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If not Brad, who?

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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#101 » by fallguy » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:35 pm

It's a fun thought experiment to imagine D'Antoni coaching this team.
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#102 » by MagicBagley18 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:16 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Ed Pinkney wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
2) He’s overrated and I dont believe he’s a championship level coach




I find this line of thinking (from mulitple posters here) a little baffling to be honest. What exactly is a championship level coach until they actually win a championship? How do you even define that?

Is Popovic a championship coach if he isn't gifted Duncan? How long does he coach if the Spurs never won a championship or Duncan bolted for Orlando? What exactly has Spoelstra done when he hasn't had peak James, Wade and Bosh? Oh, and if Popovic didn't cost the Spurs the Ray Allen game, the Heat might have lost three out of four Finals he coached.


Yes, Pop is the best coach of all time. Look at the championship team he had in 2014— Duncan was 37. That team wasnt the most talented team in the league, but they got the most possible out of that team coming off a devastating loss the previous year.

Spo just pantsed the two-time MVP last round. He repeatedly has gotten an untalented roster to vastly outperform expectations and has never had a season as disappointing as Stevens had last year.

A championship level coach is someone who is able to look an alpha-level player in the eyes and command respect. Pop does that. Spo does that. Stevens does not.

If the Raptors don't trade for Leonard and Durant and Thompson don't get injured I am pretty sure everyone looks at Nick Nurse in a different way.

Has Stevens ever been the main reason the Celtics have lost a playoff series? I would argue no he hasn't. Have the Celtics overachieved almost every season he has been there? I would say in most cases yes. Do players get better playing for him? I would say yes. Do players who leave the Celtics all of sudden become better? I would say definitely not.


Nurse coached his ass off vs GS and the defensive adjustments he threw at them befuddled the crap out of them. FOH with that criticism.

The last two years Stevens has had a supremely talented team. We vastly underperformed last season. I wouldnt say we overperformed this year, either— I think fans have a tendency to want to undersell our talent level to overstate Stevens’ impact. The stuff your doing is great, but dudes like Kenny Atkinson or Nate McMillan can say the exact same thing. Are they championship level coaches? Or are they just unemployed?

Is he perfect or not need to get better? Of course not. Could someone potentially do better with the exact same roster/injury list/opponents etc? Possibly, but there is not one single coach you could categorically say that they would be able to do so.


Sure, but this isnt an arrow in the quiver of Steens being a championship level coach.

Front office stability, good ownership and a good coach are all surprisingly hard to have at the same time in the NBA and I think the Celtics have that. In the end, talent wins championships and at the moment the Celtics might not have enough of it who are ready to get the team to that point. That's what it boils down to.


Again, people need to stop underselling our talent. We have a 22 year old fringe top 10 guy. Kemba started the ASG. Jaylen was a fringe all-star. This isnt the 2016 try hard team— were really, really good.


I just can’t agree with the fact we didn’t overachieve this year.....we lost kyrie horford and are in the ECF with a real shot to make the finals. We had a top defense and offense. We have a 22 yr old being handed the keys and to Tatums credit he made the leap. Browns made a solid jump as hard as I am on him.

I also can’t agree yet that stevens can’t coach superstars. You’re evidence is he couldn’t handle kyrie- how many coaches can? he seems to have a good relationship with Tatum and Tatum is a top 10 player by most accounts here. Is it a guarantee he can handle the modern day star? No but I don’t think it’s fair to say he can’t and shouldn’t a coach get some of the credit for his young players developing?
Not all but def some and Tatum and brown have most definitely developed.

you can say nurse coached circles around and nurse was great but stevens also exhibited top level coaching in that series. By all account any observer who knows will tell you that their was elite coaching by both sides and at the end of the day stevens team won the series and won the season series 3-1.

I think when anyone watches a team as passionately as we do for 7 years we see all the warts of our coach - magnified. Stevens makes me mad at times and has me questioning his decisions a lot but he’s a top level elite coach IMO. He may not deliver the messages the way I like or we want but it certainly gets across.
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#103 » by Curmudgeon » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:32 pm

I want no part of D'Antoni. His teams don't win because they don't defend. Or rebound. Read my sig.

If Brad decides to stop coaching, my top choices as a replacement would be Jay Larranaga or Jerome Allen. My choice among those with previous head coaching experience would be Nate McMillan.
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#104 » by SmartWentCrazy » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:04 am

MagicBagley18 wrote:
I just can’t agree with the fact we didn’t overachieve this year.....we lost kyrie horford and are in the ECF with a real shot to make the finals. We had a top defense and offense. We have a 22 yr old being handed the keys and to Tatums credit he made the leap. Browns made a solid jump as hard as I am on him.


Tatum is a top 10 player. Kemba started an ASG and is a top ~25 guy. Brown is top 40. Hayward is top 40. Smart is top 75.

Thats a **** ton of talent, man. Overachieving is when you coach a team led by IT, Bradley and Jae Crowder and make the ECFs. Or when Horford and a bunch of eary career guys get to a game 7 vs LeBron. Massive difference from a bunch of top tier players taking you there.

Did Brad help? Sure, Brown and Tatum undoubtedly developed under partial guidance from Brad. But they also were notably developed by playing for Pop/Kerr on the national team [I’ve got the receipts on commenting how impressive Brown’s handle became]. They also worked their ass off on their own. Personally, I generally prefer to credit the player for development more than the coach. These guys will either work their ass off in the summer or they wont. Our guys did.

I also can’t agree yet that stevens can’t coach superstars. You’re evidence is he couldn’t handle kyrie- how many coaches can? he seems to have a good relationship with Tatum and Tatum is a top 10 player by most accounts here. Is it a guarantee he can handle the modern day star? No but I don’t think it’s fair to say he can’t and shouldn’t a coach get some of the credit for his young players developing?
Not all but def some and Tatum and brown have most definitely developed.


Agree to disagree. His previous lack of a pecking order and commitment to equal opportunity sharing hurt him previously. He’s shown growth this year, admittedly.

you can say nurse coached circles around and nurse was great but stevens also exhibited top level coaching in that series. By all account any observer who knows will tell you that their was elite coaching by both sides and at the end of the day stevens team won the series and won the season series 3-1.


I guess my read, after watching that series, was that we were a significantly better team. That shouldnt have been a 7 game series, nor that close at the end. But maybe your right and thats more of a credit to Nurse than a demerit to Brad.

I think when anyone watches a team as passionately as we do for 7 years we see all the warts of our coach - magnified. Stevens makes me mad at times and has me questioning his decisions a lot but he’s a top level elite coach IMO. He may not deliver the messages the way I like or we want but it certainly gets across.


I guess my take is this. Many speak as if he’s a top 3, elite coach. He’s not. He’s somewhere in the 5-12 range. That makes him overrated to me.

On the whole, I also just kinda cringe at the weirdness of it all. I remember multiple users on this board trashing Doc right before we traded him to LA. Some of them now heap praise on Brad.

To me, theyre functionally the same thing, with Doc probably slightly better due to his ability to deal with superstar ego’s. But its just uncomfortable to me with how they both were regarded by fans overall.
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#105 » by Homerclease » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:33 am

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
I just can’t agree with the fact we didn’t overachieve this year.....we lost kyrie horford and are in the ECF with a real shot to make the finals. We had a top defense and offense. We have a 22 yr old being handed the keys and to Tatums credit he made the leap. Browns made a solid jump as hard as I am on him.


Tatum is a top 10 player. Kemba started an ASG and is a top ~25 guy. Brown is top 40. Hayward is top 40. Smart is top 75.

Thats a **** ton of talent, man. Overachieving is when you coach a team led by IT, Bradley and Jae Crowder and make the ECFs. Or when Horford and a bunch of eary career guys get to a game 7 vs LeBron. Massive difference from a bunch of top tier players taking you there.

Did Brad help? Sure, Brown and Tatum undoubtedly developed under partial guidance from Brad. But they also were notably developed by playing for Pop/Kerr on the national team [I’ve got the receipts on commenting how impressive Brown’s handle became]. They also worked their ass off on their own. Personally, I generally prefer to credit the player for development more than the coach. These guys will either work their ass off in the summer or they wont. Our guys did.

I also can’t agree yet that stevens can’t coach superstars. You’re evidence is he couldn’t handle kyrie- how many coaches can? he seems to have a good relationship with Tatum and Tatum is a top 10 player by most accounts here. Is it a guarantee he can handle the modern day star? No but I don’t think it’s fair to say he can’t and shouldn’t a coach get some of the credit for his young players developing?
Not all but def some and Tatum and brown have most definitely developed.


Agree to disagree. His previous lack of a pecking order and commitment to equal opportunity sharing hurt him previously. He’s shown growth this year, admittedly.

you can say nurse coached circles around and nurse was great but stevens also exhibited top level coaching in that series. By all account any observer who knows will tell you that their was elite coaching by both sides and at the end of the day stevens team won the series and won the season series 3-1.


I guess my read, after watching that series, was that we were a significantly better team. That shouldnt have been a 7 game series, nor that close at the end. But maybe your right and thats more of a credit to Nurse than a demerit to Brad.

I think when anyone watches a team as passionately as we do for 7 years we see all the warts of our coach - magnified. Stevens makes me mad at times and has me questioning his decisions a lot but he’s a top level elite coach IMO. He may not deliver the messages the way I like or we want but it certainly gets across.


I guess my take is this. Many speak as if he’s a top 3, elite coach. He’s not. He’s somewhere in the 5-12 range. That makes him overrated to me.

On the whole, I also just kinda cringe at the weirdness of it all. I remember multiple users on this board trashing Doc right before we traded him to LA. Some of them now heap praise on Brad.

To me, theyre functionally the same thing, with Doc probably slightly better due to his ability to deal with superstar ego’s. But its just uncomfortable to me with how they both were regarded by fans overall.

Nobody had Tatum anywhere near the top 10 before the start of this season though. Tatums leap has been massive and the main reason why we’ve exceeded preseason expectations. Your point would be better if we knew Tatum was a top 10 guy coming in, but nobody did. The entire country was expecting Milwaukee vs Philly in the ECF.

I don’t get this take either about Nurse. I thought Nurse was terrible this series. Couldn’t get a thing going for Siakam all series other than ISO post ups, stuck with Gasol in the starting lineup for all 7 games when it was clear he had nothing left in the tank. They basically relied on Lowry hitting big balls shots and FVV doing the same. Sure they threw out of a bunch of different defenses for a 7 game series but the stats say we had far more open looks than the raptors did over the course of the series, our guys just shot poorly for a lot of the games.

I could see dropping Brad down to somewhere in the 5 range, but 12? I’d like to see the list of 11 other coaches better cause frankly I don’t see that at all
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#106 » by MagicBagley18 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:44 am

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
I just can’t agree with the fact we didn’t overachieve this year.....we lost kyrie horford and are in the ECF with a real shot to make the finals. We had a top defense and offense. We have a 22 yr old being handed the keys and to Tatums credit he made the leap. Browns made a solid jump as hard as I am on him.


Tatum is a top 10 player. Kemba started an ASG and is a top ~25 guy. Brown is top 40. Hayward is top 40. Smart is top 75.

Thats a **** ton of talent, man. Overachieving is when you coach a team led by IT, Bradley and Jae Crowder and make the ECFs. Or when Horford and a bunch of eary career guys get to a game 7 vs LeBron. Massive difference from a bunch of top tier players taking you there.

Did Brad help? Sure, Brown and Tatum undoubtedly developed under partial guidance from Brad. But they also were notably developed by playing for Pop/Kerr on the national team [I’ve got the receipts on commenting how impressive Brown’s handle became]. They also worked their ass off on their own. Personally, I generally prefer to credit the player for development more than the coach. These guys will either work their ass off in the summer or they wont. Our guys did.

I also can’t agree yet that stevens can’t coach superstars. You’re evidence is he couldn’t handle kyrie- how many coaches can? he seems to have a good relationship with Tatum and Tatum is a top 10 player by most accounts here. Is it a guarantee he can handle the modern day star? No but I don’t think it’s fair to say he can’t and shouldn’t a coach get some of the credit for his young players developing?
Not all but def some and Tatum and brown have most definitely developed.


Agree to disagree. His previous lack of a pecking order and commitment to equal opportunity sharing hurt him previously. He’s shown growth this year, admittedly.

you can say nurse coached circles around and nurse was great but stevens also exhibited top level coaching in that series. By all account any observer who knows will tell you that their was elite coaching by both sides and at the end of the day stevens team won the series and won the season series 3-1.


I guess my read, after watching that series, was that we were a significantly better team. That shouldnt have been a 7 game series, nor that close at the end. But maybe your right and thats more of a credit to Nurse than a demerit to Brad.

I think when anyone watches a team as passionately as we do for 7 years we see all the warts of our coach - magnified. Stevens makes me mad at times and has me questioning his decisions a lot but he’s a top level elite coach IMO. He may not deliver the messages the way I like or we want but it certainly gets across.


I guess my take is this. Many speak as if he’s a top 3, elite coach. He’s not. He’s somewhere in the 5-12 range. That makes him overrated to me.

On the whole, I also just kinda cringe at the weirdness of it all. I remember multiple users on this board trashing Doc right before we traded him to LA. Some of them now heap praise on Brad.

To me, theyre functionally the same thing, with Doc probably slightly better due to his ability to deal with superstar ego’s. But its just uncomfortable to me with how they both were regarded by fans overall.


You make great points. mostly we can agree to disagree but I’m not gonna discredit brad for Tatums development and chalk a majority of it up to 4 weeks of playing with pop. I read the same articles. Brad does deserve real credit for that too.

we realize Tatums a top 10 talent- now. We hoped he’d be coming into the year. It was up in the air. We hoped Jaylen would make a jump coming into the year- he did. There’s no doubt being w pop is invaluable and those players deserve credit for putting in the work but them making those leaps were question marks entering the year.


Coming into the season we all said for the season to be successful we need ;

Tatum to make a leap...he did
Brown to improve a lot....he did
We need Hayward to stay healthy....he didn’t but we still made it work even so

We also needed our weakest position on paper (center) to be serviceable/good...they were.

We beat the raptors without Hayward....I think most people predicted a 7 game series going in and that’s what we got. Obviously having a 2-0 lead we made it way too tough but like you said they have a great coach and good team too.

I’d say this season is a success and now we have a legit chance to make the finals and compete.

But you def have made great arguments
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#107 » by MagicBagley18 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:16 am

I’m doing this off the top of my head half in the bag but pop,Kerr,spo,Carlisle those are the top 4 universally I’d say...then there’s doc and nurse. At worst that makes him 7 but again that’s at worst. unless I’m having a serious brain fart
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#108 » by SmartWentCrazy » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:36 am

Homerclease wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
I just can’t agree with the fact we didn’t overachieve this year.....we lost kyrie horford and are in the ECF with a real shot to make the finals. We had a top defense and offense. We have a 22 yr old being handed the keys and to Tatums credit he made the leap. Browns made a solid jump as hard as I am on him.


Tatum is a top 10 player. Kemba started an ASG and is a top ~25 guy. Brown is top 40. Hayward is top 40. Smart is top 75.

Thats a **** ton of talent, man. Overachieving is when you coach a team led by IT, Bradley and Jae Crowder and make the ECFs. Or when Horford and a bunch of eary career guys get to a game 7 vs LeBron. Massive difference from a bunch of top tier players taking you there.

Did Brad help? Sure, Brown and Tatum undoubtedly developed under partial guidance from Brad. But they also were notably developed by playing for Pop/Kerr on the national team [I’ve got the receipts on commenting how impressive Brown’s handle became]. They also worked their ass off on their own. Personally, I generally prefer to credit the player for development more than the coach. These guys will either work their ass off in the summer or they wont. Our guys did.

I also can’t agree yet that stevens can’t coach superstars. You’re evidence is he couldn’t handle kyrie- how many coaches can? he seems to have a good relationship with Tatum and Tatum is a top 10 player by most accounts here. Is it a guarantee he can handle the modern day star? No but I don’t think it’s fair to say he can’t and shouldn’t a coach get some of the credit for his young players developing?
Not all but def some and Tatum and brown have most definitely developed.


Agree to disagree. His previous lack of a pecking order and commitment to equal opportunity sharing hurt him previously. He’s shown growth this year, admittedly.

you can say nurse coached circles around and nurse was great but stevens also exhibited top level coaching in that series. By all account any observer who knows will tell you that their was elite coaching by both sides and at the end of the day stevens team won the series and won the season series 3-1.


I guess my read, after watching that series, was that we were a significantly better team. That shouldnt have been a 7 game series, nor that close at the end. But maybe your right and thats more of a credit to Nurse than a demerit to Brad.

I think when anyone watches a team as passionately as we do for 7 years we see all the warts of our coach - magnified. Stevens makes me mad at times and has me questioning his decisions a lot but he’s a top level elite coach IMO. He may not deliver the messages the way I like or we want but it certainly gets across.


I guess my take is this. Many speak as if he’s a top 3, elite coach. He’s not. He’s somewhere in the 5-12 range. That makes him overrated to me.

On the whole, I also just kinda cringe at the weirdness of it all. I remember multiple users on this board trashing Doc right before we traded him to LA. Some of them now heap praise on Brad.

To me, theyre functionally the same thing, with Doc probably slightly better due to his ability to deal with superstar ego’s. But its just uncomfortable to me with how they both were regarded by fans overall.

Nobody had Tatum anywhere near the top 10 before the start of this season though. Tatums leap has been massive and the main reason why we’ve exceeded preseason expectations. Your point would be better if we knew Tatum was a top 10 guy coming in, but nobody did. The entire country was expecting Milwaukee vs Philly in the ECF.

I don’t get this take either about Nurse. I thought Nurse was terrible this series. Couldn’t get a thing going for Siakam all series other than ISO post ups, stuck with Gasol in the starting lineup for all 7 games when it was clear he had nothing left in the tank. They basically relied on Lowry hitting big balls shots and FVV doing the same. Sure they threw out of a bunch of different defenses for a 7 game series but the stats say we had far more open looks than the raptors did over the course of the series, our guys just shot poorly for a lot of the games.

I could see dropping Brad down to somewhere in the 5 range, but 12? I’d like to see the list of 11 other coaches better cause frankly I don’t see that at all


No one talks overachieving based on regular season results— its playoff driven. And while your right, start of the regular season he wasnt there. But lets not pretend that there wasnt basically a second offseason from March -July and that our dudes didnt get a hell of a lot better. Or that Tatum wasnt a fringe top 10 guy pre-bubble that became a solid top 10 guy from working his ass off on the extra break.

And you cant just ‘yada yada yada’ over what Nurse did defensively— they threw different look after different look after different look and really messed with our top 5 offense. That **** was super impressive. We were a much better team and they took us to the wire. That resonates with me.

My list of coaches better? Nurse, Spo, Pop, Carlisle. He’s on the same tier with Doc, Kerr, MDA, IMO. I also totally get people propping Donovan as similar as well given the year OKC just had. Would rate Snyder and Malone near him as well. I have him probably at 7 [Doc and Kerr above him], but understand the argument for the others. My argument is that, condidering him as top 3—which many do— is overrating him.
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#109 » by Celts17Pride » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:41 am

fallguy wrote:It's a fun thought experiment to imagine D'Antoni coaching this team.

Puke!
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#110 » by ConstableGeneva » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:46 am

MagicBagley18 wrote:I’m doing this off the top of my head half in the bag but pop,Kerr,spo,Carlisle those are the top 4 universally I’d say...then there’s doc and nurse. At worst that makes him 7 but again that’s at worst. unless I’m having a serious brain fart

Pop - Duncan, Manu, Parker, Kawhi
Spo - Lebron, Wade
Carlisle - DIrk, Kidd, (Doncic)
Kerr - Curry, KD, Klay
Doc - KG, Pierce, Ray, Griffin, CP3, (PG), (Kawhi)
Nurse - Kawhi

If anything, Carlisle and Doc should've won more titles. Kerr blew a 3-1 lead w/ a 73-win roster. They get their reps largely because they already won a title. With ALL-TIME GREATS.

Prior to this season, who on Stevens' past six rosters beats out anyone of those guys? Could any of the coaches above have won a title with the rosters Stevens has had?

Only time I'd probably be out on Stevens is if it's not working out between him and Tatum/(name hypothetical superstar here). Kyrie doesn't count.
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#111 » by MagicBagley18 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:47 am

ConstableGeneva wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:I’m doing this off the top of my head half in the bag but pop,Kerr,spo,Carlisle those are the top 4 universally I’d say...then there’s doc and nurse. At worst that makes him 7 but again that’s at worst. unless I’m having a serious brain fart

Pop - Duncan, Manu, Parker, Kawhi
Spo - Lebron, Wade
Carlisle - DIrk, Kidd, (Doncic)
Kerr - Curry, KD, Klay
Doc - KG, Pierce, Ray, Griffin, CP3, (PG), (Kawhi)
Nurse - Kawhi

If anything, Carlisle and Doc should've won more titles. Kerr blew a 3-1 lead w/ a 73-win roster. They get their reps largely because they already won a title. With ALL-TIME GREATS.

Prior to this season, who on Stevens' past six rosters beats out anyone of those guys? Could any of the coaches above won a title with the rosters Stevens has had?

Only time I'd probably be out on Stevens is if it's not working out between him and Tatum/(name hypothetical superstar here). Kyrie doesn't count.


I also would like nick nurse to try and make it work with the roster stevens had last year and alternately let stevens try and make it work with kawhi’s raptors and let’s see the results
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#112 » by ConstableGeneva » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:51 am

fallguy wrote:It's a fun thought experiment to imagine D'Antoni coaching this team.

I wouldn't be opposed as having him as an assistant coach handling offense. Like Ron Adams (defense) with the Warriors.

But I highly doubt he ever accepts an assistant coaching gig again.
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#113 » by ConstableGeneva » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:50 am

For the "Nurse ran circles around Stevens" crowd or the "Brad made no adjustments" crowd...



Side-note: Stevens had to throw away half of his playbook when Kyrie was here. I don't know the real reason for it, but since I'm biased against that ****, I think it was because the "basketball genius" couldn't be bothered with learning/executing those plays. Buy-in from players is important, as we've seen from IT & co. and now again with this group.
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#114 » by Curmudgeon » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:37 pm

MagicBagley18 wrote:I’m doing this off the top of my head half in the bag but pop,Kerr,spo,Carlisle those are the top 4 universally I’d say...then there’s doc and nurse. At worst that makes him 7 but again that’s at worst. unless I’m having a serious brain fart


I wouldn't put Rivers in my top 30.
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"Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. Rebounding wins championships." Pat Summit
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#115 » by MagicBagley18 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:57 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:I’m doing this off the top of my head half in the bag but pop,Kerr,spo,Carlisle those are the top 4 universally I’d say...then there’s doc and nurse. At worst that makes him 7 but again that’s at worst. unless I’m having a serious brain fart


I wouldn't put Rivers in my top 30.


I’ll put that in my notes for reference
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#116 » by LuckyLeprechaun » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:09 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:I’m doing this off the top of my head half in the bag but pop,Kerr,spo,Carlisle those are the top 4 universally I’d say...then there’s doc and nurse. At worst that makes him 7 but again that’s at worst. unless I’m having a serious brain fart


I wouldn't put Rivers in my top 30.


A bit harsh, but yeah Doc has no business being in the discussion of top coaches. His Magic and Clippers teams both underachieved. No excuse for this years Clippers team to be in a game 7 against the Nuggets or a game 6 against a banged up Mavs team. This Clippers team was considered an even bet with the Lakers and Bucks to win the title this year and they are struggling to put away lesser opponents. His CP3/Blake/DJ teams were also considered contenders for a few years and never did anything in the playoffs.
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#117 » by Curmudgeon » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:13 pm

MagicBagley18 wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:I’m doing this off the top of my head half in the bag but pop,Kerr,spo,Carlisle those are the top 4 universally I’d say...then there’s doc and nurse. At worst that makes him 7 but again that’s at worst. unless I’m having a serious brain fart


I wouldn't put Rivers in my top 30.


I’ll put that in my notes for reference


Please do that.

Rivers is like one of those actors on doctor shows. They look like physicians on TV but you wouldn't want them performing surgery on you. Rivers is very good at playing an NBA coach on TV.

Rivers won one championship with a loaded veteran team that didn't really need a coach. Then he failed to win the next two years with basically the same group. When Garnett and Pierce were traded he asked out (thankfully) because he didn't want to be part of a rebuild. He went to another loaded team, with Chris Paul, a young and healthy Blake Griffin, DeAndre Jordan, Jordan Crawford and JJ Redick. He couldn't get to the WC finals even once with that team--in fact they lost twice in the first round. He's got another loaded roster this year, and he's in danger of getting bounced again.
"Numbers lie alot. Wins and losses don't lie." - Jerry West

"You are what your record says you are."- Bill Parcells

"Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. Rebounding wins championships." Pat Summit
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#118 » by Slax » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:51 pm

I come at this from the defense side. We have an impressive collection of individual talent, but the roster construction is imperfect. Insofar as we are a championship contender now, it's in large part because of how successful our defense is at hiding Kemba and at denying entry passes so that teams can't exploit our lack of size. And this isn't really specific to this year's roster; Stevens managed the same type of thing a few years ago with our extremely undersized IT/Bradley backcourt. Consistently, we have rosters with exploitable gaps and weaknesses, and consistently, we manage to blow past those concerns and play championship-caliber defense. Obviously some of the preseason concerns about our talent level were completely off base (the idea that a team with Tatum, Kemba, Hayward, and Brown would struggle to even make the playoffs was pure idiocy), but the fact that concerns about a Tatum/Theis frontcourt being too small never really materialized even in playoff series against Sixers and Raptors teams that were poised to exploit it is more impressive than some people are letting on.

A lot of the anti-Brad arguments are currently hinging on "If you compare the Celtics and Raptors players one to one, the Celtics players are better than the Raptors players, yet the Raptors nearly beat us in a seven-game series," and I just struggle to put much into that. For one, I think FVV and especially Siakam are being massively underrated here. And two, think it's easy to imagine a counter-history where with a different coach, the Celtics never really put together a great defense that can hide the deficiencies of Kemba and Theis as starters, in which case the Raptors would be a much better team than us even though our individual collection of players would be superior. Without the team putting together that elite defense, the roster would look like it wasn't constructed to be a championship contender, and the blame for that would go to Ainge instead of Brad. I can also imagine other counter-histories where very small changes that aren't strictly up to coaches (a player sticking to his man on defense, the refs calling a foul they missed, a player not making a boneheaded turnover at a critical moment, players making free throws they should have, etc) resulting in the Raptors series going five or six games or the seventh game being a blowout instead of having a close seven, and then there wouldn't be as much retrospective complaining about coaching in a series we ended up winning against a really good opponent.

I don't know if this necessarily makes Brad an "elite" coach, but he has played an important role in getting us to the ECF three out of four seasons in spite of huge roster weaknesses in every one of those playoff runs, and I think that proves that he is significantly more talented than the replacement-level coaches out there who are easy to find. Finding someone better to replace him with without causing a roster mutiny would be a REALLY difficult task.
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#119 » by Curmudgeon » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:06 pm

The only way Stevens gets replaced is if he wants to leave. Ainge knows how good Stevens is, and that's why they put a new set of golden handcuffs on him every other year. I don't love everything Stevens does, but he's the best coach in the NBA after Popovich.

He's not a demonstrative coach but neither was Larry Brown. Speaking of Brown, the absolute greatest coaching job in NBA history was Brown getting the Clippers to the playoffs in 1991 and 1992. That team had Danny Manning and a bunch of retreads. In 1992 Brown won 41 games but they didn't renew his contract. The next year, with basically the same roster plus Dominique Wilkins (who averaged nearly 30 ppg), the team won 27 games under Bob Weiss. It went from 11th overall defensively to 27th-- dead last.
"Numbers lie alot. Wins and losses don't lie." - Jerry West

"You are what your record says you are."- Bill Parcells

"Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. Rebounding wins championships." Pat Summit
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Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#120 » by Bleeding Green » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:10 pm

Does Stevens ever get outcoached in a playoff series? The only way he loses is if he plays against LeBron or if Kyrie is on the team.
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