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FIX the Celtics thread.

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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#121 » by GWVan » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:22 pm

playa-hater wrote:
GWVan wrote:
playa-hater wrote:[

The simple conclusion I have is YOU and some others have different sets of standards. You are happy with the status quo, the treadmill approach. I for one want another title.


Can we address the treadmill bs? A treadmill team is a team that is not contending but not horrible. First round exit every year, no real promise for the future. The Orlando Magic. A team that has made it to the final four three out of the last four years, that barring injury (and mental instability) free would have certainly been in the finals at least twice in the last four years, that has two of the most promising young players in the league, and is currently sporting the best record in the league is NOT a treadmill team.

Side note: during the regular season, the regular season record does matter, in fact it is the only thing that matters.

The entitlement of some fans astounds me. I guess that if you live in the Boston area and root for all the local teams you feel that at least one championship should come your way every year. At least you are still not as bad as Yankee fans, so you have that going for you. Here in my area I see people who are more positive about the local team even though they ARE a treadmill team that has never won a championship and made only one trip to the finals.

I don't do other sports, don't root for other NBA teams, the NBA season ends on the Celtics last game of the year. I have always been and will always be a Celtics fan. There have been good times and there have been bad times. This is not a bad time, it's actually pretty good. Rick Pitino and Jim O'Brien are not walking thru that door.

Did I mention we have Tacko? How could you not love a team that has Tacko?


You can always find teams like Orlando that is worse. but treadmill basically means "staying the same" year after year. Yes we are much closer than Orlando types. But I do not want to be the Bucks of the late 80s, the early Cavs team of the 90's, Utah mid 90s Toronto forever? until they finally pushed through.

As for being entitled??? We have one Ring in 34 years. Hardly feel entitled.


I'm not buying your definition of a treadmill team - If you are a contender, as we have been for 4 years you cannot be a treadmill team. Even if you feel that not getting over the top makes you a treadmill team then if you feel like the team is getting better (and we have two very young stars) then you can't be a treadmill team.

Your examples "Bucks of the late 80s, the early Cavs team of the 90's, Utah mid 90s Toronto forever? until they finally pushed through." confuse me - so a team is a treadmill until they win? Is every team a treadmill team except the Lakers right now? If they don't win it all this year because someone gets injured in the finals are they back to a treadmill team? I'm generally confused as to what your expectations are. It feels like we must be so great a team that we are a lock for the championship every year. That actually would be kind of boring.
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#122 » by CelticFaninLBC » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:13 pm

Just have to wait and see what they should use the tpe on.

For now, Brown has taken another step and is a top 25 guy. Thompson is an improvement at center, and Pritchard looks like a guy who can contribute off the bench. Probably have to assume Nesmith is a year or more away and Langford will be hurt all year...

They basically need an upgrade over Theis at the 4, and who knows if Kemba will hold up.

Got plenty of time until the March trade deadline to evaluate.
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#123 » by playa-hater » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:05 pm

GWVan wrote:
playa-hater wrote:
GWVan wrote:
Can we address the treadmill bs? A treadmill team is a team that is not contending but not horrible. First round exit every year, no real promise for the future. The Orlando Magic. A team that has made it to the final four three out of the last four years, that barring injury (and mental instability) free would have certainly been in the finals at least twice in the last four years, that has two of the most promising young players in the league, and is currently sporting the best record in the league is NOT a treadmill team.

Side note: during the regular season, the regular season record does matter, in fact it is the only thing that matters.

The entitlement of some fans astounds me. I guess that if you live in the Boston area and root for all the local teams you feel that at least one championship should come your way every year. At least you are still not as bad as Yankee fans, so you have that going for you. Here in my area I see people who are more positive about the local team even though they ARE a treadmill team that has never won a championship and made only one trip to the finals.

I don't do other sports, don't root for other NBA teams, the NBA season ends on the Celtics last game of the year. I have always been and will always be a Celtics fan. There have been good times and there have been bad times. This is not a bad time, it's actually pretty good. Rick Pitino and Jim O'Brien are not walking thru that door.

Did I mention we have Tacko? How could you not love a team that has Tacko?


You can always find teams like Orlando that is worse. but treadmill basically means "staying the same" year after year. Yes we are much closer than Orlando types. But I do not want to be the Bucks of the late 80s, the early Cavs team of the 90's, Utah mid 90s Toronto forever? until they finally pushed through.

As for being entitled??? We have one Ring in 34 years. Hardly feel entitled.


I'm not buying your definition of a treadmill team - If you are a contender, as we have been for 4 years you cannot be a treadmill team. Even if you feel that not getting over the top makes you a treadmill team then if you feel like the team is getting better (and we have two very young stars) then you can't be a treadmill team.

Your examples "Bucks of the late 80s, the early Cavs team of the 90's, Utah mid 90s Toronto forever? until they finally pushed through." confuse me - so a team is a treadmill until they win? Is every team a treadmill team except the Lakers right now? If they don't win it all this year because someone gets injured in the finals are they back to a treadmill team? I'm generally confused as to what your expectations are. It feels like we must be so great a team that we are a lock for the championship every year. That actually would be kind of boring.


1 title in 34 years, and we are not some expansion team. by my standards is utterly disappointing.

Meanwhile I absolutely love Jason Tatum and Brown , but I feel the shine on them is so bright it is blinding people to so many other issues that we have.
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#124 » by playa-hater » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:07 pm

GWVan wrote:
playa-hater wrote:
GWVan wrote:
Can we address the treadmill bs? A treadmill team is a team that is not contending but not horrible. First round exit every year, no real promise for the future. The Orlando Magic. A team that has made it to the final four three out of the last four years, that barring injury (and mental instability) free would have certainly been in the finals at least twice in the last four years, that has two of the most promising young players in the league, and is currently sporting the best record in the league is NOT a treadmill team.

Side note: during the regular season, the regular season record does matter, in fact it is the only thing that matters.

The entitlement of some fans astounds me. I guess that if you live in the Boston area and root for all the local teams you feel that at least one championship should come your way every year. At least you are still not as bad as Yankee fans, so you have that going for you. Here in my area I see people who are more positive about the local team even though they ARE a treadmill team that has never won a championship and made only one trip to the finals.

I don't do other sports, don't root for other NBA teams, the NBA season ends on the Celtics last game of the year. I have always been and will always be a Celtics fan. There have been good times and there have been bad times. This is not a bad time, it's actually pretty good. Rick Pitino and Jim O'Brien are not walking thru that door.

Did I mention we have Tacko? How could you not love a team that has Tacko?


You can always find teams like Orlando that is worse. but treadmill basically means "staying the same" year after year. Yes we are much closer than Orlando types. But I do not want to be the Bucks of the late 80s, the early Cavs team of the 90's, Utah mid 90s Toronto forever? until they finally pushed through.

As for being entitled??? We have one Ring in 34 years. Hardly feel entitled.


I'm not buying your definition of a treadmill team - If you are a contender, as we have been for 4 years you cannot be a treadmill team. Even if you feel that not getting over the top makes you a treadmill team then if you feel like the team is getting better (and we have two very young stars) then you can't be a treadmill team.

Your examples "Bucks of the late 80s, the early Cavs team of the 90's, Utah mid 90s Toronto forever? until they finally pushed through." confuse me - so a team is a treadmill until they win? Is every team a treadmill team except the Lakers right now? If they don't win it all this year because someone gets injured in the finals are they back to a treadmill team? I'm generally confused as to what your expectations are. It feels like we must be so great a team that we are a lock for the championship every year. That actually would be kind of boring.


And despite being close to the finals have we ever truly been a contender? Is there 1 year you can look at and say this is the year we should win this?
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#125 » by GWVan » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:30 pm

playa-hater wrote:
GWVan wrote:
playa-hater wrote:
You can always find teams like Orlando that is worse. but treadmill basically means "staying the same" year after year. Yes we are much closer than Orlando types. But I do not want to be the Bucks of the late 80s, the early Cavs team of the 90's, Utah mid 90s Toronto forever? until they finally pushed through.

As for being entitled??? We have one Ring in 34 years. Hardly feel entitled.


I'm not buying your definition of a treadmill team - If you are a contender, as we have been for 4 years you cannot be a treadmill team. Even if you feel that not getting over the top makes you a treadmill team then if you feel like the team is getting better (and we have two very young stars) then you can't be a treadmill team.

Your examples "Bucks of the late 80s, the early Cavs team of the 90's, Utah mid 90s Toronto forever? until they finally pushed through." confuse me - so a team is a treadmill until they win? Is every team a treadmill team except the Lakers right now? If they don't win it all this year because someone gets injured in the finals are they back to a treadmill team? I'm generally confused as to what your expectations are. It feels like we must be so great a team that we are a lock for the championship every year. That actually would be kind of boring.


And despite being close to the finals have we ever truly been a contender? Is there 1 year you can look at and say this is the year we should win this?


Yes, we have been a contender each of the last 4 years.
You really have not sorted the issue of treadmill teams. Which current NBA teams are not treadmill teams in your eyes?
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#126 » by jmr07019 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:49 pm

Some people aren't happy unless they are complaining.
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#127 » by jfs1000d » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:55 am

GWVan wrote:
playa-hater wrote:
GWVan wrote:
I'm not buying your definition of a treadmill team - If you are a contender, as we have been for 4 years you cannot be a treadmill team. Even if you feel that not getting over the top makes you a treadmill team then if you feel like the team is getting better (and we have two very young stars) then you can't be a treadmill team.

Your examples "Bucks of the late 80s, the early Cavs team of the 90's, Utah mid 90s Toronto forever? until they finally pushed through." confuse me - so a team is a treadmill until they win? Is every team a treadmill team except the Lakers right now? If they don't win it all this year because someone gets injured in the finals are they back to a treadmill team? I'm generally confused as to what your expectations are. It feels like we must be so great a team that we are a lock for the championship every year. That actually would be kind of boring.


And despite being close to the finals have we ever truly been a contender? Is there 1 year you can look at and say this is the year we should win this?


Yes, we have been a contender each of the last 4 years.
You really have not sorted the issue of treadmill teams. Which current NBA teams are not treadmill teams in your eyes?

Treadmill is you work hard to stay where you are as you decline. Treadmill is the Rockets. No hope at getting.


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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#128 » by Ernest » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:29 am

jmr07019 wrote:Some people aren't happy unless they are complaining.



It's cheaper than therapy.
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#129 » by Jammer » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:43 am

Ernest wrote:Well this thread didn't age well. We changed nothing and currently have the best record in the league.


Absolutely not true. Either you don't watch the games, or don't know what you're looking at. I'm not going to repeat the blue text of my post on page 5 of this thread, but none of that was evident in pre-season or the first few games of the season. So, it's a MAJOR change for Coach Stevens to get thru to the guys and get them to play the right way.
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#130 » by Ernest » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:47 am

Jammer wrote:
Ernest wrote:Well this thread didn't age well. We changed nothing and currently have the best record in the league.


Absolutely not true. Either you don't watch the games, or don't know what you're looking at. I'm not going to repeat the blue text of my post on page 5 of this thread, but none of that was evident in pre-season or the first few games of the season. So, it's a MAJOR change for Coach Stevens to get thru to the guys and get them to play the right way.


Nope. Everything you said is wrong. I'm not going to repeat what I said on page whatever it was.
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#131 » by Jammer » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:48 am

playa-hater wrote:I won't consider this season a success without a title. Others here obviously feel different.


Agreed. I believe that the Celtics would have won it all last season IF their top 8 were HEALTHY.

I believe they need to make a move, though. Can't depend on the limited firepower delivering every night in the playoffs. I don't think that Kemba coming back will be enough against the Top Half dozen teams in the league. Can beat them some nights, but winning it all requires a deeper bench or more firepower in the starting lineup.

Would love it if the Celtics could pull something off like:

Washington gets:
Kemba Walker
Romeo Langford or Aaron Nesmith
Boston's 2022 and 2024 1rst Round Picks

Celtics get Bradley Beal, who is only 27, and friends with Jayson Tatum

OR, if by some chance Andre Drummond assures Cleveland that he won't re-sign, his remaining salary for 2021 would fit into the Celtics Trade Exception, and perhaps the Celtics can pick up Drummond for something like:

Two Second Round Picks
Cleveland would now have the cap space to take a player back, so the Celtics send either Tristan Thompson or Daniel Theis back to Cleveland into their Cap space
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#132 » by playa-hater » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:38 am

jmr07019 wrote:Some people aren't happy unless they are complaining.


And some people complain about complainers, which makes them a hypocritical complainer.
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#133 » by playa-hater » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:18 am

GWVan wrote:
playa-hater wrote:
GWVan wrote:
I'm not buying your definition of a treadmill team - If you are a contender, as we have been for 4 years you cannot be a treadmill team. Even if you feel that not getting over the top makes you a treadmill team then if you feel like the team is getting better (and we have two very young stars) then you can't be a treadmill team.

Your examples "Bucks of the late 80s, the early Cavs team of the 90's, Utah mid 90s Toronto forever? until they finally pushed through." confuse me - so a team is a treadmill until they win? Is every team a treadmill team except the Lakers right now? If they don't win it all this year because someone gets injured in the finals are they back to a treadmill team? I'm generally confused as to what your expectations are. It feels like we must be so great a team that we are a lock for the championship every year. That actually would be kind of boring.


And despite being close to the finals have we ever truly been a contender? Is there 1 year you can look at and say this is the year we should win this?


Yes, we have been a contender each of the last 4 years.
You really have not sorted the issue of treadmill teams. Which current NBA teams are not treadmill teams in your eyes?


Really?

Wow.

OK let's review.

Boston has been able to sign not 1, or 2, but 3 Max contracts, trade for another, had the benefit of the most lopsided trade in the 2000s? Ever? which gained Boston 5 or 6 lottery picks, 2 in the top 3, 23 draft pks overall since Stevens, with a grand total of 35 since 2010, which is probably 2 to 3 times as much as the 2nd best team has had, and certainly miles better than ALL of the other 29 teams, YET managed NO Final appearance in the last 10+years, NONE after CBS arrived, all while having the benefit of signing a hefty load of FAs and a treasure chest of draft picks that would make King Henry the 8th jealous. All while playing in the weak to extremely inferior Eastern Conference. Yet somehow, someway, some on here have managed to decree that the most underachieving waste of assets in the NBA the last 10, 20, 30 years??? is all good.

Since there isn't any technically merit to base your argument on, you either make a play on an expression like "tread mill" or just make a label of someone that doesn't agree with you like "complainer".

Yet no one has even attempted to justify why NO FINAL appearances in over 10 years or 1 Title in 34 years is even remotely acceptable. Treadmill may have been too complimentary. Utterly disappointing is actually more accurate.

But I am sure some blind/loyal, optimistic, apologist whose happy with small victories will point out how some teams have/had it worse to justify their rational of success and happy times.

Again, I say the standards which fans apply the word success is very different for some.
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#134 » by BK_2020 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:42 pm

35 draft picks yet only 15 PLAYERSs on the ROSTER? What HAPPENED to 20 draft picks we would be KILLING the East with a 35 man deep roster.
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#135 » by GWVan » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:04 pm

playa-hater wrote:
GWVan wrote:
playa-hater wrote:
And despite being close to the finals have we ever truly been a contender? Is there 1 year you can look at and say this is the year we should win this?


Yes, we have been a contender each of the last 4 years.
You really have not sorted the issue of treadmill teams. Which current NBA teams are not treadmill teams in your eyes?


Really?

Wow.

OK let's review.

Boston has been able to sign not 1, or 2, but 3 Max contracts, trade for another, had the benefit of the most lopsided trade in the 2000s? Ever? which gained Boston 5 or 6 lottery picks, 2 in the top 3, 23 draft pks overall since Stevens, with a grand total of 35 since 2010, which is probably 2 to 3 times as much as the 2nd best team has had, and certainly miles better than ALL of the other 29 teams, YET managed NO Final appearance in the last 10+years, NONE after CBS arrived, all while having the benefit of signing a hefty load of FAs and a treasure chest of draft picks that would make King Henry the 8th jealous. All while playing in the weak to extremely inferior Eastern Conference. Yet somehow, someway, some on here have managed to decree that the most underachieving waste of assets in the NBA the last 10, 20, 30 years??? is all good.

Since there isn't any technically merit to base your argument on, you either make a play on an expression like "tread mill" or just make a label of someone that doesn't agree with you like "complainer".

Yet no one has even attempted to justify why NO FINAL appearances in over 10 years or 1 Title in 34 years is even remotely acceptable. Treadmill may have been too complimentary. Utterly disappointing is actually more accurate.

But I am sure some blind/loyal, optimistic, apologist whose happy with small victories will point out how some teams have/had it worse to justify their rational of success and happy times.

Again, I say the standards which fans apply the word success is very different for some.


I would happily define a contender as one of the top 4 or 5 teams in the league, with a shot at winning it all. Right now that is LA/LA/Boston/Milwaukee maybe Philly and or Phoenix. Happy to have my team in that mix. My definition, you are entitled to your own, and certainly my choices are mine and up for debate.

What you have not done is define your definition of a treadmill team or make a simple list of what teams belong in that category right now. That is what I'm asking for, then I can use your definition to list the teams I believe belong in that category and a reasonable debate can happen. I'm not interested in and was not asking for a regurgitation of what you consider to be missteps by Celtics management.

I certainly did not refer to anyone as a complainer. I did propose that many Boston area fans suffer from entitlement issues due to the wealth of local championship caliber teams.

In response you have categorized me as a "blind/loyal, optimistic, apologist whose happy with small victories" something you would consider to be derogatory but I am happy to embrace. I'm considering adding it to my signature after correcting whose to who is.
I 'm sorry that you cannot see things from my perspective. I suspect it is a much happier place than you inhabit.
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#136 » by Ernest » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:50 pm

You should consider changing the name to "team-hater"
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#137 » by playa-hater » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:20 pm

GWVan wrote:
playa-hater wrote:
GWVan wrote:
Yes, we have been a contender each of the last 4 years.
You really have not sorted the issue of treadmill teams. Which current NBA teams are not treadmill teams in your eyes?


Really?

Wow.

OK let's review.

Boston has been able to sign not 1, or 2, but 3 Max contracts, trade for another, had the benefit of the most lopsided trade in the 2000s? Ever? which gained Boston 5 or 6 lottery picks, 2 in the top 3, 23 draft pks overall since Stevens, with a grand total of 35 since 2010, which is probably 2 to 3 times as much as the 2nd best team has had, and certainly miles better than ALL of the other 29 teams, YET managed NO Final appearance in the last 10+years, NONE after CBS arrived, all while having the benefit of signing a hefty load of FAs and a treasure chest of draft picks that would make King Henry the 8th jealous. All while playing in the weak to extremely inferior Eastern Conference. Yet somehow, someway, some on here have managed to decree that the most underachieving waste of assets in the NBA the last 10, 20, 30 years??? is all good.

Since there isn't any technically merit to base your argument on, you either make a play on an expression like "tread mill" or just make a label of someone that doesn't agree with you like "complainer".

Yet no one has even attempted to justify why NO FINAL appearances in over 10 years or 1 Title in 34 years is even remotely acceptable. Treadmill may have been too complimentary. Utterly disappointing is actually more accurate.

But I am sure some blind/loyal, optimistic, apologist whose happy with small victories will point out how some teams have/had it worse to justify their rational of success and happy times.

Again, I say the standards which fans apply the word success is very different for some.


I would happily define a contender as one of the top 4 or 5 teams in the league, with a shot at winning it all. Right now that is LA/LA/Boston/Milwaukee maybe Philly and or Phoenix. Happy to have my team in that mix. My definition, you are entitled to your own, and certainly my choices are mine and up for debate.

What you have not done is define your definition of a treadmill team or make a simple list of what teams belong in that category right now. That is what I'm asking for, then I can use your definition to list the teams I believe belong in that category and a reasonable debate can happen. I'm not interested in and was not asking for a regurgitation of what you consider to be missteps by Celtics management.

I certainly did not refer to anyone as a complainer. I did propose that many Boston area fans suffer from entitlement issues due to the wealth of local championship caliber teams.

In response you have categorized me as a "blind/loyal, optimistic, apologist whose happy with small victories" something you would consider to be derogatory but I am happy to embrace. I'm considering adding it to my signature after correcting whose to who is.
I 'm sorry that you cannot see things from my perspective. I suspect it is a much happier place than you inhabit.


You left out a possible Fav in Brooklyn and Miami but regardless.

Your definition of contender is a little softer than mine. If your definition revolves around a top 4 - 6 ranking then you may have us as a contender. I see it more as strong chance of winning it all. Going back 4 years, I have never heard anyone claim Boston had a strong chance to win it all. Not our fans, the Media, Vegas etc.. Some, including me, did feel, making some competent moves, we could thrust ourselves to "true contention". And I do feel a solid move THIS season and we can actually TRULY contend. Without that move, Boston will have a Fool Gold's chance of contending. Therefor "my definition" of a treadmill team is - One in which a team stays the same on a yearly basis. Also need to add that a treadmill team may have different levels. Fake contention is higher up then regular lottery team etc.. however staying the same is the common denominator in the meaning.

The last Bold actually made me laugh. I have already admitted somewhere that Boston's winning and losing have made me Bipolar. But it stems from waiting and waiting and waiting for results that I do feel should/would/could have been attained. And I will not be content until then. So I guess I can't feel the joy as you might. I inhabit a place of perpetual purgatory. where doing the same things lead to the same results.

Results that leave you happy. Not me.
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#138 » by playa-hater » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:23 pm

Ernest wrote:You should consider changing the name to "team-hater"


It's not the team I hate.
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#139 » by GWVan » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:14 pm

playa-hater wrote:Going back 4 years, I have never heard anyone claim Boston had a strong chance to win it all. Not our fans, the Media, Vegas etc..


This is interesting. I understand that each time a person remembers something, that memory is rewritten, influenced by that persons biases and prejudices, meaning the more you think about past events the more distorted to your own reality your memories become.

This means that my blind/loyal, optimistic, apologist who is happy with small victories attitude toward the Celtics may have tainted my view of the last four years. We may, in fact, have never been considered a contender!

So I did a quick search (duck duck go, but you can use google if you don't value your privacy) of "celtics favorite to win it all" and these two links from just a few months ago popped up.

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2020/07/16/nba-boston-celtics-most-popular-bet-2020-title-banner-18/

https://fansided.com/2020/06/06/nba-playoffs-2020-5-reasons-boston-celtics-can-win-it-all/

I felt better immediately about my flawed memory, at least in this case.
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Re: FIX the Celtics thread. 

Post#140 » by Bleeding Green » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:07 pm

They go to to the ECF ever year. Such a bizarre alternate universe some people live in where being one of the final 4 teams isn't 'competing for a title'. 538 projected Celtics to win the title this year as well.
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