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CBA/Roster/Trade Rules Discussion

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Re: CBA minutiae 

Post#21 » by djFan71 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:55 am

sully00 wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:So the FAQ is back up. I thought otherwise and didn't check. Thanks!

So repeater is based on you having been in the luxury tax 3 of the past 4 seasons. Uh ... I've forgotten which recent years the Cs were or weren't in the luxury tax.

Bleeding Green wrote:Yeah the repeater tax is insane in the NBA. You can read about it here: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q18

If you expect the Celtics to be competitive for the next 5+ seasons and for Tatum to be maxed, Smart re-signed, one of the young players re-signed to a 20mm+ contract, Hayward traded for future salary considerations, etc, it's not hard to, in a few years be staring down at 100+ million in tax for a given year. The Warriors are paying 64 mil in tax this year and they sucked ass last year, will probably be middling this year. Crazy how fast things change. And they have a trade exception from the Iguodala trade, that if they use fully, their tax bill would be like 135 million.

It's not my money, but if the Celtics aren't competing for titles every single year, I wouldn't expect the owners to be OK with chucking 100 million down the drain so their team can lose in the ECF every year. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm no expert.


Boston paid 3.8 mil in lux tax in '18-'19 otherwise they have been under.

And will almost assuredly in '21-22 with Tatum's max. So, it would be really nice to not do it '20-21 to break up the 3 of past 4 seasons run.
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Re: CBA minutiae 

Post#22 » by sully00 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:08 am

Fencer reregistered wrote:Also from the FAQ, pertaining to Tacko and Tremont:

the qualifying offer is a Two-Way contract, with $50,000 guaranteed


So it is NOT a lock that the Cs are planning to bring Tacko onto the roster of 15.

Waters either, except that he's the G-League RoTY and will probably look like a roster lock if the Cs indeed let Wanamaker walk.


I would think not. They didn't even really plan on having Tacko as a two way player last year the intent was just to have him be in the G league but I think the popularity and some decent showing lead them to two way contract. They use him in community relations a ton. I would expect he is on another two way or gone if he thinks he can get an NBA deal.

With Waters he might be smarter to take the two way deal and try and play his way onto the 15 man over the season. The roster is just going to be tight the 16th guy gets cut the two way guy probably hangs on. Boston is at 14 with the rookies and Hayward off the roster as a FA. Javonte Green is not guaranteed and while there is some flexibility with Semi he shot 38% from and was getting mins in the playoffs. You have to think even beyond the Hayward situation they are going to want to add a veteran.
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Re: CBA minutiae 

Post#23 » by Fencer reregistered » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:26 am

djFan71 wrote:
sully00 wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:So the FAQ is back up. I thought otherwise and didn't check. Thanks!

So repeater is based on you having been in the luxury tax 3 of the past 4 seasons. Uh ... I've forgotten which recent years the Cs were or weren't in the luxury tax.



Boston paid 3.8 mil in lux tax in '18-'19 otherwise they have been under.

And will almost assuredly in '21-22 with Tatum's max. So, it would be really nice to not do it '20-21 to break up the 3 of past 4 seasons run.


Sounds like missing the luxury tax this upcoming year would delay repeater status by two seasons.
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Re: CBA minutiae 

Post#24 » by sully00 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:37 am

Fencer reregistered wrote:
djFan71 wrote:
sully00 wrote:
Boston paid 3.8 mil in lux tax in '18-'19 otherwise they have been under.

And will almost assuredly in '21-22 with Tatum's max. So, it would be really nice to not do it '20-21 to break up the 3 of past 4 seasons run.


Sounds like missing the luxury tax this upcoming year would delay repeater status by two seasons.


Would seem important but at the same time they have actually pocketed a lot of money they expected to be on the hook for with Horford and now Hayward option out. The way I understand the way the run the C's is nobody is taking money out of the franchise. Investors make money on the appreciation of the value of their share of the franchise. So when the money remains available for Ainge to play with so the good basketball decision will override the good financial decision. The fact that Ainge has not blown that is why he will have this job until he doesn't want it anymore. No coaches that have to paid off, no ugly contracts that need to be waived. If they can win a title by paying the tax then they will do it. If they are only going to tread water and pay the tax then screw that.

But all of that is with a grain of salt as Covid reeks havoc with the finances of the NBA.
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Re: CBA minutiae 

Post#25 » by djFan71 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:46 am

sully00 wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
djFan71 wrote:And will almost assuredly in '21-22 with Tatum's max. So, it would be really nice to not do it '20-21 to break up the 3 of past 4 seasons run.


Sounds like missing the luxury tax this upcoming year would delay repeater status by two seasons.


Would seem important but at the same time they have actually pocketed a lot of money they expected to be on the hook for with Horford and now Hayward option out. The way I understand the way the run the C's is nobody is taking money out of the franchise. Investors make money on the appreciation of the value of their share of the franchise. So when the money remains available for Ainge to play with so the good basketball decision will override the good financial decision. The fact that Ainge has not blown that is why he will have this job until he doesn't want it anymore. No coaches that have to paid off, no ugly contracts that need to be waived. If they can win a title by paying the tax then they will do it. If they are only going to tread water and pay the tax then screw that.

But all of that is with a grain of salt as Covid reeks havoc with the finances of the NBA.

If we are true title contenders, pay the tax. But, if not, it just makes sense to duck it.
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Re: CBA minutiae 

Post#26 » by sully00 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:50 am

djFan71 wrote:
sully00 wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
Sounds like missing the luxury tax this upcoming year would delay repeater status by two seasons.


Would seem important but at the same time they have actually pocketed a lot of money they expected to be on the hook for with Horford and now Hayward option out. The way I understand the way the run the C's is nobody is taking money out of the franchise. Investors make money on the appreciation of the value of their share of the franchise. So when the money remains available for Ainge to play with so the good basketball decision will override the good financial decision. The fact that Ainge has not blown that is why he will have this job until he doesn't want it anymore. No coaches that have to paid off, no ugly contracts that need to be waived. If they can win a title by paying the tax then they will do it. If they are only going to tread water and pay the tax then screw that.

But all of that is with a grain of salt as Covid reeks havoc with the finances of the NBA.

If we are true title contenders, pay the tax. But, if not, it just makes sense to duck it.


Based on that rule then you pay Gordon Hayward what it takes you made it to game 6 of the conference finals and you were favored.
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Re: CBA minutiae 

Post#27 » by djFan71 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:53 am

sully00 wrote:
djFan71 wrote:
sully00 wrote:
Would seem important but at the same time they have actually pocketed a lot of money they expected to be on the hook for with Horford and now Hayward option out. The way I understand the way the run the C's is nobody is taking money out of the franchise. Investors make money on the appreciation of the value of their share of the franchise. So when the money remains available for Ainge to play with so the good basketball decision will override the good financial decision. The fact that Ainge has not blown that is why he will have this job until he doesn't want it anymore. No coaches that have to paid off, no ugly contracts that need to be waived. If they can win a title by paying the tax then they will do it. If they are only going to tread water and pay the tax then screw that.

But all of that is with a grain of salt as Covid reeks havoc with the finances of the NBA.

If we are true title contenders, pay the tax. But, if not, it just makes sense to duck it.


Based on that rule then you pay Gordon Hayward what it takes you made it to game 6 of the conference finals and you were favored.

I think that’s the plan unless he wants IND more and they can reach a deal.
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Re: CBA minutiae 

Post#28 » by sully00 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:02 am

One thing I have learned this week which I guess is obvious is that no NBA player wants to be a whale expiring deal. Gordon Hayward would rather make less money than be that expiring contract in every trade rumor.
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Re: CBA minutiae 

Post#29 » by grindtime22 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:16 am

It's nice to duck the tax, we probably should have done it in 18/19. It would be good to get it done this year.

It isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be though. Don't get me wrong... it sucks. If you are barely over the tax, then your tax bill could almost double with the repeater penalty. The real pain is in the level system though, more than the repeater. The Warriors are the extreme. Most of their pain is coming from being so far over the tax. The repeater just adds on to it

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Re: CBA minutiae 

Post#30 » by Fencer reregistered » Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:55 am

grindtime22 wrote:It's nice to duck the tax, we probably should have done it in 18/19. It would be good to get it done this year.

It isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be though. Don't get me wrong... it sucks. If you are barely over the tax, then your tax bill could almost double with the repeater penalty. The real pain is in the level system though, more than the repeater. The Warriors are the extreme. Most of their pain is coming from being so far over the tax. The repeater just adds on to it

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I thought luxury tax repeaters also lost some transaction flexibility, but I'm not finding that now in http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm
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Re: CBA minutiae 

Post#31 » by ConstableGeneva » Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:11 am

Fencer reregistered wrote:
grindtime22 wrote:It's nice to duck the tax, we probably should have done it in 18/19. It would be good to get it done this year.

It isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be though. Don't get me wrong... it sucks. If you are barely over the tax, then your tax bill could almost double with the repeater penalty. The real pain is in the level system though, more than the repeater. The Warriors are the extreme. Most of their pain is coming from being so far over the tax. The repeater just adds on to it

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I thought luxury tax repeaters also lost some transaction flexibility, but I'm not finding that now in http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

This also helps the tax teams in the upcoming season.

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Re: Roster / Salary status 

Post#32 » by Jammer » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:21 pm

132,627,000 = luxury tax threshold
109,140,000 = salary cap
S107,915,876 = salary of 12 players listed two posts up
1,224,124 = Cap Space
24,711,124 = space to sign their own players, use MLE, and Sign & Trades to Stay under luxury tax (for example, if they were going to re-sign Gordon Hayward) as their 13th player.

If the Celtics do not revoke their qualifying offer to Semi Ojeleye for 1,752,950 by 6 PM this evening (or maybe tomorrow) and his salary guarantees, the Celtics will be over the cap by about half a million dollars but still with about 23.2 million of room below the luxury tax.

That is the key number they are really working with. If they remain under the cap they can only use the Room MLE Exception of 4,767,000 but if they are over the cap then they can use the standard MLE of 9,258,000 to sign Free Agents using that Exception.

Veteran Minimum contracts will only count as 1,620,564 (2 years experience player minimum) even though their actual Minimum salary, based on seniority, is higher.
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Re: Roster / Salary status 

Post#33 » by sully00 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:42 pm

I am going to merge this up with the CBA thread so we can get all the great minds together.
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Re: CBA/Roster/Trade Rules Discussion 

Post#34 » by ConstableGeneva » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:56 pm

Pretty sure we'll operate as an over-the-cap team. Hayward's cap hold alone has us way over the cap. Just very little benefit trying to get under the cap given the circumstances.

What we should be looking closer into is whether or not Cs are gonna go into tax territory. Determination of who the tax teams are happens at the end of regular season. They can get under the tax line before season-end, if need be.
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Re: CBA/Roster/Trade Rules Discussion 

Post#35 » by Celtics_Champs » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:58 pm

I know some of you love talking about this, and kudos to you for it. It makes my mind into a pretzel. I can never understand our situation and always ask the probably obvious question. So here goes...

With Gordo opting out. Let’s say no S&T he just signs outright with someone who has the space. When would be the next available time we would be able to Max an incoming free agent. I know it’s not this season. Is it any season soon?
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Re: CBA/Roster/Trade Rules Discussion 

Post#36 » by ConstableGeneva » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:03 pm

Celtics_Champs wrote:I know some of you love talking about this, and kudos to you for it. It makes my mind into a pretzel. I can never understand our situation and always ask the probably obvious question. So here goes...

With Gordo opting out. Let’s say no S&T he just signs outright with someone who has the space. When would be the next available time we would be able to Max an incoming free agent. I know it’s not this season. Is it any season soon?

If we run the length of Kemba's contract then optimistic is 2023. Other stuff can factor in like a possible Marcus Smart extension and/or Theis' new contract after this season if we plan to keep him.
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Re: CBA minutiae 

Post#37 » by sully00 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:09 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
grindtime22 wrote:It's nice to duck the tax, we probably should have done it in 18/19. It would be good to get it done this year.

It isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be though. Don't get me wrong... it sucks. If you are barely over the tax, then your tax bill could almost double with the repeater penalty. The real pain is in the level system though, more than the repeater. The Warriors are the extreme. Most of their pain is coming from being so far over the tax. The repeater just adds on to it

Image


I thought luxury tax repeaters also lost some transaction flexibility, but I'm not finding that now in http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm


If you go through the FAQ when they explain trade rules there are different rules for teams over the tax and and teams under, the rules apply after the trade so you can't trade your self into the tax by exploiting the non tax payer rules.

Using certain exceptions also hard cap teams, meaning you can't become a tax paying team that year if you use either the Non tax payer MLE or acquire a player through S&T.

So GS is not going to be doing a S&T for anyone unless they can unload a ton of salary. Same for BRK and PHI. HOU is close as they sit 3 mil below as of now.

The next team up right now is IND which helps explain why they wouldn't want Hayward on a 34 mil starting salary. They have about 5 mil to play with so any Hayward to IND S&T needs to be revenue neutral or send out salary because they will be hard capped.
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Re: CBA/Roster/Trade Rules Discussion 

Post#38 » by Celtics_Champs » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:10 pm

Thank you Constable.
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Re: CBA/Roster/Trade Rules Discussion 

Post#39 » by Curmudgeon » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:33 pm

1. Did you put Nesmith and Pritchard in at 120%. Because virtually every draftee gets that bounce.
2. The Celtics absolutely MUST be over the cap so that the full MLE becomes available. Teams under the cap don't get the MLE or the room exception. So, Ojeleye must stay and dealing Kanter to Mephis has to wait.
3. If the Celtics don't mind paying some luxury tax, the could sign a free agent willing to take the full MLE and then resign Hayward later, either to keep him or trade him.
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Re: CBA/Roster/Trade Rules Discussion 

Post#40 » by Jammer » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:35 pm

ConstableGeneva wrote:Pretty sure we'll operate as an over-the-cap team. Hayward's cap hold alone has us way over the cap. Just very little benefit trying to get under the cap given the circumstances.

What we should be looking closer into is whether or not Cs are gonna go into tax territory. Determination of who the tax teams are happens at the end of regular season. They can get under the tax line before season-end, if need be.


Right, the cap holds will figure into which exception they can use. So, Gordon's cap hold dwarfs whether they let Semi's salary guarantee this week-end or revoke his qualifying offer.

The three Mid-Levels for 2021 are:

9,258,000 Standard Non Taxpayer (means over salary cap, under lux tax level)
5,718,000 Taxpayer (if they keep Gordon's hold on books and don't renounce him this is where they will be)
4,767,000 Room MLE for those under the cap. Only way to get here is renounce rights to Gordon Haywood, Javonte Green, revoke Semi's qualifying offer and maybe even have to renounce rights to Tremont Waters and Tacko Fall, not gonna happen.

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