ImageImageImage

If not Brad, who?

Moderators: sully00, djFan71, ParticleMan, Froob, canman1971, The Comedian, Parliament10

SMTBSI
RealGM
Posts: 13,589
And1: 20,101
Joined: Jun 27, 2014
 

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#81 » by SMTBSI » Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:41 pm

One of the opinions I don't share very often, because it's not generally a battle I have a lot of interest in fighting, is that I'm not the board's biggest Brad Stevens fan. He hasn't convinced me yet. And that's not a reaction to anything going on these playoffs or this season. I've never been sold.

But.

All the "Fire Brad" "Fire Ainge" chatter will look pretty silly a week from now when we're deep in a pitched battle with Miami to go to the Finals. Now's just not the time.
User avatar
JHTruth
RealGM
Posts: 12,657
And1: 937
Joined: Jul 02, 2003
Location: The Big Three are Back..

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#82 » by JHTruth » Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:33 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Ed Pinkney wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
2) He’s overrated and I dont believe he’s a championship level coach




I find this line of thinking (from mulitple posters here) a little baffling to be honest. What exactly is a championship level coach until they actually win a championship? How do you even define that?

Is Popovic a championship coach if he isn't gifted Duncan? How long does he coach if the Spurs never won a championship or Duncan bolted for Orlando? What exactly has Spoelstra done when he hasn't had peak James, Wade and Bosh? Oh, and if Popovic didn't cost the Spurs the Ray Allen game, the Heat might have lost three out of four Finals he coached.


Yes, Pop is the best coach of all time. Look at the championship team he had in 2014— Duncan was 37. That team wasnt the most talented team in the league, but they got the most possible out of that team coming off a devastating loss the previous year.

Spo just pantsed the two-time MVP last round. He repeatedly has gotten an untalented roster to vastly outperform expectations and has never had a season as disappointing as Stevens had last year.

A championship level coach is someone who is able to look an alpha-level player in the eyes and command respect. Pop does that. Spo does that. Stevens does not.

If the Raptors don't trade for Leonard and Durant and Thompson don't get injured I am pretty sure everyone looks at Nick Nurse in a different way.

Has Stevens ever been the main reason the Celtics have lost a playoff series? I would argue no he hasn't. Have the Celtics overachieved almost every season he has been there? I would say in most cases yes. Do players get better playing for him? I would say yes. Do players who leave the Celtics all of sudden become better? I would say definitely not.


Nurse coached his ass off vs GS and the defensive adjustments he threw at them befuddled the crap out of them. FOH with that criticism.

The last two years Stevens has had a supremely talented team. We vastly underperformed last season. I wouldnt say we overperformed this year, either— I think fans have a tendency to want to undersell our talent level to overstate Stevens’ impact. The stuff your doing is great, but dudes like Kenny Atkinson or Nate McMillan can say the exact same thing. Are they championship level coaches? Or are they just unemployed?

Is he perfect or not need to get better? Of course not. Could someone potentially do better with the exact same roster/injury list/opponents etc? Possibly, but there is not one single coach you could categorically say that they would be able to do so.


Sure, but this isnt an arrow in the quiver of Steens being a championship level coach.

Front office stability, good ownership and a good coach are all surprisingly hard to have at the same time in the NBA and I think the Celtics have that. In the end, talent wins championships and at the moment the Celtics might not have enough of it who are ready to get the team to that point. That's what it boils down to.


Again, people need to stop underselling our talent. We have a 22 year old fringe top 10 guy. Kemba started the ASG. Jaylen was a fringe all-star. This isnt the 2016 try hard team— were really, really good.


Don't hold your breath. The CBS cult will tear you to shreds. I'd trade Brad for Nurse in .5 seconds flat.
User avatar
Ed Pinkney
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,327
And1: 3,557
Joined: Jun 23, 2007
Location: Australia
 

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#83 » by Ed Pinkney » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:45 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Ed Pinkney wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
2) He’s overrated and I dont believe he’s a championship level coach




I find this line of thinking (from mulitple posters here) a little baffling to be honest. What exactly is a championship level coach until they actually win a championship? How do you even define that?

Is Popovic a championship coach if he isn't gifted Duncan? How long does he coach if the Spurs never won a championship or Duncan bolted for Orlando? What exactly has Spoelstra done when he hasn't had peak James, Wade and Bosh? Oh, and if Popovic didn't cost the Spurs the Ray Allen game, the Heat might have lost three out of four Finals he coached.


Yes, Pop is the best coach of all time. Look at the championship team he had in 2014— Duncan was 37. That team wasnt the most talented team in the league, but they got the most possible out of that team coming off a devastating loss the previous year.

Spo just pantsed the two-time MVP last round. He repeatedly has gotten an untalented roster to vastly outperform expectations and has never had a season as disappointing as Stevens had last year.

A championship level coach is someone who is able to look an alpha-level player in the eyes and command respect. Pop does that. Spo does that. Stevens does not.

If the Raptors don't trade for Leonard and Durant and Thompson don't get injured I am pretty sure everyone looks at Nick Nurse in a different way.

Has Stevens ever been the main reason the Celtics have lost a playoff series? I would argue no he hasn't. Have the Celtics overachieved almost every season he has been there? I would say in most cases yes. Do players get better playing for him? I would say yes. Do players who leave the Celtics all of sudden become better? I would say definitely not.


Nurse coached his ass off vs GS and the defensive adjustments he threw at them befuddled the crap out of them. FOH with that criticism.

The last two years Stevens has had a supremely talented team. We vastly underperformed last season. I wouldnt say we overperformed this year, either— I think fans have a tendency to want to undersell our talent level to overstate Stevens’ impact. The stuff your doing is great, but dudes like Kenny Atkinson or Nate McMillan can say the exact same thing. Are they championship level coaches? Or are they just unemployed?

Is he perfect or not need to get better? Of course not. Could someone potentially do better with the exact same roster/injury list/opponents etc? Possibly, but there is not one single coach you could categorically say that they would be able to do so.


Sure, but this isnt an arrow in the quiver of Steens being a championship level coach.

Front office stability, good ownership and a good coach are all surprisingly hard to have at the same time in the NBA and I think the Celtics have that. In the end, talent wins championships and at the moment the Celtics might not have enough of it who are ready to get the team to that point. That's what it boils down to.


Again, people need to stop underselling our talent. We have a 22 year old fringe top 10 guy. Kemba started the ASG. Jaylen was a fringe all-star. This isnt the 2016 try hard team— were really, really good.



I am not saying that Popovic, Spoelstra, Nurse etc aren't good coaches, you seemed to have missed my point. I was saying that if they hadn't actually won championships people probably wouldn't hold them up as this paragon of coaching.

What amazing things has Popovic done exactly since the 2014 Finals? And Spoelstra has missed the playoffs as many times as made it since those same Finals. And in terms of the Heat beating the Bucks, I think on balance you could say that Budenholzer is a pretty shakey opponent, he has been swept mutiple times when coaching 60 win teams which is not a great advertisement for his coaching. If Durant and Thompson don't get injured last year, or James is still in the Eastern Conference, do people think Nurse is that much better than Dwayne Casey? Because I personally don't see the Raptors winning a championship last year without those injuries.

You need to be a good coach, you need to have championship level playing talent, and you need a heap of luck in order to win a championship. Those guys were lucky enough to have all three happen at the same time.

Again, my point was/is not that any of those guys are not good coaches. Or that Stevens is better than any of them. My point was that I don't see any evidence that any of them (or any other coach) would necessarily be doing a better job with this team, without Hayward, in a disrupted season, playing at a theme park. That is all.
LuckyLeprechaun
Pro Prospect
Posts: 789
And1: 938
Joined: Jul 24, 2015
 

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#84 » by LuckyLeprechaun » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:42 pm

Those of you who want Brad to show more emotion, what evidence do you have that that makes a coach better?

Popovich and Phil Jackson are considered 2 of the best in the past 30 years and have a reputation for being stoic and emotionless. Bill B also is considered emotionless. Across sports history the GOAT coaches have tons of guys like this.
threrf23
RealGM
Posts: 13,474
And1: 2,982
Joined: Mar 22, 2004
Contact:

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#85 » by threrf23 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:05 am

LuckyLeprechaun wrote:Those of you who want Brad to show more emotion, what evidence do you have that that makes a coach better?

Popovich and Phil Jackson are considered 2 of the best in the past 30 years and have a reputation for being stoic and emotionless. Bill B also is considered emotionless. Across sports history the GOAT coaches have tons of guys like this.


Phil Jackson was stoic and poised, I'm not so sure about emotionless though. Same with Pop.

But I agree that Brad needs to be himself and that his composure is a strength.

Although I feel we might benefit from adding an opposite personality to our coaching staff.
User avatar
TheMartian
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,825
And1: 2,703
Joined: Oct 13, 2004
 

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#86 » by TheMartian » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:05 am

jfs1000d
RealGM
Posts: 22,080
And1: 9,170
Joined: Jun 25, 2004

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#87 » by jfs1000d » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:14 am

Most of the people who want brad fired like coaches who scream and are demonstrative.

Xs and Os? Brad’s is as good as they come.

brad’s job is

1. Organization
2. Inspiration
3. Discipline
4. Game planning
5. Talent utilization

He is B+ to A in all those areas. Especially organization.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Celticsfromda6
Ballboy
Posts: 22
And1: 5
Joined: Sep 07, 2020
       

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#88 » by Celticsfromda6 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:14 am


Read on Twitter
?s=21


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
lon3lytoaster
Analyst
Posts: 3,430
And1: 2,153
Joined: Oct 03, 2011

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#89 » by lon3lytoaster » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:29 am

I don’t think you get anyone better than Brad at the moment that immediately comes to mind but I would consider parting with him if I were Danny and Co. especially if they drop game seven. How many coaches have lost 3-2 leads and stayed in their position? Multiple times?

He’s too passive and overthink, outsmarts himself constantly. Game 3 is a prime example of this. Also extremely poor offensive sets that work well for the average role player to perform above average, but apart from IT (who just balled the way he wanted to) I think Atevens struggles getting his best scorers into positions to be their best. Don’t love his basketball communism approach to coaching.
User avatar
Taget
Veteran
Posts: 2,966
And1: 2,284
Joined: Apr 24, 2004
     

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#90 » by Taget » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:07 am

There is only a handful of teams who aren't saying, "I wish we had Brad instead." And given those are the ones with coaches I would even consider I'd be loathed to do anything besides stay pat. He's not perfect but no one is. And is about as good as we're going to get given what is out there.

But to answer your question if we part ways with Brad (which we shouldn't) and assuming guys like Nurse, Spo, and Pop aren't going anywhere. I guess given his track record, Phil Jackson. My second choice would be Ettore Messina.
[quote:545636310b="Darth Celtic"]man, these refs need to stop giving us the benefit of the doubt and start screwing us.[/quote]

Image
sam_I_am
RealGM
Posts: 13,279
And1: 4,861
Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#91 » by sam_I_am » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:18 am

I love Brad and am rarely critical but I don’t think he knows how to use coach’s challenge. He really blew it in this series and left a crumb on the table in every game. Why save the challenge? If you can overturn a play.....just do it.
Spizite
Sophomore
Posts: 184
And1: 46
Joined: Jun 29, 2010
     

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#92 » by Spizite » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:44 am

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Ed Pinkney wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
2) He’s overrated and I dont believe he’s a championship level coach




I find this line of thinking (from mulitple posters here) a little baffling to be honest. What exactly is a championship level coach until they actually win a championship? How do you even define that?

Is Popovic a championship coach if he isn't gifted Duncan? How long does he coach if the Spurs never won a championship or Duncan bolted for Orlando? What exactly has Spoelstra done when he hasn't had peak James, Wade and Bosh? Oh, and if Popovic didn't cost the Spurs the Ray Allen game, the Heat might have lost three out of four Finals he coached.


Yes, Pop is the best coach of all time. Look at the championship team he had in 2014— Duncan was 37. That team wasnt the most talented team in the league, but they got the most possible out of that team coming off a devastating loss the previous year.

Spo just pantsed the two-time MVP last round. He repeatedly has gotten an untalented roster to vastly outperform expectations and has never had a season as disappointing as Stevens had last year.

A championship level coach is someone who is able to look an alpha-level player in the eyes and command respect. Pop does that. Spo does that. Stevens does not.

If the Raptors don't trade for Leonard and Durant and Thompson don't get injured I am pretty sure everyone looks at Nick Nurse in a different way.

Has Stevens ever been the main reason the Celtics have lost a playoff series? I would argue no he hasn't. Have the Celtics overachieved almost every season he has been there? I would say in most cases yes. Do players get better playing for him? I would say yes. Do players who leave the Celtics all of sudden become better? I would say definitely not.


Nurse coached his ass off vs GS and the defensive adjustments he threw at them befuddled the crap out of them. FOH with that criticism.

The last two years Stevens has had a supremely talented team. We vastly underperformed last season. I wouldnt say we overperformed this year, either— I think fans have a tendency to want to undersell our talent level to overstate Stevens’ impact. The stuff your doing is great, but dudes like Kenny Atkinson or Nate McMillan can say the exact same thing. Are they championship level coaches? Or are they just unemployed?

Is he perfect or not need to get better? Of course not. Could someone potentially do better with the exact same roster/injury list/opponents etc? Possibly, but there is not one single coach you could categorically say that they would be able to do so.


Sure, but this isnt an arrow in the quiver of Steens being a championship level coach.

Front office stability, good ownership and a good coach are all surprisingly hard to have at the same time in the NBA and I think the Celtics have that. In the end, talent wins championships and at the moment the Celtics might not have enough of it who are ready to get the team to that point. That's what it boils down to.


Again, people need to stop underselling our talent. We have a 22 year old fringe top 10 guy. Kemba started the ASG. Jaylen was a fringe all-star. This isnt the 2016 try hard team— were really, really good.


Dude what are you talking about with Pop commanding respect. Did Kawhi not just leave his ass? What about when Aldridge demanded a trade? Pop's "legendary" respect left with Duncan - when your best player doesn't want to follow your lead there's nothing you can do. Doesn't matter which coach you are. If you want to blame Stevens for Kyrie being an idiot, then fine. But look at the Nets - that was a playoff team last year without him and they had a better record when he didn't play this year. Same situation as with the Celtics when we had Kyrie

Spo? How many years has he missed the playoffs after Lebron left while Brad was making the playoffs with the likes of Isiah Thomas and Evan Turner. He lost two finals with probably the second greatest collection of talent outside of the Warriors with Durant to the Mavericks and Spurs

Nurse winning the title with the Raptors - FOH here with that criticism? They were missing Durant and still won a pair of games off of them. You think they win if the Warriors have their best player? Nurse is a great coach obviously but if a team is missing their best player I don't know how that isn't relevant context

Those two are great coaches but any criticism you can point at Brad you can point right back at those guys. We were missing Hayward for this series and the series would've been over in 5 if Brown had not missed his rotation. All against the 2nd best team in the East that was at full strength and being coached by the "coach of the year"

In any case, this thread is pointless. Brad isn't going anywhere. Thank god
Theocy
Pro Prospect
Posts: 858
And1: 768
Joined: Aug 27, 2017
 

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#93 » by Theocy » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:00 am

We're in the ECF yet another year, with no true superstar in the team, having swept 6ers and won the Raps. We've previously been to the ECF with the likes of Rozier, Turner, a rookie and a 21 Yr old jaylen. There hasn't been a single player that left this team and actually made something out of himself. We've turned isiah from a non factor to an mvp candidate hiding him in a defense that was one of the best in the league. We've had some of the unluckiest seasons with injuries to Gordon and Kyrie. The one year Kyrie was back and you could argue the talent was there, Gordon wasn't ready and Kyrie decided to stop caring.

Brad has given us success way above our skill level. People saying we are talented severely overestimate our talent. Golden state are talented. The clippers are talented. Outside our starting 5 and smart we're at best mediocre unless you think players like ojeleye or grant Williams could make an impact on any of the other 3 final contenders. Tatum our most skilled player is still too inconsistent. Jaylen is the same. We've beat teams with more talent (on paper) than us. And we still complain.

The roster isn't a championship calibre roster. It's that simple.
User avatar
Ill News
Veteran
Posts: 2,529
And1: 5,134
Joined: Jul 17, 2016
       

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#94 » by Ill News » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:26 am

Theocy wrote:We're in the ECF yet another year, with no true superstar in the team, having swept 6ers and won the Raps. We've previously been to the ECF with the likes of Rozier, Turner, a rookie and a 21 Yr old jaylen. There hasn't been a single player that left this team and actually made something out of himself. We've turned isiah from a non factor to an mvp candidate hiding him in a defense that was one of the best in the league. We've had some of the unluckiest seasons with injuries to Gordon and Kyrie. The one year Kyrie was back and you could argue the talent was there, Gordon wasn't ready and Kyrie decided to stop caring.

Brad has given us success way above our skill level. People saying we are talented severely overestimate our talent. Golden state are talented. The clippers are talented. Outside our starting 5 and smart we're at best mediocre unless you think players like ojeleye or grant Williams could make an impact on any of the other 3 final contenders. Tatum our most skilled player is still too inconsistent. Jaylen is the same. We've beat teams with more talent (on paper) than us. And we still complain.

The roster isn't a championship calibre roster. It's that simple.

I'd normally argue against this, but we really didn't start the year as serious contenders. Our bench was severely weakened, we lost Horford who's considered our anchor on defense, and we didn't even have a reliable center on paper.

But we've exceeded expectations again. I really think it's our chemistry that's lifting this team to new heights. Of course there's the individual development of Tatum and Brown, but without Kemba's smiling leadership and the overall goofiness of our other guys (looking at Grant, Carsen, Tacko, Poirier, Kanter), this team wouldn't be where it is now. They just keep picking each other up through adversity, and that's what will propel us to a possible title.

All in all, our great chemistry is what has me believing we can win a title this year. Our roster might not look like a championship roster, but its intangibles are undeniable.

And yes, this year has been another Brad Stevens special. Third ECF in 4 years, and this is a year when the East has significantly improved. It's about time Brad takes two more big steps and lead this team to the 18th title.
Ernest
Senior
Posts: 519
And1: 430
Joined: Jun 16, 2019
 

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#95 » by Ernest » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:41 pm

Oh man, this thread is still a thing? Wow. Just wow. Someone should go through all the old "fire Ainge for trading away Al Jefferson for KG" ones and see if its the same people now still unhappy.
User avatar
ConstableGeneva
RealGM
Posts: 30,729
And1: 59,153
Joined: Sep 22, 2012
Location: Parody Account
 

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#96 » by ConstableGeneva » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:15 pm

I very rarely peek at the GB and the Raps board but I'm wondering whether the Toronto fans are second-guessing their COTY for playing Gasol as much as he had, not going to their effective micro-ball as early/often, not getting their all-star Siakam in a better position to succeed, for such lousy, stagnant offensive execution in the 4th quarter, and for not imploring their guards to attack the paint more.
User avatar
ConstableGeneva
RealGM
Posts: 30,729
And1: 59,153
Joined: Sep 22, 2012
Location: Parody Account
 

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#97 » by ConstableGeneva » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:25 pm

Read on Twitter

3 ECFs in 4 yrs. Without a Harden/Curry-level star.
User avatar
BillTheGOAT
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,853
And1: 1,731
Joined: Oct 23, 2008
 

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#98 » by BillTheGOAT » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:02 pm

Mike Malone
TommyPointGawd
Senior
Posts: 677
And1: 726
Joined: Jul 05, 2014
       

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#99 » by TommyPointGawd » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:36 pm

Brad does show emotions. He just isn't over the top. I'm sure if he tried to run around like Nurse it would seem ridiculous and fake. Nobody gains respect by acting out of character.

His style is what it is. I think he can win a championship with it. His players are mostly home grown and they have accountability on both ends of the Court. I think he may struggle with outside established superstars that may be used to a different approach. Keep that in mind for all the guys that want to build a 2k roster. Especially for the guys that want Embiid.
I apologize for the things I have said in the past. :cry:
CelticsPride18
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,037
And1: 5,888
Joined: Oct 31, 2013
       

Re: If not Brad, who? 

Post#100 » by CelticsPride18 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:28 pm

We should fire Brad and hire Doc again he screams and motivates his players and you get the bonus of blowing 3-1 leads.

Return to Boston Celtics