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It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread

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Re: Welcome to Boston, Aaron Nesmith! 

Post#1961 » by bucknersrevenge » Tue May 4, 2021 7:49 pm

Hal14 wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:Problem is, it's not Sabonis Indy is entertaining trade options for, it's Turner. And it's been Turner for at least a couple of years now. Nobody wants him. I don't want to rehash it again because it was more about Hayward not choosing to sign but Turner's lack of value was a part of what happened this last offseason. Indy loves Sabonis and they're keeping him.

Maybe you missed where I posted this above:
https://www.nbaanalysis.net/2021/03/23/pacers-listening-to-trade-offers-for-malcolm-brogdon-domantas-sabonis/

If you google "Sabonis pacers trade" and filter the google searches for results within the past year you'll see tons of articles that appeared right before the trade deadline. Sabonis and Brogdon were the 2 guys being rumored to be on the trading block in all of those articles.


Thank you. I didn't see that. That said, that read like Indy was was doing more listening to gauge value than actively looking to move Sabonis and this was before the deadline. At this point I'd that's over now. But it does make sense that if Indy understands that nobody wants Turner, they might see if they can get a "king's haul" from some team for Sabonis instead. It's arguable whether or not JB qualifies as that but interesting. Thanks for the share.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Aaron Nesmith! 

Post#1962 » by Hal14 » Tue May 4, 2021 7:58 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:
Hal14 wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:Problem is, it's not Sabonis Indy is entertaining trade options for, it's Turner. And it's been Turner for at least a couple of years now. Nobody wants him. I don't want to rehash it again because it was more about Hayward not choosing to sign but Turner's lack of value was a part of what happened this last offseason. Indy loves Sabonis and they're keeping him.

Maybe you missed where I posted this above:
https://www.nbaanalysis.net/2021/03/23/pacers-listening-to-trade-offers-for-malcolm-brogdon-domantas-sabonis/

If you google "Sabonis pacers trade" and filter the google searches for results within the past year you'll see tons of articles that appeared right before the trade deadline. Sabonis and Brogdon were the 2 guys being rumored to be on the trading block in all of those articles.


Thank you. I didn't see that. That said, that read like Indy was was doing more listening to gauge value than actively looking to move Sabonis and this was before the deadline. At this point I'd that's over now. But it does make sense that if Indy understands that nobody wants Turner, they might see if they can get a "king's haul" from some team for Sabonis instead. It's arguable whether or not JB qualifies as that but interesting. Thanks for the share.

Agreed that it does seem like Indy was more just listening to gauge interest rather than actively looking to move him.

But it is interesting that Sabonis was the one who was rumored in all of those articles right before the deadline and not Turner.

Maybe like you said, it's because they already tried moving Turner last offseason and weren't able to do it so now they figure why not try listening to some Sabonis offers..

But if they were to trade sabonis (because the double big lineup of him and Turner isn't ideal) it's hard to imagine them getting more in exchange than jaylen f^&%$#@ Brown.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1963 » by Hal14 » Tue May 4, 2021 9:06 pm

JediMasterRevan wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:Pretty amusing to see people turn their noses at KAT but they think Sabonis is at C is bringing us the ring.


I don’t understand how people can write off Towns for empty stats, then want Sabonis. The Pacers have a net rating was of -2.5 with him in, and a +4.5 when he sits. It’s +1.3 when Turner plays and -0.5 when he sits.

The Wolves have a -2.8 net rating when Towns plays, which is somehow the best on the team, and a -9.5 when he sits, which is the worst of when anyone on the team sits.

Yeah on/off isn’t some end all, but impact stats really like Towns as well. He’s just been surrounded by crap his entire career, with some of the worst spacing you could imagine. If him and Sabonis switched places, the Pacers would definitely be a better team.



Its an interesting debate between Towns and Sabonis imo.

I think if Towns is moved the price is massive in comparison to Sabonis.
And Sabonis has a better team, and is still putting up as good of numbers.

Towns is a better scorer and better shooter
Sabonis is a better defender and a better passer
They are equal rebounders.

I think based on price/production Sabonis gets the nod, although I think KAT is the superior player

Agreed, Sabonis vs Towns is highly debatable IMO.

-Both are the same age.
-Both are same height
-Sabonis was an all-star this year, Towns was not
-Sabonis is more durable, whereas Towns seems to get hurt more often
-Sabonis is a better defender, by far
-A major weakness for this Celtics team is lack of ball movement and too much iso ball. Who helps our ball movement/passing more? Towns = 22.7% assist rate on 28.8% usage rate. Sabonis = 25.9% assist rate on a 24.3% usage rate. So clearly Sabonis is MUCH better in terms of ball movement, Sabonis would create less of a situation where 2 guys on the team have the ball in their hands way too much (the case with the current celtics team), Sabonis has a much higher assist % than Towns, on much lower usage.
-Last 3 years, Sabonis has been steady with his on/off numbers, with a BPM that has gone up from 3.1 to 3.2 to 3.3 over the past 3 years. Towns BPM is a decent amount higher at 4.4 this year, while last year it was 7.8 and year before that it was 6.0 which is insanely high.

While Towns' BPM edge is a solid win for him, give me the guy who is a better passer, the guy with lower usage, who plays better defense and is better at staying healthy.

I consider Towns/Sabonis/Brown are on about the same tier value-wise. I'd rather trade Brown for Sabonis than Brown for Towns..if I trade Brown, I'd prefer to get a guy in exchange who helps our ball movement problem as much as possible while also improving our defense. Sabonis is better than both Brown and Towns at both defense and in terms of helping ball movement. The other area that has killed us this season is having too many guys hurt. Sabonis edges out Towns there too.

Also, like the other guy said, it would probably cost us more to acquire Towns than it would to get Sabonis. Minnesota hasn't said anything about a desire to move their franchise player - Indiana has:

https://www.slamonline.com/nba/pacers-to-consider-trading-malcolm-brogdon-domantas-sabonis/

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2858758-nba-trade-rumors-pacers-engaged-in-talks-to-deal-domantas-sabonis

What about Beal? Not any better defensively than Brown. Beal has pretty good durability but not any better than Brown (and Beal is 3 years older so body will start breaking down sooner than Bown) and in terms of ball movement, Beal has a 21.9% assist rate on a 34.2% usage rate, so his assist rate is considerably higher than Brown but his usage is also considerably higher so I see that as a wash. So Beal does not move the needle in any of those 3 areas So I don't see the point in trading Brown for Beal.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1964 » by Fencer reregistered » Tue May 4, 2021 10:58 pm

Celts17Pride wrote:I don't see Beal moving this summer at all.


Recent team success would seem to make that even less likely than it was.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1965 » by Fencer reregistered » Tue May 4, 2021 11:01 pm

As for the next thread:
-- There are a lot of recent trade posts in the Nesmith thread, unrelated to its actual topic, that could be split out to finish this thread or start a new one.
-- I guess it's too early for a thread title "Summertime, and the trading is/isn't easy."
-- The lyrics to "The Merry Month of May" from Camelot offer possibilities ( e.g., "... that glorious time of year/ When tons of wicked little thoughts merrily appear").
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1966 » by playa-hater » Wed May 5, 2021 2:01 am

Not sure I am understanding a Sabonis vs Kat debate if a trade is involved since it would definitely cost more for Kat.
But if we are comparing abilities for Boston. Kat = higher ceiling .. But Sabonis is very very close IMO and always brings his lunch pail.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1967 » by CelticsPride18 » Wed May 5, 2021 2:08 am

Should we start a Draft thread?? We are getting a top 20 pick it might be cool to start talking about prospects.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1968 » by playa-hater » Wed May 5, 2021 2:31 am

CelticsPride18 wrote:Should we start a Draft thread?? We are getting a top 20 pick it might be cool to start talking about prospects.


YES!!!
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1969 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed May 5, 2021 2:39 am

playa-hater wrote:
CelticsPride18 wrote:Should we start a Draft thread?? We are getting a top 20 pick it might be cool to start talking about prospects.


YES!!!


Can't hurt.

That said -- the obvious thing to do is draft a big, project or otherwise, and approximately zero of those are being mocked anywhere in our draft range.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1970 » by Curmudgeon » Wed May 5, 2021 5:09 am

Sabonis vs Towns isn't debatable at all. Sabonis makes other players better. Towns doesn't. But it's a moot point, because Kevin Pritchard wouldn't trade Sabonis to God for eternal life.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1971 » by BK_2020 » Wed May 5, 2021 12:42 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:Sabonis vs Towns isn't debatable at all. Sabonis makes other players better. Towns doesn't. But it's a moot point, because Kevin Pritchard wouldn't trade Sabonis to God for eternal life.

Actually impact stats show that Towns has far greater positive impact on his team.

On/off percentiles for all seasons of career:
Towns: 86th, 72th, 98th, 91st, 80th, and 90th this season.
Sabonis: 59th, 51st, 72nd, 81st, 20th. Basically only one season which can be described as "good."

RAPTOR on/off going backwards:
Towns: +3.6, +1.8, +2.8, +7.7 (1st among centers),
Sabonis: -3.5, +2.6, +0.6, -0.6

Pritchard would trade Sabonis for Towns 8 days a week.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1972 » by BK_2020 » Wed May 5, 2021 12:52 pm

Hal14 wrote:-Both are same height
-Sabonis was an all-star this year, Towns was not
-Sabonis is more durable, whereas Towns seems to get hurt more often
-Sabonis is a better defender, by far

KAT has a massive 7'4 wingspan, while Sabonis has 6'11 alligator arms. KAT is ~5 inches longer than Sabonis.
KAT has played 401 of 457 games so far. One missed game was him sitting out the day his mother died of COVID. Some of his missed games are from COVID-19 infection. Sabonis has played 346 of 374 games so far. The difference is minimal.
Sabonis is just as bad a defender as KAT except he's 5 inches shorter effectively. The guy gets as many blocks per game as Kemba Walker.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1973 » by bisme37 » Wed May 5, 2021 5:04 pm

BK_2020 wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:Sabonis vs Towns isn't debatable at all. Sabonis makes other players better. Towns doesn't. But it's a moot point, because Kevin Pritchard wouldn't trade Sabonis to God for eternal life.

Actually impact stats show that Towns has far greater positive impact on his team.

On/off percentiles for all seasons of career:
Towns: 86th, 72th, 98th, 91st, 80th, and 90th this season.
Sabonis: 59th, 51st, 72nd, 81st, 20th. Basically only one season which can be described as "good."

RAPTOR on/off going backwards:
Towns: +3.6, +1.8, +2.8, +7.7 (1st among centers),
Sabonis: -3.5, +2.6, +0.6, -0.6

Pritchard would trade Sabonis for Towns 8 days a week.


Yeah there's been a somewhat weird phenomenon this season where the Pacers have actually been better without Sabonis on the court. He has a -6.7 on/off, worst on their team.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1974 » by canman1971 » Wed May 5, 2021 7:36 pm

And that is all she wrote.

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