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It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread

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Re: Welcome to Boston, Aaron Nesmith! 

Post#1941 » by JediMasterRevan » Tue May 4, 2021 1:37 pm

Fencer reregistered wrote:
Crash2k18 wrote:
JediMasterRevan wrote:
No one in the world agrees with that.

It really is comical to suggest trading Brown or Tatum (and I have seen some C’s fans suggest both at different times this year). Those two are our building blocks for the future. Also both have played parts of this season at less than 100%. That should always be remembered.


There are so few players one would rightly trade Tatum for that the chance of him being rightly traded is essentially nil.

There are a few more one would trade Brown for, so the chance there's a sensible trade for him is better characterized as "small" rather than Tatum's "approximately zero".



Who is a reasonable trade target, if one was to move Brown.

Beal? I kind of value brown as more long term than Beal. Brown this season is shooting better than beal from 2 and is shooting better on more attempts from 3. Brown also rebounds and defends better than Beal. Beal is the better passer.

KAT? 1 dimensional center who has never shown he can win yet in his career. A strong Maybe but I personally have Brown as at least an equal to KAT in regards to winning.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1942 » by MagicBagley18 » Tue May 4, 2021 2:08 pm

Washington’s season not ending in a total disaster to me shifts beal’s availability. When they were on pace to finish as a bottom 7 team in the league I was very bullish on beal’s availability this offseason and I still think he’ll be somewhere else in the near future but I’m not sure it’s this offseason.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1943 » by Celts17Pride » Tue May 4, 2021 3:06 pm

I don't see Beal moving this summer at all.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1944 » by GoCeltics123 » Tue May 4, 2021 3:10 pm

MagicBagley18 wrote:Washington’s season not ending in a total disaster to me shifts beal’s availability. When they were on pace to finish as a bottom 7 team in the league I was very bullish on beal’s availability this offseason and I still think he’ll be somewhere else in the near future but I’m not sure it’s this offseason.

Yeah we'll have to wait for free agency, which to me is fine tbh
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Aaron Nesmith! 

Post#1945 » by 31to6 » Tue May 4, 2021 4:20 pm

JediMasterRevan wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
Crash2k18 wrote:It really is comical to suggest trading Brown or Tatum (and I have seen some C’s fans suggest both at different times this year). Those two are our building blocks for the future. Also both have played parts of this season at less than 100%. That should always be remembered.


There are so few players one would rightly trade Tatum for that the chance of him being rightly traded is essentially nil.

There are a few more one would trade Brown for, so the chance there's a sensible trade for him is better characterized as "small" rather than Tatum's "approximately zero".



Who is a reasonable trade target, if one was to move Brown.

Beal? I kind of value brown as more long term than Beal. Brown this season is shooting better than beal from 2 and is shooting better on more attempts from 3. Brown also rebounds and defends better than Beal. Beal is the better passer.

KAT? 1 dimensional center who has never shown he can win yet in his career. A strong Maybe but I personally have Brown as at least an equal to KAT in regards to winning.


Heading into the trade deadline I started proposing Brown for Sabonis. Not sure how I feel about it, for either team really, but if we both flame out this season maybe that's about equivalent value.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Aaron Nesmith! 

Post#1946 » by playa-hater » Tue May 4, 2021 4:31 pm

31to6 wrote:
JediMasterRevan wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
There are so few players one would rightly trade Tatum for that the chance of him being rightly traded is essentially nil.

There are a few more one would trade Brown for, so the chance there's a sensible trade for him is better characterized as "small" rather than Tatum's "approximately zero".



Who is a reasonable trade target, if one was to move Brown.

Beal? I kind of value brown as more long term than Beal. Brown this season is shooting better than beal from 2 and is shooting better on more attempts from 3. Brown also rebounds and defends better than Beal. Beal is the better passer.

KAT? 1 dimensional center who has never shown he can win yet in his career. A strong Maybe but I personally have Brown as at least an equal to KAT in regards to winning.


Heading into the trade deadline I started proposing Brown for Sabonis. Not sure how I feel about it, for either team really, but if we both flame out this season maybe that's about equivalent value.


dang I thought i was first with that idea.

But a frontcourt of Tatum, Sabonis Timelord + Nesmith, PP at guards looks beautiful to me.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Aaron Nesmith! 

Post#1947 » by Hal14 » Tue May 4, 2021 5:37 pm

playa-hater wrote:
31to6 wrote:
JediMasterRevan wrote:

Who is a reasonable trade target, if one was to move Brown.

Beal? I kind of value brown as more long term than Beal. Brown this season is shooting better than beal from 2 and is shooting better on more attempts from 3. Brown also rebounds and defends better than Beal. Beal is the better passer.

KAT? 1 dimensional center who has never shown he can win yet in his career. A strong Maybe but I personally have Brown as at least an equal to KAT in regards to winning.


Heading into the trade deadline I started proposing Brown for Sabonis. Not sure how I feel about it, for either team really, but if we both flame out this season maybe that's about equivalent value.


dang I thought i was first with that idea.

But a frontcourt of Tatum, Sabonis Timelord + Nesmith, PP at guards looks beautiful to me.

Isn't the reason why the Pacers are entertaining offers for Sabonis, because the double big lineup (Sabonis + Turner) doesn't work? Sabonis and Turner haven't been a good fit. So why would Sabonis + Time Lord be a good fit? You would think that Sabonis + Turner would actually be a better fit than Sabonis + Time Lord, since Turner has the ability stretch the floor with his 3 point shot and Time Lord does not.

Unless you trade Brown for Sabonis. And you also trade Time Lord (either in that same deal or possibly in a separate deal). I like Time Lord, I like his energy and what he brings to the team on both ends of the floor. But obviously he has had injury concerns and has yet to prove that he can handle starter minutes without getting hurt. Perhaps you move him this summer, while his perceived value is still so high.

There were rumors right before the deadline that Indiana was open to moving Sabonis and Brogdon.

https://www.nbaanalysis.net/2021/03/23/pacers-listening-to-trade-offers-for-malcolm-brogdon-domantas-sabonis/

So maybe you do:

Celtics get:
Sabonis
Brogdon

Pacers get:
Brown
Time Lord

Then the question becomes, can you have both Brogdon and Kemba on the same team? Defensively I'd say yes, since Brogdon has good size at 6'5" so it's not like you're playing to tiny dudes out there on D. Offensively, I think Brogdon is the better playmaker since he has a higher assist % (26% assist rate for Brogdon, 24% assist rate for Kemba) on lower usage (both at 26% usage) plus you have to figure Brogdon's assist % might go up a little on a better team.

So you either play Brogdon at the 1 (on offense) and Kemba at the 2, or you make Kemba the 6th man coming in off the bench with high energy and scoring punch or you move Kemba in a separate deal (Pacers wouldn't want Kemba, they said reason why they're open to moving Brogdon is because they think Levert can be their PG (and they have a good backup in McConnell)....if you move Kemba in a separate deal, it's ok because you still have Pritchard (and Madar if we bring him over) at backup PG. But if you trade for Brogdon and keep Kemba (and if. Madar comes over this summer and looks good in summer league) then I think either Pritchard or Madar becomes expendable and you could improve elsewhere on the roster by trading 1 of them and keeping the other as 3rd string PG after Brogdon and Kemba..

Maybe you really go wild and trade Kemba to Toronto for Siakam. Their contracts are pretty similar. Obviously Ainge has been trying to trade Kemba and Toronto is trying to trade Siakam:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article/siakam-outburst-reveals-another-crack-raptors-tensions-high/

If both trades go down, you're left with:

C Sabonis
F Siakam
F Tatum
G Smart
G Brogdon

6th man: Fournier

Rest of bench: Nesmith, Thompson, Pritchard, Langford, Parker

That squad would be scary good.

Not sure if we'd be over the cap or not, though. If we need to shed salary, you try to trade Thompson and then have Kornet be your discount backup center. That would be my move to shed salary instead of choosing to not resign Fournier. Fournier gives you scoring depth, he gives you shooting, he gives you spacing and he has been solid on D, solid passing. Just not sure if he would be happy as a 5th/6th option here, and if that's all he is going to be here than someone else will probably be willing to pay him more.

Sabonis + Siakam could be a good pairing, as both guys can stretch the floor and shoot the 3, and Siakam has the quickness on D to switch onto smaller guys (moreso than Turner), Siakam is a prototypical 4 man in the modern NBA so it's not like him and Sabonis would even be a double big lineup.

Plus in this scenario Tatum moves to his more natural position of the 3 instead of the 4. Which means less banging around he'll have to do with 4's like Siakam, Collins, Giannis, Davis, Crowder, Marcus Morris, Covington, etc. But then again, I'm not sure what is better off for Tatum health-wise, play him at the 3 and avoid banging around with those bigger guys or play him at the 3 and which the downside there is him having to possibly use up more energy chasing around faster guys..
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Aaron Nesmith! 

Post#1948 » by JediMasterRevan » Tue May 4, 2021 5:57 pm

Hal14 wrote:
playa-hater wrote:
31to6 wrote:
Heading into the trade deadline I started proposing Brown for Sabonis. Not sure how I feel about it, for either team really, but if we both flame out this season maybe that's about equivalent value.


dang I thought i was first with that idea.

But a frontcourt of Tatum, Sabonis Timelord + Nesmith, PP at guards looks beautiful to me.

Isn't the reason why the Pacers are entertaining offers for Sabonis, because the double big lineup (Sabonis + Turner) doesn't work? Sabonis and Turner haven't been a good fit. So why would Sabonis + Time Lord be a good fit? You would think that Sabonis + Turner would actually be a better fit than Sabonis + Time Lord, since Turner has the ability stretch the floor with his 3 point shot and Time Lord does not.

Unless you trade Brown for Sabonis. And you also trade Time Lord (either in that same deal or possibly in a separate deal). I like Time Lord, I like his energy and what he brings to the team on both ends of the floor. But obviously he has had injury concerns and has yet to prove that he can handle starter minutes without getting hurt. Perhaps you move him this summer, while his perceived value is still so high.

There were rumors right before the deadline that Indiana was open to moving Sabonis and Brogdon.

https://www.nbaanalysis.net/2021/03/23/pacers-listening-to-trade-offers-for-malcolm-brogdon-domantas-sabonis/

So maybe you do:

Celtics get:
Sabonis
Brogdon

Pacers get:
Brown
Time Lord

Then the question becomes, can you have both Brogdon and Kemba on the same team? Defensively I'd say yes, since Brogdon has good size at 6'5" so it's not like you're playing to tiny dudes out there on D. Offensively, I think Brogdon is the better playmaker since he has a higher assist % (26% assist rate for Brogdon, 24% assist rate for Kemba) on lower usage (both at 26% usage) plus you have to figure Brogdon's assist % might go up a little on a better team.

So you either play Brogdon at the 1 (on offense) and Kemba at the 2, or you make Kemba the 6th man coming in off the bench with high energy and scoring punch or you move Kemba in a separate deal (Pacers wouldn't want Kemba, they said reason why they're open to moving Brogdon is because they think Levert can be their PG (and they have a good backup in McConnell)....if you move Kemba in a separate deal, it's ok because you still have Pritchard (and Madar if we bring him over) at backup PG. But if you trade for Brogdon and keep Kemba (and if. Madar comes over this summer and looks good in summer league) then I think either Pritchard or Madar becomes expendable and you could improve elsewhere on the roster by trading 1 of them and keeping the other as 3rd string PG after Brogdon and Kemba..



I like your thoughts.

IMO, Sabonis would be a center with Tatum at PF.
A little undersized and give up alot defensively with Sabonis at center but offense would be pretty lethal.

Romeo, Brown, +
for
Brogdon and Sabonis.

Ship off Kemba for bench sg and pf and be all set. Not very many players I send Brown for, but for Sabonis and Brogdon is a no brainer.

Brogdon/Pritchard
Smart/
Fournier/Nesmith
Tatum/
Sabonis/TImelord/Thompson
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1949 » by JediMasterRevan » Tue May 4, 2021 6:06 pm

Jaylen Brown, Satoransky Romeo Langford, to Indiana
Kemba Walker and Rob Williams to Chicago
Malcom Brogdon, Sabonis, Thad Young and White to Boston


Brogdon/Pritchard
Smart/White
Fournier/Nesmith
Tatum/Young/Parker
Sabonis/Thompson/Kornet
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1950 » by BK_2020 » Tue May 4, 2021 6:09 pm

Pretty amusing to see people turn their noses at KAT but they think Sabonis is at C is bringing us the ring.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Aaron Nesmith! 

Post#1951 » by bucknersrevenge » Tue May 4, 2021 6:19 pm

Problem is, it's not Sabonis Indy is entertaining trade options for, it's Turner. And it's been Turner for at least a couple of years now. Nobody wants him. I don't want to rehash it again because it was more about Hayward not choosing to sign but Turner's lack of value was a part of what happened this last offseason. Indy loves Sabonis and they're keeping him.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1952 » by Ernest » Tue May 4, 2021 6:25 pm

BK_2020 wrote:Pretty amusing to see people turn their noses at KAT but they think Sabonis is at C is bringing us the ring.


Also amusing see people post outrageously bad trade ideas while having a big "FIRE DANNY" signature.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1953 » by The Comedian » Tue May 4, 2021 6:25 pm

BK_2020 wrote:Pretty amusing to see people turn their noses at KAT but they think Sabonis is at C is bringing us the ring.


I don’t understand how people can write off Towns for empty stats, then want Sabonis. The Pacers have a net rating was of -2.5 with him in, and a +4.5 when he sits. It’s +1.3 when Turner plays and -0.5 when he sits.

The Wolves have a -2.8 net rating when Towns plays, which is somehow the best on the team, and a -9.5 when he sits, which is the worst of when anyone on the team sits.

Yeah on/off isn’t some end all, but impact stats really like Towns as well. He’s just been surrounded by crap his entire career, with some of the worst spacing you could imagine. If him and Sabonis switched places, the Pacers would definitely be a better team.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1954 » by Ernest » Tue May 4, 2021 6:30 pm

The Comedian wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:Pretty amusing to see people turn their noses at KAT but they think Sabonis is at C is bringing us the ring.


I don’t understand how people can write off Towns for empty stats, then want Sabonis. The Pacers have a net rating was of -2.5 with him in, and a +4.5 when he sits. It’s +1.3 when Turner plays and -0.5 when he sits.

The Wolves have a -2.8 net rating, which is somehow the best on the team, and a -9.5 when he sits, which is the worst of when anyone on the team sits.

Yeah on/off isn’t some end all, but impact stats really like Towns as well. He’s just been surrounded by crap his entire career, with some of the worst spacing you could imagine. If him and Sabonis switched places, the Pacers would be a far better team.


I have no idea about KAT- I really only watch Cs games. But Sabonis is a really good player. I wouldn't trade Smart Tatum or Brown for him. But if we could ever get him as a FA or in a pennies on the dollar kind of trade I'd be happy. I think he is a winner.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Aaron Nesmith! 

Post#1955 » by Hal14 » Tue May 4, 2021 6:42 pm

JediMasterRevan wrote:
Hal14 wrote:
playa-hater wrote:
dang I thought i was first with that idea.

But a frontcourt of Tatum, Sabonis Timelord + Nesmith, PP at guards looks beautiful to me.

Isn't the reason why the Pacers are entertaining offers for Sabonis, because the double big lineup (Sabonis + Turner) doesn't work? Sabonis and Turner haven't been a good fit. So why would Sabonis + Time Lord be a good fit? You would think that Sabonis + Turner would actually be a better fit than Sabonis + Time Lord, since Turner has the ability stretch the floor with his 3 point shot and Time Lord does not.

Unless you trade Brown for Sabonis. And you also trade Time Lord (either in that same deal or possibly in a separate deal). I like Time Lord, I like his energy and what he brings to the team on both ends of the floor. But obviously he has had injury concerns and has yet to prove that he can handle starter minutes without getting hurt. Perhaps you move him this summer, while his perceived value is still so high.

There were rumors right before the deadline that Indiana was open to moving Sabonis and Brogdon.

https://www.nbaanalysis.net/2021/03/23/pacers-listening-to-trade-offers-for-malcolm-brogdon-domantas-sabonis/

So maybe you do:

Celtics get:
Sabonis
Brogdon

Pacers get:
Brown
Time Lord

Then the question becomes, can you have both Brogdon and Kemba on the same team? Defensively I'd say yes, since Brogdon has good size at 6'5" so it's not like you're playing to tiny dudes out there on D. Offensively, I think Brogdon is the better playmaker since he has a higher assist % (26% assist rate for Brogdon, 24% assist rate for Kemba) on lower usage (both at 26% usage) plus you have to figure Brogdon's assist % might go up a little on a better team.

So you either play Brogdon at the 1 (on offense) and Kemba at the 2, or you make Kemba the 6th man coming in off the bench with high energy and scoring punch or you move Kemba in a separate deal (Pacers wouldn't want Kemba, they said reason why they're open to moving Brogdon is because they think Levert can be their PG (and they have a good backup in McConnell)....if you move Kemba in a separate deal, it's ok because you still have Pritchard (and Madar if we bring him over) at backup PG. But if you trade for Brogdon and keep Kemba (and if. Madar comes over this summer and looks good in summer league) then I think either Pritchard or Madar becomes expendable and you could improve elsewhere on the roster by trading 1 of them and keeping the other as 3rd string PG after Brogdon and Kemba..



I like your thoughts.

IMO, Sabonis would be a center with Tatum at PF.
A little undersized and give up alot defensively with Sabonis at center but offense would be pretty lethal.

Romeo, Brown, +
for
Brogdon and Sabonis.

Ship off Kemba for bench sg and pf and be all set. Not very many players I send Brown for, but for Sabonis and Brogdon is a no brainer.

Brogdon/Pritchard
Smart/
Fournier/Nesmith
Tatum/
Sabonis/TImelord/Thompson

That could work. And Indiana probably wouldn't want Time Lord anyways since him + Turner wouldn't be a good pairing (double big lineup) so they probably would rather get a guy like Langford or Nesmith in the deal. Might need to throw in a 1st round pick though, so the value is a little more even (Sabonis and Brown is basically a wash value-wise IMO, and Brogdon is MUCH better, more proven than Langford)

But a Brogdon/Smart/Fournier/Tatum/Sabonis starting 5 could be really freaking good. Only thing is:
-you're kind of wasting time lord's talent if you bring him off the bench (especially backing up a guy as good and as young as Sabonis) so you might be better off trading Time Lord in a separate deal (maybe in same trade as Kemba deal to sweeten the deal since, let's be real, no one is going to want to trade for Kemba, lol) or maybe in a separate deal. Someone might be willing to give up some pretty good assets for Time Lord this summer, especially if he plays well and stays healthy rest of season and into playoffs.
-If you trade for Sabonis and keep time lord, well you have got to trade Thompson. Makes no sense to pay a guy $9 mil a year to be 3rd string center. So again, maybe include him in the Kemba deal but Kemba + Thompson = 2 guys no one will want. Kemba + Time Lord is a much more intriguing package for another team. Bottom line, I think if you trade for Sabonis then either Time Lord or Thompson has to get traded..

With that being said, after reviewing some stats I am now leaning a little more in favor of a Brown for Sabonis deal. Here's why. The biggest downside with Brown's game is he's too much of a black hole, good scorer but he is not very good at all at moving the ball, creating for teammates, it ends up being all of this iso ball. Let's see what the data tells us:

Tatum = 20.7% assist rate on 30.8% usage rate
Brown = 16.6% assist rate on 29.7% usage rate
Sabonis = 25.9% assist rate on 24.3% usage rate

What does this tell us?

1) Our 2 best players have a terrible assist rate when you take into account their usage rate. They both shoot the ball too much and they both don't create well enough for their teammates.
2) Tatum, despite having a slightly higher usage rate, has a MUCH higher assist rate than Brown. So he is a better passer, less of a black hole than Brown. Tatum is also better than Brown in pretty much every advanced metric out there. I don't think there's any debate that if we were to trade 1 of them, it would be Brown.
3) Look at Sabonis' numbers above. His assist rate is actually higher than his usage rate, which is nuts. He's got WAY higher assist rate than both Tatum and Brown (insanely higher than Brown) on MUCH lower usage which means he doesn't need the ball in his hands all of the time, the ball is moving around more, other guys get in on the action and you're able to get more looks for guys like Fournier/Nesmith

Also, Brogdon and Kemba have basically the same usage % but Brogdon has a higher assist % (26% to 24%), not to mention going from Kemba to Brogdon you are getting a guy who's 2.5 years younger, 5 inches taller, less injury prone and better defensively.
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Re: Welcome to Boston, Aaron Nesmith! 

Post#1956 » by Hal14 » Tue May 4, 2021 6:55 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:Problem is, it's not Sabonis Indy is entertaining trade options for, it's Turner. And it's been Turner for at least a couple of years now. Nobody wants him. I don't want to rehash it again because it was more about Hayward not choosing to sign but Turner's lack of value was a part of what happened this last offseason. Indy loves Sabonis and they're keeping him.

Maybe you missed where I posted this above:
https://www.nbaanalysis.net/2021/03/23/pacers-listening-to-trade-offers-for-malcolm-brogdon-domantas-sabonis/

If you google "Sabonis pacers trade" and filter the google searches for results within the past year you'll see tons of articles that appeared right before the trade deadline. Sabonis and Brogdon were the 2 guys being rumored to be on the trading block in all of those articles.
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1957 » by JediMasterRevan » Tue May 4, 2021 7:25 pm

The Comedian wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:Pretty amusing to see people turn their noses at KAT but they think Sabonis is at C is bringing us the ring.


I don’t understand how people can write off Towns for empty stats, then want Sabonis. The Pacers have a net rating was of -2.5 with him in, and a +4.5 when he sits. It’s +1.3 when Turner plays and -0.5 when he sits.

The Wolves have a -2.8 net rating when Towns plays, which is somehow the best on the team, and a -9.5 when he sits, which is the worst of when anyone on the team sits.

Yeah on/off isn’t some end all, but impact stats really like Towns as well. He’s just been surrounded by crap his entire career, with some of the worst spacing you could imagine. If him and Sabonis switched places, the Pacers would definitely be a better team.



Its an interesting debate between Towns and Sabonis imo.

I think if Towns is moved the price is massive in comparison to Sabonis.
And Sabonis has a better team, and is still putting up as good of numbers.

Towns is a better scorer and better shooter
Sabonis is a better defender and a better passer
They are equal rebounders.

I think based on price/production Sabonis gets the nod, although I think KAT is the superior player
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1958 » by GoGreen » Tue May 4, 2021 7:29 pm

Brown for Sabonis?? Nah...
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1959 » by JediMasterRevan » Tue May 4, 2021 7:30 pm

Brown plus picks and Steven Adams to Minny
D'Angelo Russell to Pelicans
KAT to Boston


Kemba(needs traded)/Pritchard
Smart/Romeo/Edwards
Fournier(resigned)/Nesmith
Tatum/Parker/Grant
KAT/Thompson/Timelord/Kornet

Kemba and Timelord shopped for a starting PG or SG who can defend
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Re: It's a Tragedy to see the Deadline's Over Post Trade Thread 

Post#1960 » by JediMasterRevan » Tue May 4, 2021 7:31 pm

GoGreen wrote:Brown for Sabonis?? Nah...



IMO, Brown is better than Sabonis, But Sabonis AND Brogdon and I am listening.

Brogdon
Smart
Fournier
Tatum
Sabonis

Very interesting team

Although I would rather keep brown and just get Brogdon
Brogdon
Smart
Brown
Tatum
Timelord
FIRE DANNY

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