote:
FlatearthZorro wrote:Love you guys, always have, always will, but the US is getting weirder and weirder to me. I do understand that Floyd was literally killed, but wasn't he a convicted felon, I'm not too informed on the subject, and I'm not saying that he deserved it, every LIFE out here matters, regardless of your skin color, education, or social status. What I'm getting at is that from what I read here and there, he's being portrayed as a hero. Also, I wrote it 10 times, I spent 4 months in the US, 9-10 years ago, I'm white, eastern European. When I saw police, the exact words I used were: "Yes, sir.", "No, sir", "thank you, sir". I was completely aware that in the US if you do value your life, you shouldn't mess with the police AT ALL.


Just read your own post then go somewhere and sit and think about it. Floyd had been in jail in the past but had supposedly cleaned his life up but honestly it's completely **** irrelevant, the cops shouldn't be murdering innocent people or convicted felons. Read your last 2 sentences, the fact that you have to think like that is the problem and disproportionately so for people of color.


I'll repeat my previous post from above:

The schezophrenic white man who was killed by the police in the same manner in Dallas, was also innocent and didn't deserve his faith, yet I didn't see riots, I didn't see countless stores being vandalized, more than likely innocent people being hurt, etc. So, yea, I don't get it. And I never, ever said the guy deserved to day, you're way OFF point, I wrote the contrary.


I believe that's the way the police operates in the US. It's not skin color, that's where I was getting at.


Black people in the U.S. are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police than white people. That's not a standard deviation, that's a huge discrepancy so yeah, color of the skin matters here. Also, white people aren't sitting on a powder keg of anger and frustration stemming from a lifetime of systemic and overt racism which is all the more frustrating when dips**t white people deny that inequality and discrimination even exist. I apologize for the tone of my first response but this seems so basic to me I'm not sure how people don't see it. White people marched on the capitol building in Michigan with assault rifles because they couldn't get haircuts or sit in a restaurant during a pandemic, imagine what'd happen if they face discrimination on a daily basis in the manner people of color do in this country. If you don't believe that discrimination exists read the stories right now that p.o.c. are putting on social media about the things they've dealt with in their lives and tell me you wouldn't be frustrated and angry.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#47 » by Bad-Thoma » Tue Jun 9, 2020 1:08 pm

Bad-Thoma wrote:
FlatearthZorro wrote:
Bad-Thoma wrote:
Just read your own post then go somewhere and sit and think about it. Floyd had been in jail in the past but had supposedly cleaned his life up but honestly it's completely **** irrelevant, the cops shouldn't be murdering innocent people or convicted felons. Read your last 2 sentences, the fact that you have to think like that is the problem and disproportionately so for people of color.


I'll repeat my previous post from above:

The schezophrenic white man who was killed by the police in the same manner in Dallas, was also innocent and didn't deserve his faith, yet I didn't see riots, I didn't see countless stores being vandalized, more than likely innocent people being hurt, etc. So, yea, I don't get it. And I never, ever said the guy deserved to day, you're way OFF point, I wrote the contrary.


I believe that's the way the police operates in the US. It's not skin color, that's where I was getting at.


Black people in the U.S. are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police than white people. That's not a standard deviation, that's a huge discrepancy so yeah, color of the skin matters here. Also, white people aren't sitting on a powder keg of anger and frustration stemming from a lifetime of systemic and overt racism which is all the more frustrating when dips**t white people deny that inequality and discrimination even exist. I apologize for the tone of my first response but this seems so basic to me I'm not sure how people don't see it. White people marched on the capitol building in Michigan with assault rifles because they couldn't get haircuts or sit in a restaurant during a pandemic, imagine what'd happen if they face discrimination on a daily basis in the manner people of color do in this country. If you don't believe that discrimination exists read the stories right now that p.o.c. are putting on social media about the things they've dealt with in their lives and tell me you wouldn't be frustrated and angry.


edit: I realize I'm going off track here a little with this, don't take it personally. But yes, color of the skin makes a huge difference in police treatment of people here.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#48 » by Slax » Tue Jun 9, 2020 1:23 pm

Bad-Thoma wrote:
FlatearthZorro wrote:
Bad-Thoma wrote:
Just read your own post then go somewhere and sit and think about it. Floyd had been in jail in the past but had supposedly cleaned his life up but honestly it's completely **** irrelevant, the cops shouldn't be murdering innocent people or convicted felons. Read your last 2 sentences, the fact that you have to think like that is the problem and disproportionately so for people of color.


I'll repeat my previous post from above:

The schezophrenic white man who was killed by the police in the same manner in Dallas, was also innocent and didn't deserve his faith, yet I didn't see riots, I didn't see countless stores being vandalized, more than likely innocent people being hurt, etc. So, yea, I don't get it. And I never, ever said the guy deserved to day, you're way OFF point, I wrote the contrary.


I believe that's the way the police operates in the US. It's not skin color, that's where I was getting at.


Black people in the U.S. are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police than white people. That's not a standard deviation, that's a huge discrepancy so yeah, color of the skin matters here. Also, white people aren't sitting on a powder keg of anger and frustration stemming from a lifetime of systemic and overt racism which is all the more frustrating when dips**t white people deny that inequality and discrimination even exist. I apologize for the tone of my first response but this seems so basic to me I'm not sure how people don't see it. White people marched on the capitol building in Michigan with assault rifles because they couldn't get haircuts or sit in a restaurant during a pandemic, imagine what'd happen if they face discrimination on a daily basis in the manner people of color do in this country. If you don't believe that discrimination exists read the stories right now that p.o.c. are putting on social media about the things they've dealt with in their lives and tell me you wouldn't be frustrated and angry.

Yeah there are bonafide riots filled with white people who are upset their favorite sports team lost a playoff game. The idea that rioting is a black phenomenon isn't really grounded in reality.

In any case, I don't think "the police did something wrong to a white guy too" means we should just ignore all police misconduct. This is a phenomenon with huge racial disparities, but it's true that police also do mistreat white people (at lower rates than black people, but still quite frequently). Conveniently, most of the reforms proposed and being seriously considered as a result of the outrage in response to the Floyd murder should also help protect white people. A guy died for no reason, and we are using his death as a motivation to improve society. I'm not sure what the problem is.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#49 » by claycarver » Tue Jun 9, 2020 4:37 pm

Bad-Thoma wrote:Black people in the U.S. are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police than white people. That's not a standard deviation, that's a huge discrepancy so yeah, color of the skin matters here.


That’s based on the total number of whites people vs black o people, but that variable doesn't seem relevant to police violence. Police spend a pretty big part of their job dealing with crimes. So I'd want to compare the number of police killings to something like violent crime rate by race or some other metric that captured the community interactions with police.

In other words, if a cop interacts with black men as often as he interacts with white men, I'd expect there to be about the same number of instances of police brutality for each group, regardless of the size of the general population.

And that might still point to more blacks getting killed. I'm just saying that the size of the general population can't really capture bias in police interactions.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#50 » by Bad-Thoma » Tue Jun 9, 2020 5:36 pm

claycarver wrote:
Bad-Thoma wrote:Black people in the U.S. are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police than white people. That's not a standard deviation, that's a huge discrepancy so yeah, color of the skin matters here.


That’s based on the total number of whites people vs black o people, but that variable doesn't seem relevant to police violence. Police spend a pretty big part of their job dealing with crimes. So I'd want to compare the number of police killings to something like violent crime rate by race or some other metric that captured the community interactions with police.

In other words, if a cop interacts with black men as often as he interacts with white men, I'd expect there to be about the same number of instances of police brutality for each group, regardless of the size of the general population.

And that might still point to more blacks getting killed. I'm just saying that the size of the general population can't really capture bias in police interactions.


There's certainly more to it than the simple police killings per capita of a race but 2.5 times as likely isn't an ignorable number. Here's a good article that looks at some methodology in studies that don't always come up with the same answers when it comes to police and race.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officer-shootings-gun-violence-racial-bias-crime-data/595528/

one of the more telling paragraphs for me -

Another way to determine whether racial bias is a factor is by examining police behavior when their target is unarmed and not on the attack. This is what University of Nebraska at Omaha criminology professor Justin Nix examined in his 2017 study on police killings. Nix’s research, which Cesario cites often in his own study, also focuses on police shooting-killings in 2015, when police killed nearly twice as many white people that year (495) than they did black people (258). But 15 percent of the black people police killed that year were unarmed, compared with just 6 percent of white people who were unarmed when killed by police. The study also found that 24 percent of African Americans and 32 percent of other non-white racial groups were not attacking police officers when they were killed, compared to 17 percent of white people. This was interpreted as “preliminary evidence of an implicit bias effect,” against African Americans and people of color.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#51 » by FlatearthZorro » Tue Jun 9, 2020 5:53 pm

claycarver wrote:
Bad-Thoma wrote:Black people in the U.S. are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police than white people. That's not a standard deviation, that's a huge discrepancy so yeah, color of the skin matters here.


That’s based on the total number of whites people vs black o people, but that variable doesn't seem relevant to police violence. Police spend a pretty big part of their job dealing with crimes. So I'd want to compare the number of police killings to something like violent crime rate by race or some other metric that captured the community interactions with police.

In other words, if a cop interacts with black men as often as he interacts with white men, I'd expect there to be about the same number of instances of police brutality for each group, regardless of the size of the general population.

And that might still point to more blacks getting killed. I'm just saying that the size of the general population can't really capture bias in police interactions.


Completely agree, last year I saw that black people are responsible for more than half of the crimes in the US. Not blaming anyone, had black buds in the US, went to a barbecue and I've never judged a person by their skin color, social status or education, but you're a lot more likely to get yourself in trouble with the police when you're breaking the law. Police in the US ain't **** around at ALL. As I wrote, I was somewhat fearful of police in the US. Treated them with a ton of respect cause I value my life.
Good assessment:

PLO wrote:Tatum played OK - took advantage of a few mismatches - decent on the defensive end. He is what we thought he was going into the season - a technically very proficient player operating close to his career ceiling as a rookie.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#52 » by Parliament10 » Tue Jun 9, 2020 6:52 pm

FlatearthZorro wrote:
claycarver wrote:
Bad-Thoma wrote:Black people in the U.S. are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police than white people. That's not a standard deviation, that's a huge discrepancy so yeah, color of the skin matters here.


That’s based on the total number of whites people vs black o people, but that variable doesn't seem relevant to police violence. Police spend a pretty big part of their job dealing with crimes. So I'd want to compare the number of police killings to something like violent crime rate by race or some other metric that captured the community interactions with police.

In other words, if a cop interacts with black men as often as he interacts with white men, I'd expect there to be about the same number of instances of police brutality for each group, regardless of the size of the general population.

And that might still point to more blacks getting killed. I'm just saying that the size of the general population can't really capture bias in police interactions.


Completely agree, last year I saw that black people are responsible for more than half of the crimes in the US. Not blaming anyone, had black buds in the US, went to a barbecue and I've never judged a person by their skin color, social status or education, but you're a lot more likely to get yourself in trouble with the police when you're breaking the law. Police in the US ain't **** around at ALL. As I wrote, I was somewhat fearful of police in the US. Treated them with a ton of respect cause I value my life.

Do you have any facts to back up your positions? -- Like links and so forth.
Another thing, is that systematic racism is not confined to the U.S. That's been a given, since before the U.S. existed.

Also, not sure where you're going with this respect-the-police-at-all-costs thing.
But Police, are people too. -- They can commit crimes just like civilians. Likely, not as much.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#53 » by FlatearthZorro » Tue Jun 9, 2020 7:03 pm

Parliament10 wrote:
FlatearthZorro wrote:
claycarver wrote:
That’s based on the total number of whites people vs black o people, but that variable doesn't seem relevant to police violence. Police spend a pretty big part of their job dealing with crimes. So I'd want to compare the number of police killings to something like violent crime rate by race or some other metric that captured the community interactions with police.

In other words, if a cop interacts with black men as often as he interacts with white men, I'd expect there to be about the same number of instances of police brutality for each group, regardless of the size of the general population.

And that might still point to more blacks getting killed. I'm just saying that the size of the general population can't really capture bias in police interactions.


Completely agree, last year I saw that black people are responsible for more than half of the crimes in the US. Not blaming anyone, had black buds in the US, went to a barbecue and I've never judged a person by their skin color, social status or education, but you're a lot more likely to get yourself in trouble with the police when you're breaking the law. Police in the US ain't **** around at ALL. As I wrote, I was somewhat fearful of police in the US. Treated them with a ton of respect cause I value my life.

Do you have any facts to back up your positions? -- Like links and so forth.
Another thing, is that systematic racism is not confined to the U.S. That's been a given, since before the U.S. existed.

Also, not sure where you're going with this respect-the-police-at-all-costs thing.
But Police, are people too. -- They can commit crimes just like civilians. Likely, not as much.


Well, my point, brotha, is that the police in the US is kinda dangerous compared to where I live and I wouldn't mess in way shape or form in the US. Regardless of my skin color.
Good assessment:

PLO wrote:Tatum played OK - took advantage of a few mismatches - decent on the defensive end. He is what we thought he was going into the season - a technically very proficient player operating close to his career ceiling as a rookie.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#54 » by Parliament10 » Tue Jun 9, 2020 7:07 pm

FlatearthZorro wrote:
Parliament10 wrote:
FlatearthZorro wrote:
Completely agree, last year I saw that black people are responsible for more than half of the crimes in the US. Not blaming anyone, had black buds in the US, went to a barbecue and I've never judged a person by their skin color, social status or education, but you're a lot more likely to get yourself in trouble with the police when you're breaking the law. Police in the US ain't **** around at ALL. As I wrote, I was somewhat fearful of police in the US. Treated them with a ton of respect cause I value my life.

Do you have any facts to back up your positions? -- Like links and so forth.
Another thing, is that systematic racism is not confined to the U.S. That's been a given, since before the U.S. existed.

Also, not sure where you're going with this respect-the-police-at-all-costs thing.
But Police, are people too. -- They can commit crimes just like civilians. Likely, not as much.


Well, my point, brotha, is that the police in the US is kinda dangerous compared to where I live and I wouldn't mess in way shape or form in the US. Regardless of my skin color.

Fair enough. But your assertion, is as someone who doesn't live in the U.S. all the time, right?
And, call me "Parl", not "brotha".

Where do you live? That the police aren't so dangerous?
You still haven't listed any links, or actual facts.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#55 » by Parliament10 » Tue Jun 9, 2020 7:23 pm

https://nleomf.org/facts-figures/law-enforcement-facts
There are more than 800,000 sworn law enforcement officers now serving in the United States, which is the highest figure ever. About 12 percent of those are female.


The U.S. general population is 329M, as of June 8, 2020.
https://www.census.gov/popclock/

So, the police are really outnumbered.

I personally think that there should be a 1:100 ratio of police in more difficult areas, and at least 1:200 ratio overall.
I also believe that police officers should be paid at least double, to as much as 4 times, what they receive now.

I believe that police officers are our front line. They are basically in constant hazardous civilian situations.
I think that they need to be held to higher standards, and should be paid for it, too.

That said, we also need a more specified "Police-Policing" Agency. Police shouldn't be charged with policing themselves.
And just as there should be a 1:200 ratio of police to citizens. There should be a similar ratio of "Police-Police" to general Police.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#56 » by claycarver » Tue Jun 9, 2020 7:47 pm

Parliament10 wrote:That said, we also need a more specified "Police-Policing" Agency. Police shouldn't be charged with policing themselves.
And just as there should be a 1:200 ratio of police to citizens. There should be a similar ratio of "Police-Police" to general Police.


Amen. People constantly get frustrated that our government can't get anything done, but it was set up with an absurd number of checks and balances because we don't just trust people with power. Anywhere in the system where power has insufficient checks, we either need to reduce power or increase accountability.

I get the desire to decrease police power given the abuses we've seen, but I think an increase of police accountability is the smarter move.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#57 » by Parliament10 » Tue Jun 9, 2020 7:56 pm

claycarver wrote:
Parliament10 wrote:That said, we also need a more specified "Police-Policing" Agency. Police shouldn't be charged with policing themselves.
And just as there should be a 1:200 ratio of police to citizens. There should be a similar ratio of "Police-Police" to general Police.


Amen. People constantly get frustrated that our government can't get anything done, but it was set up with an absurd number of checks and balances because we don't just trust people with power. Anywhere in the system where power has insufficient checks, we either need to reduce power or increase accountability.

I get the desire to decrease the abuse of police power, but I think an increase of police accountability is the smarter choice.

I understand what you're saying, about the abuses of police power, toward citizens.
But, I'm talking more about crime, in general. People, and Police, commit other crimes besides racism.

Pay them better, and that would reduce their own crime rates.
Accountability is good, too. But that's a given, for society in general.
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#58 » by FlatearthZorro » Tue Jun 9, 2020 7:59 pm

Parliament10 wrote:
FlatearthZorro wrote:
Parliament10 wrote:Do you have any facts to back up your positions? -- Like links and so forth.
Another thing, is that systematic racism is not confined to the U.S. That's been a given, since before the U.S. existed.

Also, not sure where you're going with this respect-the-police-at-all-costs thing.
But Police, are people too. -- They can commit crimes just like civilians. Likely, not as much.


Well, my point, brotha, is that the police in the US is kinda dangerous compared to where I live and I wouldn't mess in way shape or form in the US. Regardless of my skin color.

Fair enough. But your assertion, is as someone who doesn't live in the U.S. all the time, right?
And, call me "Parl", not "brotha".

Where do you live? That the police aren't so dangerous?
You still haven't listed any links, or actual facts.


I saw that last year, way too dang lazy to dig it up again, but I've said at least 10 times I live in Bulgaria, where if you're a tiny bit lucky you can fight the police. They don't use guns, ever...

On the other hand, sorry, Parl it is...
Good assessment:

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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#59 » by claycarver » Tue Jun 9, 2020 7:59 pm

Bad-Thoma wrote:
claycarver wrote:
Bad-Thoma wrote:Black people in the U.S. are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police than white people. That's not a standard deviation, that's a huge discrepancy so yeah, color of the skin matters here.


That’s based on the total number of whites people vs black o people, but that variable doesn't seem relevant to police violence. Police spend a pretty big part of their job dealing with crimes. So I'd want to compare the number of police killings to something like violent crime rate by race or some other metric that captured the community interactions with police.

In other words, if a cop interacts with black men as often as he interacts with white men, I'd expect there to be about the same number of instances of police brutality for each group, regardless of the size of the general population.

And that might still point to more blacks getting killed. I'm just saying that the size of the general population can't really capture bias in police interactions.


There's certainly more to it than the simple police killings per capita of a race but 2.5 times as likely isn't an ignorable number. Here's a good article that looks at some methodology in studies that don't always come up with the same answers when it comes to police and race.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officer-shootings-gun-violence-racial-bias-crime-data/595528/

one of the more telling paragraphs for me -

Another way to determine whether racial bias is a factor is by examining police behavior when their target is unarmed and not on the attack. This is what University of Nebraska at Omaha criminology professor Justin Nix examined in his 2017 study on police killings. Nix’s research, which Cesario cites often in his own study, also focuses on police shooting-killings in 2015, when police killed nearly twice as many white people that year (495) than they did black people (258). But 15 percent of the black people police killed that year were unarmed, compared with just 6 percent of white people who were unarmed when killed by police. The study also found that 24 percent of African Americans and 32 percent of other non-white racial groups were not attacking police officers when they were killed, compared to 17 percent of white people. This was interpreted as “preliminary evidence of an implicit bias effect,” against African Americans and people of color.


That's a great article, thanks for linking it. I actually think the paragraph immediately following the one you quote was most important:

Nix, however, is cautious about deriving any firm conclusions from his own findings or Cesario’s because the data on police shootings in general is too limited. The FBI finally launched its database on police-involved shootings just this year, which is why researchers rely on databases created by journalists. And even the subset of data that academics have been working with—police shooting fatalities—have their own range of limitations.


And that was my point. In order to understand whether or not there is racially motivated bias in police abuse cases, we need to have a baseline. Personally, I find Cesario's methodology to be more convincing (and very helpful given the false narrative that WHITE cops are the problem) given the data we currently have but I can see where you'd prefer Nix. But as Nix pointed out, neither of us shouldn't be confident in our position.

The raw numbers (where whites incur more police brutality) is clearly flawed. But police violence as percentage of population (where blacks incur more brutality) is equally flawed. These are the two points people generally make and they're both useless. Cesario and Nix's more nuanced observations are helpful, but don't get us where we want to be yet. For example I totally agree with Nix that data on how often the gun is drawn would be awesome:

Nix would want numbers not only on how many times a police officer shoots their weapon, but every time they draw their gun. “You need a benchmark that says how often they were in certain circumstances where they could have shot but did not. That gets us closer to the likelihood of racial bias.”
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Re: OT: NBA & Celtics Speak Out Against Racism; George Floyd Thread (Non-Political) 

Post#60 » by Bad-Thoma » Tue Jun 9, 2020 9:36 pm

FlatearthZorro wrote:
Completely agree, last year I saw that black people are responsible for more than half of the crimes in the US.


This is another example of a potentially misleading statistic due to racial profiling. I'm too tired to go into it to much but anecdotally I'm a plain old white guy and I've driven around where I live for over 2 years without getting an inspection sticker on a rusty white van before and not been stopped once. A good friend of mine is a tall black dude with dreads from Newark, NJ who generally was driving something nicer than me as he works his ass off, fully legal vehicles and he gets stopped constantly for random bull and it drives him bat **** crazy (probably didn't help that I laughed so much but we're those kind of friends). I have a facebook friend in Maine who is Vietnamese (I went to high school with him) who deals with the same thing, he's a family man who works hard and really doesn't do anything wrong and it was actually prevalent enough that one towns sheriff got to know him and enlisted him to kind of check how new recruits dealt with him when they inevitably pulled him over. If the cops are targeting a higher percentage of people of color, and it's been well documented that this happens, to pull over for bull **** they are naturally going to end up registering more statistics with cases involving people of color. Racism is insidious, that doesn't mean that individually we are all racist because we are white, etc, I personally hate racists with a passion as I feel they are doing their best to make the world a worse place. However I grew up in a household that had some prejudices and I used to think some stupid **** but if you asked me then I would have honestly claimed I wasn't prejudiced as I had no idea. I look back and cringe at some of the stereotypes I accepted because I was young and hadn't been exposed to many people of color. Once again I'm on a tangent, tired as hell so I'm out.

Stay open minded peeps and I'll try as well, we might not all agree but if people talk about this stuff in a reasonable open minded manner we all end up better.

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