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Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard!

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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#441 » by GregB » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:03 am

flintsky21 wrote:A bit worried about his dwindling minutes. He's a shooter and he needs to play to keep his confidence up, and we're going to need him in the playoffs. At this point, TT, Langford, Grant and Payton should be taking up all the bench minutes, with Semi only playing when one of the 9 rotation guys had to miss a game.


I don’t know. Have you been watching him lately? He has looked fairly mediocre. Plus I know he tries to compete but he’s not a great defender.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#442 » by flintsky21 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:44 am

GregB wrote:
flintsky21 wrote:A bit worried about his dwindling minutes. He's a shooter and he needs to play to keep his confidence up, and we're going to need him in the playoffs. At this point, TT, Langford, Grant and Payton should be taking up all the bench minutes, with Semi only playing when one of the 9 rotation guys had to miss a game.


I don’t know. Have you been watching him lately? He has looked fairly mediocre. Plus I know he tries to compete but he’s not a great defender.

Not everyone on the team has to be a lockdown defender. And isn't the bench already full of defense-oriented guys with Grant, TT, and Langford? His value to the team is his shooting and at times playmaking. Recently, if Payton misses his first few shots when he first enters the game, he's not coming back into the game in the 2nd half. Sounds familiar? That's how Brad utilizes Carsen Edwards although in a much lesser degree. I'd hate to see Payton end up in the same situation. He needs minutes to keep that confidence up. Semi is a little redundant with Grant out there. Just give those minutes to Payton. Steady minutes for a 40% 3 pt shooter won't hurt you.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#443 » by cloverleaf » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:55 am

For anyone wondering what happened to Pritchard:

“One hundred percent,” said Pritchard. “I’m not a first, second, third, fourth option on this team, so when I come in I have to find other ways to help the team win. Has to be through defense, through energy plays, and when you do get the ball it’s making plays quick, and being ready to spread the floor, so it’s very similar to freshman year.

“It’s about just being mature. The thing is, in these roles you have to find ways always to contribute — not get down if you don’t get the ball, not be down if you miss your first two shots. Just have to stay up and hope to help the team on the next play.”

https://www.bostonherald.com/2021/04/11/0407-bh-s-pritchard/

Sounds like a version of Stevens repeatedly stating that Rob's not gonna get any shots in the starting rotation. That is, Brad's so cowed by his prima donna ASs and vets that he's sacrificing the offense of his most efficient young players--and therefore a fair amount of their value.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#444 » by ParticleMan » Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:45 pm

This twisting of words to vilify Brad is getting beyond ridiculous.

Brad can only work with what he's given. Payton Pritchard is not Gary Payton, he never will be. He's a scrappy competitor who will hopefully carve out a nice role as a rotation piece. But he has physical limitations, struggles against a lot of matchups, and has taken to shooting 28 footers because the defense has now adjusted to guard him at the 3 line. Brad isn't "holding him back" from anything, it's part of his development to learn how to adjust and still contribute.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#445 » by bucknersrevenge » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:12 pm

ParticleMan wrote:This twisting of words to vilify Brad is getting beyond ridiculous.

Brad can only work with what he's given. Payton Pritchard is not Gary Payton, he never will be. He's a scrappy competitor who will hopefully carve out a nice role as a rotation piece. But he has physical limitations, struggles against a lot of matchups, and has taken to shooting 28 footers because the defense has now adjusted to guard him at the 3 line. Brad isn't "holding him back" from anything, it's part of his development to learn how to adjust and still contribute.


Yeah I took Payton's comments in the previous post to be a great sign of his maturity and this as direct opposition to the suggestion that he might be losing his confidence. He sounds like a very level-headed kid who understands that his time will in fact come. He's already shown his value to the team this season I think. In coming years he will continue to improve. I still feel like he could be our starting ballhandler in Year 4. No cap. But we're a ways off from that right now and that's okay. In the meantime, he's getting 15 mpg over his last 10 which is just shy of his season average. I imagine much of that is about Romeo getting healthy. When Fournier comes back, maybe less still. Payton is really a perfect fit for this team longterm though.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#446 » by Hal14 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:30 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:
Hal14 wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:
It'd be great if Madar translates that well in the NBA--and I think the first draft and stash that ever worked out for the C's. I don't think the strength difference is just age, but we'll see how Madar does once he faces real competition.

I think a good part of the strength difference is due to age.

If not, well, the guy many are comparing Madar to is Tony Parker. Parker was rail thin and he's likely gonna be a hall of famer. IMO the quickness/explosiveness/athleticism is more important than the strength.

As far as "real competition" the Israeli league is top 5 in Europe. It's considered far better competition than Pritchard faced in Oregon. Yes, it'll be interesting to see how both guys do in summer league/preseason/training camp next year....that's of course, if Madar can even get over here and out of his Israeli contract..


The age and the strength are exactly the reasons why Madar has zero shot at beating out Pritchard next year if he comes over. I don't care what Madar is doing over in the Israeli League. No way that Brad Stevens is going to trust Madar over Pritchard next season. Pritchard's strength which will help him defend in a switchy system and his experience and his shooting give him a SIGNIFICANT edge over Madar in reality and in terms of who Stevens will trust out there, especially on defense. With Madar's frame I already see him getting stuck like flypaper on picks in this NBA. They Jay's have known Pritchard for years even before this season. Don't you think for a second that that doesn't matter either. Maybe he doesn't come over for a 2-way but there's no way that he's more than an end of the bench guy in his first season and way behind Pritchard.

The bolded part here tells me everything I need to know. You don't care what Madar is doing over in the Israeli league. This says it all. It's like there's 2 sides to a story but you're only interesting in educating yourself on 1 of them. It's like someone's asking you your preference about Pepsi vs Coke, but you're only trying Pepsi and refusing to even learn about Coke. This bolded part tells me you have an agenda, you have your mind made up and there's no way to have a real insightful basketball discussion here.

So I'm probably wasting my breathe, but here goes:

1) You say Madar has a small frame and Pritchard is stronger. Ok sure, I'll give you that. Bulking up is probably the no. 1 thing Madar has to work on. But, even as he stands today, this is what he's doing on the court:



I know you "don't care what Madar is doing over in the Israeli League" but I suggest taking a look at the footage, it might be eye-opening for you.

:30 defending Deni Avdija a much bigger stronger player, standing 6'9, Avdija was the best player in Europe last year, top 10 draft pick in 2020, Madar hounds him on D, pressures the heck out of him, bodies him up a little bit, and forces the 10 second violation as Avdija tries bringing the ball up the court
:48 again, same thing, 2 plays and 2 turnovers Madar forces=, another 10 second violation. The best player in Europe can't even bring the ball up the court against Madar.
1:20 Avdija tries bringing the ball up again (after they tried having 2 other players bring the ball up and Madar forced both them to turn it over) and Madar steals it right from his hands
1:27 Madar guarding 1 guy who's much bigger/stronger than him, switches on a screen to the guy with the ball (also bigger/stronger than Madar), the bigger wing drives on Madar, he tries making a spin move into the paint. Madar knocks the ball away right out of his hands, steal and fast break the other way.
1:37 Madar's teammate loses his man out on the perimeter so Madar slides over to help, (now defending a slightly bigger/stronger guard) who tries to drive on Madar who completely shuts the drive down, and forces the guy with the ball into a wild pass which gets. picked off
1:45 a big man with the ball just inside the foul line has an open look at the rim, looks like an easy basket for the opposition but Madar helps, deflects the ball from behind as the big man tries shooting it which causes his shot to miss badly
1:49 Madar getting screened away from the ball by a big man who's jacked, dude looks like a more lean/cut version of Tristan Thompson who's setting the screen on Madar, he's definitely gonna get eaten alive here, right? Nope. He easily gets around the screen, recovers to close out on his man. Madar closes out strong, he's up on his man so his man tries to drive on him but can't, Madar is locking him down like a beast, forcing his man to pass it back up top but Madar deflects the pass which disrupts the opponent's offensive flow.
2:25 fights through a screen
2:30 switches on a screen
2:40 switches on screen to cover a big wing
3:05 opposing big drives the lane, Madar with the help side D swats the shot away. Madar times it perfectly and notice the big man is the one who falls to the floor. If Madar is so weak/fragile, wouldn't he be the one who falls down when he goes up to try and block a shot vs a guy much bigger than him?
3:15 shows very good leaping ability, and timing to block the shot, look how high his hand is if you pause it at 3:22
3:23 opposing big drives on the break, Madar swats the shot away
3:30 Blocks an opposing big man...again
4:50 caught on a switch, gets posted up by a much bigger player. Does he get abused in the post? Nope. He leaps up and deflects the post entry pass, deflecting it right to a teammate for a steal and fast break going the other way

You say that you think Madar will struggle switching on screens in the NBA. I don't know, from what I've seen on film, he doesn't seem to struggle with it. Keep in mind, Madar is playing against grown men in a professional league. He's going against big, strong dudes in their 20s and 30s and he's holding his own. Does he need to bulk up more? Yes, but guys like Steve Nash, Tony Parker, Steph Curry they had smaller frames to and they're all hall of famers (or soon will be). Not to mention the footage above is all from last season, 2019-2020....he has bulked up a little bit since then.

Shooting is definitely comparable. Madar shooting 38.3% from 3 this season. Pritchard shooting 40.8% so not far off at all. Pritchard in college was a career 37.9% shooter from 3, which is lower than Madar is shooting this year - while facing easier competition in the NCAA than Madar is facing in the Israeli Pro League. From 2 point range, Pritchard is shooting 50.4% this year, Madar is shooting 49.4% so Pritchard is barely higher while facing better competition. In college Pritchards shot 49.5% for his career which is pretty much equal to Madar this season despite facing easier competition than what Madar is facing now. They seem to be pretty comparable shooting wise. Keep in mind with Pritchard being 23 there is far less upside. Madar is younger with higher upside, only 20 years old and Madar improved his 3 point shot from last season to this season from 26% to 38% which is an insane jump - especially considering with all of the hype about Madar you know opposing teams are targeting him and game planning to try and stop him.

You say Pritchard has this big edge with experience. C'mon, he's played in 48 pro games. Do we really need to go down the line and list all of the rookies / first-year NBA players who took jobs from more experienced/older players? Are we really going to pretend like just because someone is older/more experienced they keep their job? lol

You play to win the game. Stevens wants to win. Brown and Tatum want to win. They all want the guys on the court who give them the best chance to win.

Both Madar and Pritchard had the exact same draft rating (a score of 90 according to nbadraft.net) last year. I'd say with the way Madar has improved this season he is slightly better but I'm saying you let them go head to head in summer league, training camp and preseason and see who's better and who helps the team more in short term and long term. I think it could go either way, but I'm saying Madar is probably the guy..

But to just flat out say that Madar has zero chance to beat out Pitchard for the backup PG job, say he's nothing more than an end of the bench guy and is "way behind Pritchard" you're basically refusing to look at the film of Madar - or you simply aren't able to comprehend the film you're watching.

Again, Madar is quicker, more athletic, more explosive, quicker off the dribble, quicker on defense, overall better defense especially defensive awareness, Madar is 2 inches taller, plus 3 years younger so more room to keep developing whereas Pritchard is pretty much as good as he's gonna be - especially considering he's only 6'1" and not as quick or athletic. Madar also a better passer/playmaker/floor general whereas Pritchard is really more of an undersized SG.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#447 » by bucknersrevenge » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:40 pm

Hal14 wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:
Hal14 wrote:I think a good part of the strength difference is due to age.

If not, well, the guy many are comparing Madar to is Tony Parker. Parker was rail thin and he's likely gonna be a hall of famer. IMO the quickness/explosiveness/athleticism is more important than the strength.

As far as "real competition" the Israeli league is top 5 in Europe. It's considered far better competition than Pritchard faced in Oregon. Yes, it'll be interesting to see how both guys do in summer league/preseason/training camp next year....that's of course, if Madar can even get over here and out of his Israeli contract..


The age and the strength are exactly the reasons why Madar has zero shot at beating out Pritchard next year if he comes over. I don't care what Madar is doing over in the Israeli League. No way that Brad Stevens is going to trust Madar over Pritchard next season. Pritchard's strength which will help him defend in a switchy system and his experience and his shooting give him a SIGNIFICANT edge over Madar in reality and in terms of who Stevens will trust out there, especially on defense. With Madar's frame I already see him getting stuck like flypaper on picks in this NBA. They Jay's have known Pritchard for years even before this season. Don't you think for a second that that doesn't matter either. Maybe he doesn't come over for a 2-way but there's no way that he's more than an end of the bench guy in his first season and way behind Pritchard.

The bolded part here tells me everything I need to know. You don't care what Madar is doing over in the Israeli league. This says it all. It's like there's 2 sides to a story but you're only interesting in educating yourself on 1 of them. It's like someone's asking you your preference about Pepsi vs Coke, but you're only trying Pepsi and refusing to even learn about Coke. This bolded part tells me you have an agenda, you have your mind made up and there's no way to have a real insightful basketball discussion here.

So I'm probably wasting my breathe, but here goes:

1) You say Madar has a small frame and Pritchard is stronger. Ok sure, I'll give you that. Bulking up is probably the no. 1 thing Madar has to work on. But, even as he stands today, this is what he's doing on the court:



I know you "don't care what Madar is doing over in the Israeli League" but I suggest taking a look at the footage, it might be eye-opening for you.

:30 defending Deni Avdija a much bigger stronger player, standing 6'9, Avdija was the best player in Europe last year, top 10 draft pick in 2020, Madar hounds him on D, pressures the heck out of him, bodies him up a little bit, and forces the 10 second violation as Avdija tries bringing the ball up the court
:48 again, same thing, 2 plays and 2 turnovers Madar forces=, another 10 second violation. The best player in Europe can't even bring the ball up the court against Madar.
1:20 Avdija tries bringing the ball up again (after they tried having 2 other players bring the ball up and Madar forced both them to turn it over) and Madar steals it right from his hands
1:27 Madar guarding 1 guy who's much bigger/stronger than him, switches on a screen to the guy with the ball (also bigger/stronger than Madar), the bigger wing drives on Madar, he tries making a spin move into the paint. Madar knocks the ball away right out of his hands, steal and fast break the other way.
1:37 Madar's teammate loses his man out on the perimeter so Madar slides over to help, (now defending a slightly bigger/stronger guard) who tries to drive on Madar who completely shuts the drive down, and forces the guy with the ball into a wild pass which gets. picked off
1:45 a big man with the ball just inside the foul line has an open look at the rim, looks like an easy basket for the opposition but Madar helps, deflects the ball from behind as the big man tries shooting it which causes his shot to miss badly
1:49 Madar getting screened away from the ball by a big man who's jacked, dude looks like a more lean/cut version of Tristan Thompson who's setting the screen on Madar, he's definitely gonna get eaten alive here, right? Nope. He easily gets around the screen, recovers to close out on his man. Madar closes out strong, he's up on his man so his man tries to drive on him but can't, Madar is locking him down like a beast, forcing his man to pass it back up top but Madar deflects the pass which disrupts the opponent's offensive flow.
2:25 fights through a screen
2:30 switches on a screen
2:40 switches on screen to cover a big wing
3:05 opposing big drives the lane, Madar with the help side D swats the shot away. Madar times it perfectly and notice the big man is the one who falls to the floor. If Madar is so weak/fragile, wouldn't he be the one who falls down when he goes up to try and block a shot vs a guy much bigger than him?
3:15 shows very good leaping ability, and timing to block the shot, look how high his hand is if you pause it at 3:22
3:23 opposing big drives on the break, Madar swats the shot away
3:30 Blocks an opposing big man...again
4:50 caught on a switch, gets posted up by a much bigger player. Does he get abused in the post? Nope. He leaps up and deflects the post entry pass, deflecting it right to a teammate for a steal and fast break going the other way

You say that you think Madar will struggle switching on screens in the NBA. I don't know, from what I've seen on film, he doesn't seem to struggle with it. Keep in mind, Madar is playing against grown men in a professional league. He's going against big, strong dudes in their 20s and 30s and he's holding his own. Does he need to bulk up more? Yes, but guys like Steve Nash, Tony Parker, Steph Curry they had smaller frames to and they're all hall of famers (or soon will be). Not to mention the footage above is all from last season, 2019-2020....he has bulked up a little bit since then.

Shooting is definitely comparable. Madar shooting 38.3% from 3 this season. Pritchard shooting 40.8% so not far off at all. Pritchard in college was a career 37.9% shooter from 3, which is lower than Madar is shooting this year - while facing easier competition in the NCAA than Madar is facing in the Israeli Pro League. From 2 point range, Pritchard is shooting 50.4% this year, Madar is shooting 49.4% so Pritchard is barely higher while facing better competition. In college Pritchards shot 49.5% for his career which is pretty much equal to Madar this season despite facing easier competition than what Madar is facing now. They seem to be pretty comparable shooting wise. Keep in mind with Pritchard being 23 there is far less upside. Madar is younger with higher upside, only 20 years old and Madar improved his 3 point shot from last season to this season from 26% to 38% which is an insane jump - especially considering with all of the hype about Madar you know opposing teams are targeting him and game planning to try and stop him.

You say Pritchard has this big edge with experience. C'mon, he's played in 48 pro games. Do we really need to go down the line and list all of the rookies / first-year NBA players who took jobs from more experienced/older players? Are we really going to pretend like just because someone is older/more experienced they keep their job? lol

You play to win the game. Stevens wants to win. Brown and Tatum want to win. They all want the guys on the court who give them the best chance to win.

Both Madar and Pritchard had the exact same draft rating (a score of 90 according to nbadraft.net) last year. I'd say with the way Madar has improved this season he is slightly better but I'm saying you let them go head to head in summer league, training camp and preseason and see who's better and who helps the team more in short term and long term. I think it could go either way, but I'm saying Madar is probably the guy..

But to just flat out say that Madar has zero chance to beat out Pitchard for the backup PG job, say he's nothing more than an end of the bench guy and is "way behind Pritchard" you're basically refusing to look at the film of Madar - or you simply aren't able to comprehend the film you're watching.

Again, Madar is quicker, more athletic, more explosive, quicker off the dribble, quicker on defense, overall better defense especially defensive awareness, Madar is 2 inches taller, plus 3 years younger so more room to keep developing whereas Pritchard is pretty much as good as he's gonna be - especially considering he's only 6'1" and not as quick or athletic. Madar also a better passer/playmaker/floor general whereas Pritchard is really more of an undersized SG.


If all you got from my post is the "I don't care about the Israeli League" then yeah, you are in fact, probably wasting your breath. FWIW, I kinda like Madar. I've been keeping an eye on him. And I like what I've seen so far. I definitely think there's potential there for real. I, like you, hope he comes over next year and gets a chance to play. And I can appreciate that you think Madar is the guy if they go head-to-head. Maybe in a few years after Madar gets settled, maybe it plays out that he's the better guy longterm. But that's definitely not gonna be next year.

Problem with a lot of your argument is that you think this is about head-to-head talent and potential evaluation which is what you're trying to force down people's throats and it doesn't work like that. They don't play a game of 1 on 1 and the winner gets the minutes. Certainly not with our coach. Brad looks for guys who fit his system at both ends. He looks for guys capable of playing off of the Jays. Guys who can move without the ball in space and hit shots and run the sets. They like guys with experience. And you may think it's nothing but 4 years in the PAC-10 where he finished leading that league in both scoring AND assists is no small feat. To your point, Pritch doesn't have Madar's suddenness on offense but he's incredibly crafty, smart and he uses his body and his strength very well to get where he wants to go and to finish thru contact. You're looking at athletic traits. I'm looking at production.

And for whatever reason, you keep glossing over the strength thing like it's nothing and I'm not sure why. Stevens employs a heavy switching defense and sometimes you wind up guarding a bigger guy. Pritchard has more strength than he does, and he will be able to withstand the pounding of an 82 game season next year better than Madar because of that strength and because of the experience of him already having done it and earning the trust of his teammates, the Jay's who he's known (and beaten) since high school. And again, if you don't think THAT matters, that trust the Jay's have in him, then you don't really understand how this works. If Brad thought the way you do Nesmith would play over Semi Ojeleye. You tout Madar's youth like it's an asset in this situation without even understanding how that fits within the makeup of the team. Madar's youth isn't a positive here, it's a negative. It's more the staff have to teach him about the nuances of the position. It's not just 48 games as you suggest. Of that footage you posted, Madar started only 6 of those just 21 games in '19-'20. I don't think you grasp how raw he really is. Meanwhile, Payton Pritchard has started 140 of 144 college games in one of the toughest conferences in the country

But please, feel free to compare Madar, the whatever, 98th pick in last year's draft to Hall of Famers and MVP's like Nash, Parker, Curry to make your point cuz yeah, that's logical. :crazy: On the plus side I did love the production value of the video. Big Eminem fan so you got me there.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#448 » by zoyathedestroya » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:57 am

Cs 14-5 when he plays at least 20 mins. Let him play. Limit Kemba to about 25 mpg as a sparkplug scorer. Not gonna happen though.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#449 » by Homerclease » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:12 am

He’s hit the rookie wall, he will be fine
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#450 » by BK_2020 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:03 pm

I'm ready for Yam Madar now. Can he get bought out of Israel?
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#451 » by Hal14 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:19 pm

BK_2020 wrote:I'm ready for Yam Madar now. Can he get bought out of Israel?

This is the latest I'm seeing:

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2021/02/09/nba-boston-celtics-madar-suing-team/
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#452 » by Hal14 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:36 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:
Hal14 wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:
The age and the strength are exactly the reasons why Madar has zero shot at beating out Pritchard next year if he comes over. I don't care what Madar is doing over in the Israeli League. No way that Brad Stevens is going to trust Madar over Pritchard next season. Pritchard's strength which will help him defend in a switchy system and his experience and his shooting give him a SIGNIFICANT edge over Madar in reality and in terms of who Stevens will trust out there, especially on defense. With Madar's frame I already see him getting stuck like flypaper on picks in this NBA. They Jay's have known Pritchard for years even before this season. Don't you think for a second that that doesn't matter either. Maybe he doesn't come over for a 2-way but there's no way that he's more than an end of the bench guy in his first season and way behind Pritchard.

The bolded part here tells me everything I need to know. You don't care what Madar is doing over in the Israeli league. This says it all. It's like there's 2 sides to a story but you're only interesting in educating yourself on 1 of them. It's like someone's asking you your preference about Pepsi vs Coke, but you're only trying Pepsi and refusing to even learn about Coke. This bolded part tells me you have an agenda, you have your mind made up and there's no way to have a real insightful basketball discussion here.

So I'm probably wasting my breathe, but here goes:

1) You say Madar has a small frame and Pritchard is stronger. Ok sure, I'll give you that. Bulking up is probably the no. 1 thing Madar has to work on. But, even as he stands today, this is what he's doing on the court:



I know you "don't care what Madar is doing over in the Israeli League" but I suggest taking a look at the footage, it might be eye-opening for you.

:30 defending Deni Avdija a much bigger stronger player, standing 6'9, Avdija was the best player in Europe last year, top 10 draft pick in 2020, Madar hounds him on D, pressures the heck out of him, bodies him up a little bit, and forces the 10 second violation as Avdija tries bringing the ball up the court
:48 again, same thing, 2 plays and 2 turnovers Madar forces=, another 10 second violation. The best player in Europe can't even bring the ball up the court against Madar.
1:20 Avdija tries bringing the ball up again (after they tried having 2 other players bring the ball up and Madar forced both them to turn it over) and Madar steals it right from his hands
1:27 Madar guarding 1 guy who's much bigger/stronger than him, switches on a screen to the guy with the ball (also bigger/stronger than Madar), the bigger wing drives on Madar, he tries making a spin move into the paint. Madar knocks the ball away right out of his hands, steal and fast break the other way.
1:37 Madar's teammate loses his man out on the perimeter so Madar slides over to help, (now defending a slightly bigger/stronger guard) who tries to drive on Madar who completely shuts the drive down, and forces the guy with the ball into a wild pass which gets. picked off
1:45 a big man with the ball just inside the foul line has an open look at the rim, looks like an easy basket for the opposition but Madar helps, deflects the ball from behind as the big man tries shooting it which causes his shot to miss badly
1:49 Madar getting screened away from the ball by a big man who's jacked, dude looks like a more lean/cut version of Tristan Thompson who's setting the screen on Madar, he's definitely gonna get eaten alive here, right? Nope. He easily gets around the screen, recovers to close out on his man. Madar closes out strong, he's up on his man so his man tries to drive on him but can't, Madar is locking him down like a beast, forcing his man to pass it back up top but Madar deflects the pass which disrupts the opponent's offensive flow.
2:25 fights through a screen
2:30 switches on a screen
2:40 switches on screen to cover a big wing
3:05 opposing big drives the lane, Madar with the help side D swats the shot away. Madar times it perfectly and notice the big man is the one who falls to the floor. If Madar is so weak/fragile, wouldn't he be the one who falls down when he goes up to try and block a shot vs a guy much bigger than him?
3:15 shows very good leaping ability, and timing to block the shot, look how high his hand is if you pause it at 3:22
3:23 opposing big drives on the break, Madar swats the shot away
3:30 Blocks an opposing big man...again
4:50 caught on a switch, gets posted up by a much bigger player. Does he get abused in the post? Nope. He leaps up and deflects the post entry pass, deflecting it right to a teammate for a steal and fast break going the other way

You say that you think Madar will struggle switching on screens in the NBA. I don't know, from what I've seen on film, he doesn't seem to struggle with it. Keep in mind, Madar is playing against grown men in a professional league. He's going against big, strong dudes in their 20s and 30s and he's holding his own. Does he need to bulk up more? Yes, but guys like Steve Nash, Tony Parker, Steph Curry they had smaller frames to and they're all hall of famers (or soon will be). Not to mention the footage above is all from last season, 2019-2020....he has bulked up a little bit since then.

Shooting is definitely comparable. Madar shooting 38.3% from 3 this season. Pritchard shooting 40.8% so not far off at all. Pritchard in college was a career 37.9% shooter from 3, which is lower than Madar is shooting this year - while facing easier competition in the NCAA than Madar is facing in the Israeli Pro League. From 2 point range, Pritchard is shooting 50.4% this year, Madar is shooting 49.4% so Pritchard is barely higher while facing better competition. In college Pritchards shot 49.5% for his career which is pretty much equal to Madar this season despite facing easier competition than what Madar is facing now. They seem to be pretty comparable shooting wise. Keep in mind with Pritchard being 23 there is far less upside. Madar is younger with higher upside, only 20 years old and Madar improved his 3 point shot from last season to this season from 26% to 38% which is an insane jump - especially considering with all of the hype about Madar you know opposing teams are targeting him and game planning to try and stop him.

You say Pritchard has this big edge with experience. C'mon, he's played in 48 pro games. Do we really need to go down the line and list all of the rookies / first-year NBA players who took jobs from more experienced/older players? Are we really going to pretend like just because someone is older/more experienced they keep their job? lol

You play to win the game. Stevens wants to win. Brown and Tatum want to win. They all want the guys on the court who give them the best chance to win.

Both Madar and Pritchard had the exact same draft rating (a score of 90 according to nbadraft.net) last year. I'd say with the way Madar has improved this season he is slightly better but I'm saying you let them go head to head in summer league, training camp and preseason and see who's better and who helps the team more in short term and long term. I think it could go either way, but I'm saying Madar is probably the guy..

But to just flat out say that Madar has zero chance to beat out Pitchard for the backup PG job, say he's nothing more than an end of the bench guy and is "way behind Pritchard" you're basically refusing to look at the film of Madar - or you simply aren't able to comprehend the film you're watching.

Again, Madar is quicker, more athletic, more explosive, quicker off the dribble, quicker on defense, overall better defense especially defensive awareness, Madar is 2 inches taller, plus 3 years younger so more room to keep developing whereas Pritchard is pretty much as good as he's gonna be - especially considering he's only 6'1" and not as quick or athletic. Madar also a better passer/playmaker/floor general whereas Pritchard is really more of an undersized SG.


If all you got from my post is the "I don't care about the Israeli League" then yeah, you are in fact, probably wasting your breath. FWIW, I kinda like Madar. I've been keeping an eye on him. And I like what I've seen so far. I definitely think there's potential there for real. I, like you, hope he comes over next year and gets a chance to play. And I can appreciate that you think Madar is the guy if they go head-to-head. Maybe in a few years after Madar gets settled, maybe it plays out that he's the better guy longterm. But that's definitely not gonna be next year.

Problem with a lot of your argument is that you think this is about head-to-head talent and potential evaluation which is what you're trying to force down people's throats and it doesn't work like that. They don't play a game of 1 on 1 and the winner gets the minutes. Certainly not with our coach. Brad looks for guys who fit his system at both ends. He looks for guys capable of playing off of the Jays. Guys who can move without the ball in space and hit shots and run the sets. They like guys with experience. And you may think it's nothing but 4 years in the PAC-10 where he finished leading that league in both scoring AND assists is no small feat. To your point, Pritch doesn't have Madar's suddenness on offense but he's incredibly crafty, smart and he uses his body and his strength very well to get where he wants to go and to finish thru contact. You're looking at athletic traits. I'm looking at production.

And for whatever reason, you keep glossing over the strength thing like it's nothing and I'm not sure why. Stevens employs a heavy switching defense and sometimes you wind up guarding a bigger guy. Pritchard has more strength than he does, and he will be able to withstand the pounding of an 82 game season next year better than Madar because of that strength and because of the experience of him already having done it and earning the trust of his teammates, the Jay's who he's known (and beaten) since high school. And again, if you don't think THAT matters, that trust the Jay's have in him, then you don't really understand how this works. If Brad thought the way you do Nesmith would play over Semi Ojeleye. You tout Madar's youth like it's an asset in this situation without even understanding how that fits within the makeup of the team. Madar's youth isn't a positive here, it's a negative. It's more the staff have to teach him about the nuances of the position. It's not just 48 games as you suggest. Of that footage you posted, Madar started only 6 of those just 21 games in '19-'20. I don't think you grasp how raw he really is. Meanwhile, Payton Pritchard has started 140 of 144 college games in one of the toughest conferences in the country

But please, feel free to compare Madar, the whatever, 98th pick in last year's draft to Hall of Famers and MVP's like Nash, Parker, Curry to make your point cuz yeah, that's logical. :crazy: On the plus side I did love the production value of the video. Big Eminem fan so you got me there.

1) The use of hyperbole in the bolded part makes your argument look weak, it shows bias and that you're just trying to push an agenda. Madar was not the 98th pick in the draft so that's false. There isn't even that many picks in the draft. He was the 47th pick.. 10 spots higher than future hall of famer Manu Ginobili who was the 57th pick in 1999.

Again, Pritchard and Madar both had a 90 rating according to NBA Draft Net, who had Pritchard slated as an early to mid 2nd round pick. So the 2 of them were considered very comparable at the time of last year's draft so not sure why you are completely dismissing Madar because of where he got drafted.

Tons of people are comparing Madar to Tony Parker. Madar in terms of size, build, quickness, athleticism and skill set is very similar to Parker was at age 20, except with much better defense and more range on his shot. Parker didn't have a particularly strong frame, but that didn't hold him back. Parker had 2 veteran point guards on his team (Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels) but that didn't hold him back either - he got the minutes and was the starter as a rookie because he was better and gave the team a better chance to win, both in the short term and long term.

2) I don't know why you think I "keep glossing over the strength thing like it's nothing"...I just addressed it above with the Tony Parker comparison. In my last comment I addressed it at length by breaking down the footage of Madar's defensive highlights and breaking down all of the plays where he has to switch on defense. Tell me, do you see any plays in that video where his lack of strength holds him back? Did you see any plays where he struggled when switching on D? You keep saying you think he will struggle in a switching defense. The footage tells us a different story.

Also if you look at his picture here, it does look like he's bulked up a little bit recently:
https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2021/04/12/nba-boston-celtics-madar-4-12-21/

3) You keep pointing out Pritchard's strength advantage and while you did acknowledge Madar's quickness advantage, I'd argue that when you look at how good each would be defensively in the Celtics switching system, overall I'd give the edge to Madar. Why? IMO Madar's quickness advantage negates Pritchard's strength advantage. While Pritchard's strength might help him to body up bigger/stronger offensive players, at the same time probably the biggest challenge when playing defense in the modern NBA is the spacing, the way teams spread the floor, move the ball, find the open man for 3's. How many times have we seen this season the Celtics slow to rotate or slow to close out on shooters? Time and time again, we give up open 3's. Defenders in the modern game have to cover more ground than ever before - and shooters are better than ever before. You need to be quick on D. Does the data back this up? Yup. According to basketball reference, Boston ranks 17th out of 30 teams in opponents 3 point % and 18th out of 30 teams in opponent's shooting % when shooting between 16 feet away to just inside the 3 point line. A.k.a. these 2 stats show your perimeter defense. Since Madar has a quickness advantage over Pritchard, he would be quicker to rotate and quicker to close out on shooters, which in turn would give opponents less open looks and we could move up in those perimeter defense stats. Why do you think the Celtics rank so low in those perimeter defense categories? IMO the 2 biggest reasons are Kemba and Pritchard. We have 2 undersized guards getting lots of minutes. Not only are both Kemba and Pritchard slow on defense, slow to rotate, slow to switch, slow to close out on shooters but they're both undersized at 6'0" and 6'1" which means it's easy for opponents to shoot over the top of them. Madar meanwhile is not only quicker on D, but he's 2 inches taller at 6'3" so quicker to rotate, quicker to get out on shooters and taller so opponents can't shoot over the top of him as easily, as evidenced by the play at the 3:15 mark of the video here where he blocks a 3 point attempt:



So Madar has the quickness advantage and Pritchard has a strength advantage. The other edge Madar has on D is the tenacity, he's a bulldog out there, the steals, the deflections, the way he wears down opposing point guards by picking them up full court. In the video I posted before with his defensive highlights, there's literally 3 plays where the opposing guard turns the ball over when trying to bring the ball up the court against Madar. The opposing guard wasn't just some random scrub, it was Deni Avdija, the best player in Europe last year and a top 10 draft pick in 2020. Madar could literally add another dimension to this Celtics team with that pressure defense and forcing of turnovers. This would be huge, since Boston only ranks 15th out of 30 teams in forcing turnovers.

4) Ugh, this experience nonsense. I honestly don't know what else to say here. We're talking in circles here. You seem to think that Stevens, Tatum and Brown will trust Pritchard more because he started in college for 4 years and they have maybe known him since high school. I already replied to that saying they don't care about that BS. They want to win games. Again, Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels both had much more experience than Tony Parker, but Parker started and got the minutes because he was better. And Parker came into the NBA when he was 19. If Madar joins the Celtics next season he'll be 21.

That's nice that Ojeleye is getting more mins than Nesmith but:
a) Ojeleye is simply a better defender right now so he is getting more minutes. IMO Madar would be the better defender than Pritchard on this team if he comes over next season..already discussed this at length above.
b) Nesmith has often looked confused/lost/tentative which is the other reason Ojeleye has gotten more minutes. Maybe Madar will do the same, maybe he won't. We won't know for sure until he actually comes over here and starts playing with the team in summer league/training camp/preseason. What we do know is there have been times when Pritchard has looked tentative, like the other night (I forget which game) but he missed a 3, then 1 or 2 possessions later he had the ball like 4 feet behind the 3 point line and looked confused/tentative, didn't know what to do with the ball so he launched a shot from 4 or 5 feet behind the 3 point line. Shot was no good and possession quickly went back to the other team.
c) I'm sure if Nesmith he wasn't looking so tentative out there and was playing better defense, he'd see more mins.
d) Teague has much more experience in the NBA than Pritchard, but Pritchard got more minutes.
e) Langford played more than Ojeleye the other night vs the Nuggets, but Ojeleye has more NBA experience so there goes your experience theory out the window, lol
BK_2020
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#453 » by BK_2020 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:39 pm

Hal14 wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:I'm ready for Yam Madar now. Can he get bought out of Israel?

This is the latest I'm seeing:

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2021/02/09/nba-boston-celtics-madar-suing-team/

I have no idea how they are writing these contracts that there can be any ambiguities about something this big.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#454 » by bucknersrevenge » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:40 pm

Hal14 wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:
Hal14 wrote:The bolded part here tells me everything I need to know. You don't care what Madar is doing over in the Israeli league. This says it all. It's like there's 2 sides to a story but you're only interesting in educating yourself on 1 of them. It's like someone's asking you your preference about Pepsi vs Coke, but you're only trying Pepsi and refusing to even learn about Coke. This bolded part tells me you have an agenda, you have your mind made up and there's no way to have a real insightful basketball discussion here.

So I'm probably wasting my breathe, but here goes:

1) You say Madar has a small frame and Pritchard is stronger. Ok sure, I'll give you that. Bulking up is probably the no. 1 thing Madar has to work on. But, even as he stands today, this is what he's doing on the court:



I know you "don't care what Madar is doing over in the Israeli League" but I suggest taking a look at the footage, it might be eye-opening for you.

:30 defending Deni Avdija a much bigger stronger player, standing 6'9, Avdija was the best player in Europe last year, top 10 draft pick in 2020, Madar hounds him on D, pressures the heck out of him, bodies him up a little bit, and forces the 10 second violation as Avdija tries bringing the ball up the court
:48 again, same thing, 2 plays and 2 turnovers Madar forces=, another 10 second violation. The best player in Europe can't even bring the ball up the court against Madar.
1:20 Avdija tries bringing the ball up again (after they tried having 2 other players bring the ball up and Madar forced both them to turn it over) and Madar steals it right from his hands
1:27 Madar guarding 1 guy who's much bigger/stronger than him, switches on a screen to the guy with the ball (also bigger/stronger than Madar), the bigger wing drives on Madar, he tries making a spin move into the paint. Madar knocks the ball away right out of his hands, steal and fast break the other way.
1:37 Madar's teammate loses his man out on the perimeter so Madar slides over to help, (now defending a slightly bigger/stronger guard) who tries to drive on Madar who completely shuts the drive down, and forces the guy with the ball into a wild pass which gets. picked off
1:45 a big man with the ball just inside the foul line has an open look at the rim, looks like an easy basket for the opposition but Madar helps, deflects the ball from behind as the big man tries shooting it which causes his shot to miss badly
1:49 Madar getting screened away from the ball by a big man who's jacked, dude looks like a more lean/cut version of Tristan Thompson who's setting the screen on Madar, he's definitely gonna get eaten alive here, right? Nope. He easily gets around the screen, recovers to close out on his man. Madar closes out strong, he's up on his man so his man tries to drive on him but can't, Madar is locking him down like a beast, forcing his man to pass it back up top but Madar deflects the pass which disrupts the opponent's offensive flow.
2:25 fights through a screen
2:30 switches on a screen
2:40 switches on screen to cover a big wing
3:05 opposing big drives the lane, Madar with the help side D swats the shot away. Madar times it perfectly and notice the big man is the one who falls to the floor. If Madar is so weak/fragile, wouldn't he be the one who falls down when he goes up to try and block a shot vs a guy much bigger than him?
3:15 shows very good leaping ability, and timing to block the shot, look how high his hand is if you pause it at 3:22
3:23 opposing big drives on the break, Madar swats the shot away
3:30 Blocks an opposing big man...again
4:50 caught on a switch, gets posted up by a much bigger player. Does he get abused in the post? Nope. He leaps up and deflects the post entry pass, deflecting it right to a teammate for a steal and fast break going the other way

You say that you think Madar will struggle switching on screens in the NBA. I don't know, from what I've seen on film, he doesn't seem to struggle with it. Keep in mind, Madar is playing against grown men in a professional league. He's going against big, strong dudes in their 20s and 30s and he's holding his own. Does he need to bulk up more? Yes, but guys like Steve Nash, Tony Parker, Steph Curry they had smaller frames to and they're all hall of famers (or soon will be). Not to mention the footage above is all from last season, 2019-2020....he has bulked up a little bit since then.

Shooting is definitely comparable. Madar shooting 38.3% from 3 this season. Pritchard shooting 40.8% so not far off at all. Pritchard in college was a career 37.9% shooter from 3, which is lower than Madar is shooting this year - while facing easier competition in the NCAA than Madar is facing in the Israeli Pro League. From 2 point range, Pritchard is shooting 50.4% this year, Madar is shooting 49.4% so Pritchard is barely higher while facing better competition. In college Pritchards shot 49.5% for his career which is pretty much equal to Madar this season despite facing easier competition than what Madar is facing now. They seem to be pretty comparable shooting wise. Keep in mind with Pritchard being 23 there is far less upside. Madar is younger with higher upside, only 20 years old and Madar improved his 3 point shot from last season to this season from 26% to 38% which is an insane jump - especially considering with all of the hype about Madar you know opposing teams are targeting him and game planning to try and stop him.

You say Pritchard has this big edge with experience. C'mon, he's played in 48 pro games. Do we really need to go down the line and list all of the rookies / first-year NBA players who took jobs from more experienced/older players? Are we really going to pretend like just because someone is older/more experienced they keep their job? lol

You play to win the game. Stevens wants to win. Brown and Tatum want to win. They all want the guys on the court who give them the best chance to win.

Both Madar and Pritchard had the exact same draft rating (a score of 90 according to nbadraft.net) last year. I'd say with the way Madar has improved this season he is slightly better but I'm saying you let them go head to head in summer league, training camp and preseason and see who's better and who helps the team more in short term and long term. I think it could go either way, but I'm saying Madar is probably the guy..

But to just flat out say that Madar has zero chance to beat out Pitchard for the backup PG job, say he's nothing more than an end of the bench guy and is "way behind Pritchard" you're basically refusing to look at the film of Madar - or you simply aren't able to comprehend the film you're watching.

Again, Madar is quicker, more athletic, more explosive, quicker off the dribble, quicker on defense, overall better defense especially defensive awareness, Madar is 2 inches taller, plus 3 years younger so more room to keep developing whereas Pritchard is pretty much as good as he's gonna be - especially considering he's only 6'1" and not as quick or athletic. Madar also a better passer/playmaker/floor general whereas Pritchard is really more of an undersized SG.


If all you got from my post is the "I don't care about the Israeli League" then yeah, you are in fact, probably wasting your breath. FWIW, I kinda like Madar. I've been keeping an eye on him. And I like what I've seen so far. I definitely think there's potential there for real. I, like you, hope he comes over next year and gets a chance to play. And I can appreciate that you think Madar is the guy if they go head-to-head. Maybe in a few years after Madar gets settled, maybe it plays out that he's the better guy longterm. But that's definitely not gonna be next year.

Problem with a lot of your argument is that you think this is about head-to-head talent and potential evaluation which is what you're trying to force down people's throats and it doesn't work like that. They don't play a game of 1 on 1 and the winner gets the minutes. Certainly not with our coach. Brad looks for guys who fit his system at both ends. He looks for guys capable of playing off of the Jays. Guys who can move without the ball in space and hit shots and run the sets. They like guys with experience. And you may think it's nothing but 4 years in the PAC-10 where he finished leading that league in both scoring AND assists is no small feat. To your point, Pritch doesn't have Madar's suddenness on offense but he's incredibly crafty, smart and he uses his body and his strength very well to get where he wants to go and to finish thru contact. You're looking at athletic traits. I'm looking at production.

And for whatever reason, you keep glossing over the strength thing like it's nothing and I'm not sure why. Stevens employs a heavy switching defense and sometimes you wind up guarding a bigger guy. Pritchard has more strength than he does, and he will be able to withstand the pounding of an 82 game season next year better than Madar because of that strength and because of the experience of him already having done it and earning the trust of his teammates, the Jay's who he's known (and beaten) since high school. And again, if you don't think THAT matters, that trust the Jay's have in him, then you don't really understand how this works. If Brad thought the way you do Nesmith would play over Semi Ojeleye. You tout Madar's youth like it's an asset in this situation without even understanding how that fits within the makeup of the team. Madar's youth isn't a positive here, it's a negative. It's more the staff have to teach him about the nuances of the position. It's not just 48 games as you suggest. Of that footage you posted, Madar started only 6 of those just 21 games in '19-'20. I don't think you grasp how raw he really is. Meanwhile, Payton Pritchard has started 140 of 144 college games in one of the toughest conferences in the country

But please, feel free to compare Madar, the whatever, 98th pick in last year's draft to Hall of Famers and MVP's like Nash, Parker, Curry to make your point cuz yeah, that's logical. :crazy: On the plus side I did love the production value of the video. Big Eminem fan so you got me there.

1) The use of hyperbole in the bolded part makes your argument look weak, it shows bias and that you're just trying to push an agenda. Madar was not the 98th pick in the draft so that's false. There isn't even that many picks in the draft. He was the 47th pick.. 10 spots higher than future hall of famer Manu Ginobili who was the 57th pick in 1999.

Again, Pritchard and Madar both had a 90 rating according to NBA Draft Net, who had Pritchard slated as an early to mid 2nd round pick. So the 2 of them were considered very comparable at the time of last year's draft so not sure why you are completely dismissing Madar because of where he got drafted.

Tons of people are comparing Madar to Tony Parker. Madar in terms of size, build, quickness, athleticism and skill set is very similar to Parker was at age 20, except with much better defense and more range on his shot. Parker didn't have a particularly strong frame, but that didn't hold him back. Parker had 2 veteran point guards on his team (Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels) but that didn't hold him back either - he got the minutes and was the starter as a rookie because he was better and gave the team a better chance to win, both in the short term and long term.

2) I don't know why you think I "keep glossing over the strength thing like it's nothing"...I just addressed it above with the Tony Parker comparison. In my last comment I addressed it at length by breaking down the footage of Madar's defensive highlights and breaking down all of the plays where he has to switch on defense. Tell me, do you see any plays in that video where his lack of strength holds him back? Did you see any plays where he struggled when switching on D? You keep saying you think he will struggle in a switching defense. The footage tells us a different story.

Also if you look at his picture here, it does look like he's bulked up a little bit recently:
https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2021/04/12/nba-boston-celtics-madar-4-12-21/

3) You keep pointing out Pritchard's strength advantage and while you did acknowledge Madar's quickness advantage, I'd argue that when you look at how good each would be defensively in the Celtics switching system, overall I'd give the edge to Madar. Why? IMO Madar's quickness advantage negates Pritchard's strength advantage. While Pritchard's strength might help him to body up bigger/stronger offensive players, at the same time probably the biggest challenge when playing defense in the modern NBA is the spacing, the way teams spread the floor, move the ball, find the open man for 3's. How many times have we seen this season the Celtics slow to rotate or slow to close out on shooters? Time and time again, we give up open 3's. Defenders in the modern game have to cover more ground than ever before - and shooters are better than ever before. You need to be quick on D. Does the data back this up? Yup. According to basketball reference, Boston ranks 17th out of 30 teams in opponents 3 point % and 18th out of 30 teams in opponent's shooting % when shooting between 16 feet away to just inside the 3 point line. A.k.a. these 2 stats show your perimeter defense. Since Madar has a quickness advantage over Pritchard, he would be quicker to rotate and quicker to close out on shooters, which in turn would give opponents less open looks and we could move up in those perimeter defense stats. Why do you think the Celtics rank so low in those perimeter defense categories? IMO the 2 biggest reasons are Kemba and Pritchard. We have 2 undersized guards getting lots of minutes. Not only are both Kemba and Pritchard slow on defense, slow to rotate, slow to switch, slow to close out on shooters but they're both undersized at 6'0" and 6'1" which means it's easy for opponents to shoot over the top of them. Madar meanwhile is not only quicker on D, but he's 2 inches taller at 6'3" so quicker to rotate, quicker to get out on shooters and taller so opponents can't shoot over the top of him as easily, as evidenced by the play at the 3:15 mark of the video here where he blocks a 3 point attempt:



So Madar has the quickness advantage and Pritchard has a strength advantage. The other edge Madar has on D is the tenacity, he's a bulldog out there, the steals, the deflections, the way he wears down opposing point guards by picking them up full court. In the video I posted before with his defensive highlights, there's literally 3 plays where the opposing guard turns the ball over when trying to bring the ball up the court against Madar. The opposing guard wasn't just some random scrub, it was Deni Avdija, the best player in Europe last year and a top 10 draft pick in 2020. Madar could literally add another dimension to this Celtics team with that pressure defense and forcing of turnovers. This would be huge, since Boston only ranks 15th out of 30 teams in forcing turnovers.

4) Ugh, this experience nonsense. I honestly don't know what else to say here. We're talking in circles here. You seem to think that Stevens, Tatum and Brown will trust Pritchard more because he started in college for 4 years and they have maybe known him since high school. I already replied to that saying they don't care about that BS. They want to win games. Again, Terry Porter and Antonio Daniels both had much more experience than Tony Parker, but Parker started and got the minutes because he was better. And Parker came into the NBA when he was 19. If Madar joins the Celtics next season he'll be 21.

That's nice that Ojeleye is getting more mins than Nesmith but:
a) Ojeleye is simply a better defender right now so he is getting more minutes. IMO Madar would be the better defender than Pritchard on this team if he comes over next season..already discussed this at length above.
b) Nesmith has often looked confused/lost/tentative which is the other reason Ojeleye has gotten more minutes. Maybe Madar will do the same, maybe he won't. We won't know for sure until he actually comes over here and starts playing with the team in summer league/training camp/preseason. What we do know is there have been times when Pritchard has looked tentative, like the other night (I forget which game) but he missed a 3, then 1 or 2 possessions later he had the ball like 4 feet behind the 3 point line and looked confused/tentative, didn't know what to do with the ball so he launched a shot from 4 or 5 feet behind the 3 point line. Shot was no good and possession quickly went back to the other team.
c) I'm sure if Nesmith he wasn't looking so tentative out there and was playing better defense, he'd see more mins.
d) Teague has much more experience in the NBA than Pritchard, but Pritchard got more minutes.
e) Langford played more than Ojeleye the other night vs the Nuggets, but Ojeleye has more NBA experience so there goes your experience theory out the window, lol


I appreciate your passion Hal so I'm probably gonna bow out after this one and as you said earlier "time will tell". I'm passionate about Tacko Fall myself; probably to a fault but it is what it is. The "98th pick" thing was OBVIOUSLY a joke. That you would respond by pointing out that there aren't 98 picks tells me that it flew right over your head. I know when Madar was picked.

Again, I'm not dismissing Madar. I in fact, said that I think he shows a ton of promise and that I would like to see him next year and think that he can possibly be a nice piece for the future. Not sure how ANY of that is dismissive. But a little reality and context is important here. 2nd round picks are usually longshots in a league with only 450 players. International guards, even moreso. That's the history of this league. And you seem to be basing a ton of your belief in Madar in a procured 5 minute YouTube clip. I mean this appears to be the basis of your argument; 5 minutes of compiled "best plays". C'mon man, don't do that. Don't extrapolate 5 minutes into his entire career so far and tell me that's definitely who he is. You don't know that. For all we know, he's got a bunch of bad tape that no one has put together too. That clip shows potential. Why can't that be enough? You're using the name of Deni Avdija, the best player in Europe as proof of pedigree. Have you seen the stats of that "best player in Europe" this season since he came over...on Washington?? If the best player in Europe has come over here and is putting up 6ppgon 23 min in his first season in the NBA, what does that tell you?? Just as a reminder, Avdija was not picked 98th in last year's draft, nor 47th for that matter. And if memory serves, neither Curry, Nash, or Parker, these Hall of Famers you love to compare him to. I gotta admit, that takes stones. I would've aimed low like TJ McConnell, or Ish Smith or DJ Augustin or something like that. But you: "I think a Finals MVP, 2-time league MVP, and the greatest shooter who ever lived are appropriate comparisons, sure, why not?"

You get all indignant when I said "I don't care about the Israeli league" in regard to Madar, but when I speak about the importance of "earned trust" in your teammates, you can't wait to dismiss that out of hand because that point doesn't suit you. These are human beings. Every season is war. And going through war and building trust with guys who have come through for you, and that you've known and seen their capabilities over the years is not something you can just knock because the point is inconvenient. You're right, that players will choose the guys that they think will best help them win. I bet you 10 times out of 10 they choose Pritchard over a relative unknown every time. A guy who has started 140 games going into this season versus a guy who has started 6 before this year.

Look I know I'm not gonna change your mind and that fine. I'm glad that you're riding for Madar. BTW, I couldn't see the picture in that link. Wouldn't come up for me. Madar is gonna be a raw 2nd round pick project when he comes over that has some athletic traits and some skills but will need to bulk up a bit and learn the NBA game as it is different, and the talent level is different. As a 20 year old kid in general, he has a lot to learn about playing the position in general. That's just how it is. But I'm not down on him. I'm not dismissing him. I'm rooting for him.
I am the RealGM President of the Tacko Fall fan club. Playa-hater, 31to6, thank you for having my back fam. I still say we haven't seen the last of Tacko.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#455 » by poopship » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:31 pm

Deni Avdija, the best player in europe last year? Nobody other than this realgm person who wants to pump Yam Madars tires would say anything like that.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#456 » by BK_2020 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:32 pm

He wasn't the best player in Europe but he was the first Euro-import to be drafted in last year's draft (unless you count Lamelo's time in Lithuania).
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#457 » by bucknersrevenge » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:51 pm

BK_2020 wrote:He wasn't the best player in Europe but he was the first Euro-import to be drafted in last year's draft (unless you count Lamelo's time in Lithuania).


True. And that in and of itself is much ado of what exactly? That's y whole point in this whole deal. Hal pointing out 2 or 3 clips where Madar maybe got the better of "the first Euo-import to be drafted in last year's draft" is not proof of anything. I can pull countless videos of random guys dunking on or crossing up Lebron on a given possession. Doesn't make them better. Regardless, this thread is supposed to be about Pritchard and I think I've been complicit enough in letting it get hijacked to debate this asinine comparison.

I for one really like Pritchard. I think he has a long career ahead of him and I hope it's with us. I think he's a worker but we haven't really had the chance to see it this year. He hasn't really had the chance yet to get in the weight room like I think he will soon as his body matures. He's got a frame that will allow him to put a lot of muscle on it as he develops his overall game.
I am the RealGM President of the Tacko Fall fan club. Playa-hater, 31to6, thank you for having my back fam. I still say we haven't seen the last of Tacko.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#458 » by BK_2020 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:55 pm

Pritchard is 23 and spent 4 years playing in college where you are forbidden to practice more than like 20 hours a week. He majored in "General Social Science" which I cannot imagine is a very demanding course of studies. What exactly has prevented him from hitting the weight room and bulking up that frame of his?
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#459 » by bucknersrevenge » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:05 pm

BK_2020 wrote:Pritchard is 23 and spent 4 years playing in college where you are forbidden to practice more than like 20 hours a week. He majored in "General Social Science" which I cannot imagine is a very demanding course of studies. What exactly has prevented him from hitting the weight room and bulking up that frame of his?


Oh I have no doubt that if you look at photos of him as a freshman compared to photos of him now, you'd see a visible difference. That said, I think you and I both know that there's a big difference between a college workout regimen and an NBA one. Plus, again as his body matures, we'll see even more difference.
I am the RealGM President of the Tacko Fall fan club. Playa-hater, 31to6, thank you for having my back fam. I still say we haven't seen the last of Tacko.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Payton Pritchard! 

Post#460 » by zoyathedestroya » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:11 pm

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