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Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Mon Jun 7, 2021 11:42 pm
by CeltsfanSinceBirth
greenroom31 wrote:CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:Davis Bertans got $16 million/year. Evan Fournier is worth more than him because he’s a better player. He’s not sticking around for $15 million/year. We are going to have to pay him at least the same amount of money Bogdanovic got from Atlanta (4 years, $72 million).
You think people believe Bertans is worth $16M/year now? It looks like a terrible overpay, so not sure why that would represent market or that I'd bring him up if I was Fournier's agent.
You would be a **** agent if you didn’t bring up Bertans’ deal while negotiating. If some house on your block sold for $1 million, and your house was way better than the one that just sold, wouldn’t you want to use that as a price comp or appraisal for your own house?
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Tue Jun 8, 2021 12:23 am
by Hal14
CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:greenroom31 wrote:CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:Davis Bertans got $16 million/year. Evan Fournier is worth more than him because he’s a better player. He’s not sticking around for $15 million/year. We are going to have to pay him at least the same amount of money Bogdanovic got from Atlanta (4 years, $72 million).
You think people believe Bertans is worth $16M/year now? It looks like a terrible overpay, so not sure why that would represent market or that I'd bring him up if I was Fournier's agent.
You would be a **** agent if you didn’t bring up Bertans’ deal while negotiating. If some house on your block sold for $1 million, and your house was way better than the one that just sold, wouldn’t you want to use that as a price comp or appraisal for your own house?
Your post made me curious so I looked it up. Fournier's agent is Bouna Ndiaye. Below is a link to his list of client's, most are international players, and the only guy who really stands out on the list besides Fournier is Rudy Gobert.
https://basketball.realgm.com/info/agent-client-list/Bouna-Ndiaye/66Interestingly, Gobert is also a free agent this offseason:
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/utah-jazz/rudy-gobert-13340/
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Tue Jun 8, 2021 12:36 am
by greenroom31
CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:greenroom31 wrote:CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:Davis Bertans got $16 million/year. Evan Fournier is worth more than him because he’s a better player. He’s not sticking around for $15 million/year. We are going to have to pay him at least the same amount of money Bogdanovic got from Atlanta (4 years, $72 million).
You think people believe Bertans is worth $16M/year now? It looks like a terrible overpay, so not sure why that would represent market or that I'd bring him up if I was Fournier's agent.
You would be a **** agent if you didn’t bring up Bertans’ deal while negotiating. If some house on your block sold for $1 million, and your house was way better than the one that just sold, wouldn’t you want to use that as a price comp or appraisal for your own house?
Not sure that analogy really holds up in this context but whatever. We’re not that far off in value and I agree I’m likely below market as I’m not that impressed by Fournier.
I’d rather pay rotation guys cheaply, especially at areas I’ve invested substantially in draft capital over the past few years (Tatum, Brown, Romeo and Nesmith). Would rather focus on trading Kemba and getting a PG or a big than invest in multiple years of Fournier.
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Tue Jun 8, 2021 12:56 am
by CeltsfanSinceBirth
Hal14 wrote:CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:greenroom31 wrote:
You think people believe Bertans is worth $16M/year now? It looks like a terrible overpay, so not sure why that would represent market or that I'd bring him up if I was Fournier's agent.
You would be a **** agent if you didn’t bring up Bertans’ deal while negotiating. If some house on your block sold for $1 million, and your house was way better than the one that just sold, wouldn’t you want to use that as a price comp or appraisal for your own house?
Your post made me curious so I looked it up. Fournier's agent is Bouna Ndiaye. Below is a link to his list of client's, most are international players, and the only guy who really stands out on the list besides Fournier is Rudy Gobert.
https://basketball.realgm.com/info/agent-client-list/Bouna-Ndiaye/66Interestingly, Gobert is also a free agent this offseason:
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/utah-jazz/rudy-gobert-13340/
Nah, Gobert signed a ridiculous extension. Lol
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Tue Jun 8, 2021 2:39 pm
by GoCeltics123
Forgot the link, but Himmelsbach says re-signing Fournier is likely a major priority (shocker)
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Tue Jun 8, 2021 4:20 pm
by playa-hater
Not saying I don't want Fournier,I do like his Hayyward like impact. But am wondering can Boston better use his salary elswhere while just promoting more playing time to Nesmith and Romeo??
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Tue Jun 8, 2021 5:11 pm
by GoCeltics123
Fournier has indicated he would like to return, and Stevens will be asking whether the veteran wing player, who will get paid handsomely, is worth eating into his precious cap space this summer.
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Tue Jun 8, 2021 5:57 pm
by JHTruth
playa-hater wrote:Not saying I don't want Fournier,I do like his Hayyward like impact. But am wondering can Boston better use his salary elswhere while just promoting more playing time to Nesmith and Romeo??
If we move Kemba, Fournhub and Smart will be like the only guys over 25 on the team. Wonder how much that really appeals to him
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Tue Jun 8, 2021 6:37 pm
by cloverleaf
JHTruth wrote:playa-hater wrote:Not saying I don't want Fournier,I do like his Hayyward like impact. But am wondering can Boston better use his salary elswhere while just promoting more playing time to Nesmith and Romeo??
If we move Kemba, Fournhub and Smart will be like the only guys over 25 on the team. Wonder how much that really appeals to him
Plus Thompson and whatever vets you know the front office will be looking for. (As you get older that stuff isn't supposed to matter as much anyway...)
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:40 am
by djFan71
I don't think we have much issues using Evan as a sign & trade this summer. The salary counting as 50% outgoing won't be a thing.
Questions
92 & 93 are for S&T. In 93:
The rules formerly known as BYC now apply under just one circumstance -- during sign-and-trade transactions (see question number 92). If a team re-signs its Larry Bird or Early Bird free agent in order to trade the player in a sign-and-trade transaction, the player's new salary is greater than the minimum, he receives a raise greater than 20%, and the team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing, then the player's outgoing salary for trade purposes is either his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater
I read that as if we sign Evan to anything less than 120% of his current deal (ie, $17M * 1.2 => $20.4M), he doesn't trigger this and would count as full outgoing salary in any S&T. Does that sound right?
I doubt anyone is going to sign him to $20M. Even if it's declining by 8% that's 3yr/$57M. But if they wanted to, that would work. Increasing 8% gets you to 3yr/$64M, which is crazy overpay to me. I think all that means we can rely on him counting for his full outgoing salary.
Even if someone wants to go crazy and offer more than $20.4M starting, he'd at least count as his current salary, $17M for us.
Which, means we could sign & trade Fournier to pretty much anyone that can send back appropriate salary.
Am I missing anything? Obviously Evan would have to agree to sign, but cap mechanics-wise I think it's solid.
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:46 am
by BostonCouchGM
if we re-sign Fournier for what he can get on the market we are essentially killing any chance of us competing for championships and will lose Tatum. It was a terrible acquisition and throwing good money after bad is what poorly run franchises do. If Langford and Nesmith develop like they should, one of them, if not both, will be good enough to be the starter with the other the backup act the 2 and 3. We're set at PG, SG, SF with starters and depth. Fournier will only take minutes away from the kids and he's not better when you factor in defense. Once you consider the salary, it just makes no sense. It's the type of signing perennial losers make. We desperately need legit 4s and another Robert Williams level prospect at the 5. Fournier doesn't help in either regard. High usage chuckers who don't play defense, on bad teams, put up numbers like Fournier did. They almost never translate to the same production when on good teams. Let other teams sign the Dillon Brooks, Fourniers and Clarksons. Hard pass
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:42 pm
by sam_I_am
BostonCouchGM wrote:if we re-sign Fournier for what he can get on the market we are essentially killing any chance of us competing for championships and will lose Tatum. It was a terrible acquisition and throwing good money after bad is what poorly run franchises do. If Langford and Nesmith develop like they should, one of them, if not both, will be good enough to be the starter with the other the backup act the 2 and 3. We're set at PG, SG, SF with starters and depth. Fournier will only take minutes away from the kids and he's not better when you factor in defense. Once you consider the salary, it just makes no sense. It's the type of signing perennial losers make. We desperately need legit 4s and another Robert Williams level prospect at the 5. Fournier doesn't help in either regard. High usage chuckers who don't play defense, on bad teams, put up numbers like Fournier did. They almost never translate to the same production when on good teams. Let other teams sign the Dillon Brooks, Fourniers and Clarksons. Hard pass
I don’t love Fournier but we need a guy like him and there is no other way to get one. Great teams pay to get shooters on their roster. The Sixers paid 9 million for Seth Curry and he looks great next to 3 stars even though he has been fringe NBA player until now.
We can’t afford to let a 20 million dollar slot evaporate. If there is a way to let him go and have full Gordon Hayward trade exception AND convince another team to give us a good player to use it on.....sure, sign me up. The alternative is to let him go for nothing (no big deal, we only used 2nd round picks to get him) and then sign nobody with our nonexistent cap room.
If we sign him, we can trade him or trade Smart contracts. Trading Kemba is a totally different transaction and it’s irrelevant as to choice with Evan.
I will say this. When he was getting comfortable and all of Tatum, Kemba, Smart and Brown were playing (which was like 3 games) .... our offense looked like it could be special. It never got there but it’s clear that the team badly needs a Joe Harris type to space the floor. I think Evan can be that guy.
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:59 pm
by Celts17Pride
If the Celtics can't move Kemba Walker then I personally would look to give Fournier a 2 years deal and go as high as $45 million total. Overpay a little for just two years. Really important that his contract expires the same time as Kemba's in my opinion.
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:01 pm
by GoCeltics123
Seems like all indications are the money we saved will be used to line Fournier's pockets. I hope 4/70 will be a good fit for both sides
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:13 am
by RickyDizzle
GoCeltics123 wrote:Seems like all indications are the money we saved will be used to line Fournier's pockets. I hope 4/70 will be a good fit for both sides
Are we sure we aren't bidding against ourselves?
If we pay him 55 mil over 4 years, descending, who is going to offer more than that?
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:07 am
by celticfan42487
GoCeltics123 wrote:Seems like all indications are the money we saved will be used to line Fournier's pockets. I hope 4/70 will be a good fit for both sides
I like Fournier just fine, but my #1 consideration with Fournier is making sure we'll be able to resign Smart the follow off season.
Evan's great but he is a shooting guard and we have Nesmith and Romeo who may become playable in one of those roles.
At PG we have Smart and Pritchard who I agree Pritchard is already proven but after not being able to find a backup PG for years I'd rather not mess with that if we can avoid it. And I assume the Jays like Smart.
I think it would be a bit of a **** up if we resign Fournier this year and lost Smart in free agency the year after.
I do think we can get to like 50 wins with a roster of
Smart/Pritchard
Fournier
Brown
Tatum/Horford
RG3/TT (Moses filling in for the oft injured players)
next year.
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:48 am
by Spin Move
I was looking at our cap after next season, the whole point of the Kemba trade was to save money for then not now. We will be re-upping most of Smart, R-williams and Fournier, but depending on how much we do it for we may lock oursleves out of getting max FA that offseason. We are currently at about 87 million commited for after next season assuming we waive horford.carson edwards. We don't know exactly what the cap will be but we will need around 30 million for a max free agent. That is with just Tatum, Brown and guys on their rookie deals. Now maybe we use Horford in a S and T or Trade for a max guy, but that will require compensation going out. Re-signing all 3 of Smart, Williams and Fournier will be very hard to to unless one of them goes out in a trade if we want ot bring in another max level guy.
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:49 am
by cl2117
As long as it's declining I'm ok with anything in the 4/60 to 4/70 range. I'd like to think we can get him for even cheaper given that he didn't overly impress here, but some reports have said he could want 4/80 and with it being a weak FA class I'm actually a little scared he could get that.
I've seen enough of Fournier's track record to be comfortable that he'll be consistent over that 4 year deal. He's a shooter and a solid facilitator/initiator, those aren't going to disappear overnight especially when he's only 28. And they're always skills that are at a premium in this league with the way it's trending so as long as the contract is reasonable then he should be easily moved to make room for a max FA. That's why getting him on a descending contract is so important. Look how much more appealing it made Harrison Barnes seem.
Pay Fournier up front and set him up to be a trade chip down the line.
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:35 am
by Hal14
I'd prefer to only sign Fournier for 2 years. That way, him and Horford both come off the books at the same time in 2023 offseason - at which time we could possibly sign a quality free agent. Plus, only signing him for 2 years is a good move since we also have Brown, Nesmith and Langford playing the same position so hopefully by 2023 either Langford and/or Nesmith is ready to take over Fournier's role..
Fournier is 28, and very early next season he turns 29. I feel like a skinny guy like him who has had a decent amount of injuries over his career might start declining once he gets over 30..
Let's get 2 good years out of him (and Horford) and then move on..
Re: Welcome to Boston, Evan Fournier!
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:59 am
by SuperDeluxe
Hal14 wrote:I'd prefer to only sign Fournier for 2 years. That way, him and Horford both come off the books at the same time in 2023 offseason - at which time we could possibly sign a quality free agent. Plus, only signing him for 2 years is a good move since we also have Brown, Nesmith and Langford playing the same position so hopefully by 2023 either Langford and/or Nesmith is ready to take over Fournier's role..
Fournier is 28, and very early next season he turns 29. I feel like a skinny guy like him who has had a decent amount of injuries over his career might start declining once he gets over 30..
Let's get 2 good years out of him (and Horford) and then move on..
Based on the exact same reason, Fournier will most likely only sign a 3- or 4-year deal. There will be other suitors for him, so the Celtics will have to compete for his services.