ImageImageImage

Hayward is the key to winning Heat/etc, but he must come off the bench

Moderators: sully00, djFan71, ParticleMan, Froob, canman1971, The Comedian, Parliament10

Play Hayward off the bench when he returns

Yes
35
57%
No
26
43%
 
Total votes: 61

djFan71
Forum Mod - Celtics
Forum Mod - Celtics
Posts: 8,237
And1: 8,867
Joined: Jul 24, 2010
 

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Bucks/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#41 » by djFan71 » Fri Sep 4, 2020 8:28 pm

ConstableGeneva wrote:
djFan71 wrote:
3D Chess wrote:They said during game 3 that he's coming back to the bubble this weekend.

Yeah, I caught that too. But couldn't find anything official on it.

They say all kinds of silly things on the national broadcast.

They did also say there's no way Hayward is playing in the Raptors series.

Anyway, it would be weird if he enters the bubble soon only to leave again for his son's birth. Unless Robyn's already given birth. Information of which I am not privy to.

That's what I thought. Why come back and just leave again? Other than to show some support, keep involved in the game plans, etc. Seems like a lot of extra quarantining.
Soulcatcher33
Veteran
Posts: 2,525
And1: 2,708
Joined: Dec 14, 2016
 

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Bucks/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#42 » by Soulcatcher33 » Fri Sep 4, 2020 8:56 pm

Hayward isn't coming back so it doesn't matter. You don't come back from a grade 3 ankle sprain in four weeks.
nic4747
Senior
Posts: 710
And1: 302
Joined: May 16, 2011

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Bucks/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#43 » by nic4747 » Sat Sep 5, 2020 1:05 am

Heat up 3-0. Didn’t see this coming.
User avatar
zoyathedestroya
General Manager
Posts: 9,741
And1: 23,626
Joined: Nov 05, 2017

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Bucks/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#44 » by zoyathedestroya » Sun Sep 6, 2020 7:44 am

Hayward might want to wait until Wednesday before re-entering the bubble. :P
User avatar
Celts17Pride
RealGM
Posts: 44,232
And1: 29,957
Joined: Nov 27, 2005

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Bucks/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#45 » by Celts17Pride » Sun Sep 6, 2020 1:38 pm

Celts17Pride wrote:Will be interesting to see this thread 2 games from now after Marcus Smart shoots 2 for 15 from three point range in Games 3 & 4.

Not hating on Smart. People just overreact to the most recent games.

My fault, Smart was 3 for 15 in Games 3 & 4. I underestimated by 1.

Smart is a super sub. Hayward should be starting as soon as he is healthy.
User avatar
AgentGreen
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,856
And1: 2,107
Joined: Feb 12, 2013
Location: Greentown
     

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Bucks/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#46 » by AgentGreen » Sun Sep 6, 2020 5:00 pm

Hayward is our main weapon when the opponents tries to slow down our offense. His ball handling and court vision are tough to defend and if they give him space he drains his high percent midranger or attacks the rim. We would've swept the Raptors with him. Tough luck.
Image
User avatar
Celticsfan81
Senior
Posts: 535
And1: 325
Joined: Mar 01, 2005
     

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Bucks/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#47 » by Celticsfan81 » Mon Sep 7, 2020 3:11 am

He's the best play maker we have , If we are being honest I'd rather have the Ball in his hands more and Kemba's less....
But I doubt we See Hayward again this year.
Postby YouthMovement on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:09 pm

im 19 and i can say paul pierce ruined my childhood
87rottweiler
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,723
And1: 2,398
Joined: Jul 13, 2014
Location: Melbourne
 

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Bucks/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#48 » by 87rottweiler » Mon Sep 7, 2020 2:13 pm

Put simply, if he isn’t the one to bring the ball up the court, he’s the first pass out of the Tatum & Kemba double teams.

Having Hayward’s skills and IQ in that position turn a potentially broken play into an open shot, a hockey assist into an open shot or fake and drive, or a lane or open shot for himself.

Making the D scramble turns contested drives into into and-1s and free throws.

He’s far from perfect our Gordon but when he’s healthy and firing, he’s the engine of this team and elevates both our floor and ceiling considerably.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
User avatar
ConstableGeneva
RealGM
Posts: 30,729
And1: 59,153
Joined: Sep 22, 2012
Location: Parody Account
 

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Bucks/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#49 » by ConstableGeneva » Mon Sep 7, 2020 6:20 pm

ConstableGeneva wrote:Kemba/Brown/Tatum/Theis with Gordo: 116.6 ORtg (92nd percentile), 104.7 DRtg (93rd percentile), +11.9 NRtg (97th percentile)
Kemba/Brown/Tatum/Theis with Smart: 105.0 ORtg (13th percentile), 100.0 DRtg (99th percentile), +5.0 NRtg (80th percentile)

That's too much of a dropoff in offense to justify the improvement in defense.

And to hugepatsfan's point, we don't use hockey 5-for-5 substitutions. Brad usually pulls out Hayward or Tatum early to bring them back before the 1Q/3Q ends so they can lead the "second unit." So not only do you maximize your starting group this way by getting them more minutes together, you also have someone to make your bench group's offense functional/more potent.

It's the same counter-argument to fans who have suggested that Kemba should come off the bench in favor of Smart.

EDIT: Smaller sample but the current starting lineup w/ Smart is scoring about the same (105.1 pts per 100 possessions) in the playoffs.

Read on Twitter

Our starting lineup with Smart is scoring only 88 pts/100 possessions against the Raptors. That is not good.
User avatar
celticfan42487
RealGM
Posts: 20,879
And1: 7,011
Joined: Jul 22, 2005
Location: Billerica, MA
       

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Bucks/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#50 » by celticfan42487 » Tue Sep 8, 2020 1:42 am

ConstableGeneva wrote:
ConstableGeneva wrote:Kemba/Brown/Tatum/Theis with Gordo: 116.6 ORtg (92nd percentile), 104.7 DRtg (93rd percentile), +11.9 NRtg (97th percentile)
Kemba/Brown/Tatum/Theis with Smart: 105.0 ORtg (13th percentile), 100.0 DRtg (99th percentile), +5.0 NRtg (80th percentile)

That's too much of a dropoff in offense to justify the improvement in defense.

And to hugepatsfan's point, we don't use hockey 5-for-5 substitutions. Brad usually pulls out Hayward or Tatum early to bring them back before the 1Q/3Q ends so they can lead the "second unit." So not only do you maximize your starting group this way by getting them more minutes together, you also have someone to make your bench group's offense functional/more potent.

It's the same counter-argument to fans who have suggested that Kemba should come off the bench in favor of Smart.

EDIT: Smaller sample but the current starting lineup w/ Smart is scoring about the same (105.1 pts per 100 possessions) in the playoffs.

Read on Twitter

Our starting lineup with Smart is scoring only 88 pts/100 possessions against the Raptors. That is not good.



Nor is it surprising. It would take a superstar Tatum to carry a Theis and Smart lineup to offensive success. That's just two players that in Theis case doesn't have enough and in Smart's case seems to try his best to turnover the basketball or make the wrong play on offense as often as he makes the right play.

Hayward being a steady hand, steady passer, and steady 3 point shooter would do wonders for us right now.
Image
User avatar
Parliament10
Forum Mod - Celtics
Forum Mod - Celtics
Posts: 28,576
And1: 29,272
Joined: Jul 24, 2009
       

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Bucks/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#51 » by Parliament10 » Tue Sep 8, 2020 6:11 am

After seeing us fall 2 games to the Raptors, when we should have gone Undefeated.
I'm all for Hayward Starting, once he gets back on the team.

He's gotta be better than Smart.
And moving Smart to the Bench, strengthens our whole team.
"It's not about me, it's about the Team."
~ Marcus Smart
User avatar
ParticleMan
Forum Mod - Celtics
Forum Mod - Celtics
Posts: 13,949
And1: 5,989
Joined: Sep 16, 2004
     

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Bucks/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#52 » by ParticleMan » Tue Sep 8, 2020 11:14 am

smart is fine with the starters. i like the defensive tone he sets. he's going to play starter minutes anyways, so put him out there when you've got your big 3 scorers. then hayward can sub in for brown or tatum and we'll have much less of an offensive dropoff than semi or grant.
User avatar
ConstableGeneva
RealGM
Posts: 30,729
And1: 59,153
Joined: Sep 22, 2012
Location: Parody Account
 

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Heat/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#53 » by ConstableGeneva » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:39 pm

Read on Twitter

How do you even decide at what point is he gonna be an asset rather than a liability on the floor? 70% healthy? 80%? 86.3% healthy? If they try to ease him in, they could bring him off the bench.
User avatar
BigTrade92
General Manager
Posts: 7,945
And1: 8,621
Joined: Mar 24, 2011
       

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Heat/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#54 » by BigTrade92 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:19 pm

You have to have him come off the bench.

We’re barely getting any offensive production off the bench save for a rare Semi 3 or a Timelord putback.

Hayward anchoring the second unit makes the most sense. Allows him to come back slowly and keeps Smart with the starters, where his presence has been incredible.
yazfan
Senior
Posts: 537
And1: 556
Joined: Oct 12, 2017
       

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Heat/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#55 » by yazfan » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:18 pm

So is Hayward still leaving for baby G ?

His wife posted something along the lines "Next time I see you you will have your boy?"

That reads past tense.......

That would certainly be an interesting twist.
User avatar
BigTrade92
General Manager
Posts: 7,945
And1: 8,621
Joined: Mar 24, 2011
       

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Heat/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#56 » by BigTrade92 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:32 pm

yazfan wrote:So is Hayward still leaving for baby G ?

His wife posted something along the lines "Next time I see you you will have your boy?"

That reads past tense.......

That would certainly be an interesting twist.

Where was this posted?
User avatar
BillTheGOAT
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,853
And1: 1,731
Joined: Oct 23, 2008
 

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Heat/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#57 » by BillTheGOAT » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:41 pm

In case you missed this in the GT..

Read on Twitter
Slax
Analyst
Posts: 3,359
And1: 4,304
Joined: Jul 08, 2010
Location: New York
       

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Heat/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#58 » by Slax » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:44 pm

ConstableGeneva wrote:
Read on Twitter

How do you even decide at what point is he gonna be an asset rather than a liability on the floor? 70% healthy? 80%? 86.3% healthy? If they try to ease him in, they could bring him off the bench.

Assuming there isn't a risk of re-injury, how healthy does he need to be for playing him to be a better option than playing Semi, Grant, and Wanamaker a combined 38 minutes a game? Because that was what we were resorting to in the Raptors series. I don't think he has to be that healthy to be a much better option than Semi in limited minutes.
SuperDeluxe
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 19,788
And1: 12,423
Joined: Feb 23, 2003
Location: Celtic Nation
   

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Heat/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#59 » by SuperDeluxe » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:57 pm

Before the playoffs I would've probably laughed at this notion of not starting Hayward. Hayward was so critical for the team in terms of the way the ball moved, so much that you could feel the offense slowing down when he was off the court.

But something changed in the way the team has been playing in these playoffs—everybody's moving the ball, which is circulating freely, the passing comes so naturally and is so crisp. I think Tatum and Brown sharing the ball, especially Jayson's passing, have made Hayward a great option coming off the bench. (Not long ago, a Tatum assist was almost a rarity. The kid is maturing right in front of us.)

Also, Hayward will be rusty after a full month of not playing... Not a good idea to start him, let alone right away.
User avatar
ConstableGeneva
RealGM
Posts: 30,729
And1: 59,153
Joined: Sep 22, 2012
Location: Parody Account
 

Re: Hayward is the key to winning Heat/etc, but he must come off the bench 

Post#60 » by ConstableGeneva » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:57 pm

Slax wrote:
ConstableGeneva wrote:
Read on Twitter

How do you even decide at what point is he gonna be an asset rather than a liability on the floor? 70% healthy? 80%? 86.3% healthy? If they try to ease him in, they could bring him off the bench.

Assuming there isn't a risk of re-injury, how healthy does he need to be for playing him to be a better option than playing Semi, Grant, and Wanamaker a combined 38 minutes a game? Because that was what we were resorting to in the Raptors series. I don't think he has to be that healthy to be a much better option than Semi in limited minutes.

Skill-wise and BBIQ, I take a hobbled Hayward over anyone on the bench. I guess I'm worried about his mobility on defense more than anything.

Return to Boston Celtics