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The Fournier Future

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The Fournier Future 

Post#1 » by celtxman » Sat Apr 3, 2021 11:56 am

When a poll was sent out to grade the Celtics performance at the trade deadline, I was in a small minority to grade the Celtics at A-. I graded it so high because I felt it gave the Celtics the best shot at truly becoming a relevant championship contender again. I graded it so high because as much as I like Vucevic, I would rather let Timelord develop and potentially be the new version of Rondo - the guy with an extremely favorable contract that is integral to the team. We all know about the exodus of talent that couldn't be replaced in a salary capped NBA. In short we can't compete against teams like the Nets without enough talent.
Enter Evan Fournier - a poor man's Gordon Hayward. When I heard Chris Mannix say Fournier should play the whole 4th quarter yesterday it was music to my ears. After his first two horrible games this was desperately needed. If somehow Fournier can be signed (and the Celtics have his Bird Rights), Timelord continues what he is doing, and Brown and Tatum can buy into the importance of passing to Fournier and keeping him going, there is a real chance at a good future
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#2 » by LoquaciousLarry » Sat Apr 3, 2021 2:16 pm

I gave the move a D. I like Fournier as a player but don't understand the model of team building. The Celtics continue to use all of their assets to acquire SG's. I felt this was the proper time to unload Smart.

If they lock up Fournier long term, they'll have to find a way to consolidate the roster. Smart heads into his contract year next year and with so much money tied into the position, I can't see both being on the roster next year.

Whether moving one or a few of Smart, Langford, Nesmith, Carsen Edwards, or JB they have an obsession with SG's while neglecting the Power Forward position. I don't think Evan has Gordons ability to defend, rebound and may be a step or two below Hayward as a playmaker but he's definitely a good player.

I didn't think Fournier addressed their biggest needs and is a bit redundant if they expect Langford and Nesmith to be players in the big picture. If they both suck, I guess I should give this a better grade and continue to be disappointed in Ainge's drafting. Fournier adds another ball handler capable in the pick and roll and a floor spacer. He immediately becomes our 4th best player (JB, JT, RW).

I didn't like losing Theis and Teague for two cans in Kornet and Wagner.

To me, Ainge did well as a last resort to do something at the deadline in acquiring Fournier, but I'm hard pressed to think he was Bostons #1 target and they continue to make middling moves. This move was enough to make the playoffs but not to contend. What I would have given a C became a D when losing a starting caliber player (Theis) for two guys that should be in the G League.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#3 » by RickyDizzle » Sat Apr 3, 2021 3:11 pm

LoquaciousLarry wrote:I gave the move a D. I like Fournier as a player but don't understand the model of team building. The Celtics continue to use all of their assets to acquire SG's. I felt this was the proper time to unload Smart.

If they lock up Fournier long term, they'll have to find a way to consolidate the roster. Smart heads into his contract year next year and with so much money tied into the position, I can't see both being on the roster next year.

Whether moving one or a few of Smart, Langford, Nesmith, Carsen Edwards, or JB they have an obsession with SG's while neglecting the Power Forward position. I don't think Evan has Gordons ability to defend, rebound and may be a step or two below Hayward as a playmaker but he's definitely a good player.

I didn't think Fournier addressed their biggest needs and is a bit redundant if they expect Langford and Nesmith to be players in the big picture. If they both suck, I guess I should give this a better grade and continue to be disappointed in Ainge's drafting. Fournier adds another ball handler capable in the pick and roll and a floor spacer. He immediately becomes our 4th best player (JB, JT, RW).

I didn't like losing Theis and Teague for two cans in Kornet and Wagner.

To me, Ainge did well as a last resort to do something at the deadline in acquiring Fournier, but I'm hard pressed to think he was Bostons #1 target and they continue to make middling moves. This move was enough to make the playoffs but not to contend. What I would have given a C became a D when losing a starting caliber player (Theis) for two guys that should be in the G League.


Fournier for a couple 2nds when we have a deep bench of a million late 1st and 2nd round guys that generally need to be consolidated anyway was solid. Adding Jeff Teague into that deal was good too. He had 3 good games all year and Id rather Pritchard or someone else get his time.

Good move but not without risk. If Fournier plays a couple months and there is no deep playoff run... He likely goes to the highest bidder with no particular allegience to the celtics. If he builds some chemistry, feels valued, and views us as a positive winning environment, he may stick around.

Now... The Theis deal. I get it we needed to get under the tax... But Theis is a good player, fit well, and other playoff teams should have wanted to him. I find it hard to believe the deal wasnt rushed and their wasnt something better out there. Kornet and Wagner? No 2nds even!? I wouldve thought Theis plus our 2nd couldve gotten a late first from a playoff team. That was bad. I also value Theis's bird rights. Lets say we unload Kemba in the offseason, resigning Theis as a rotational big wouldve been great.

The move I wouldve liked to see was trading Thompson and minor assets Ojeyele, Edwards, a 2nd to anyone that would take it for nothing or an expiring deal.

Then you keep Theis and sign him to Thompsons money next year....
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#4 » by MagicBagley18 » Sat Apr 3, 2021 3:28 pm

I think move itself really can’t be graded until the offseason. If he leaves it’s an utter fail of the tpe. On paper he should fit and we’ve seen glimpses last night against houston but if it’s a 29 game rental that doesn’t overall move the needle on our season then who cares.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#5 » by LoquaciousLarry » Sat Apr 3, 2021 3:55 pm

RickyDizzle wrote:
LoquaciousLarry wrote:I gave the move a D. I like Fournier as a player but don't understand the model of team building. The Celtics continue to use all of their assets to acquire SG's. I felt this was the proper time to unload Smart.

If they lock up Fournier long term, they'll have to find a way to consolidate the roster. Smart heads into his contract year next year and with so much money tied into the position, I can't see both being on the roster next year.

Whether moving one or a few of Smart, Langford, Nesmith, Carsen Edwards, or JB they have an obsession with SG's while neglecting the Power Forward position. I don't think Evan has Gordons ability to defend, rebound and may be a step or two below Hayward as a playmaker but he's definitely a good player.

I didn't think Fournier addressed their biggest needs and is a bit redundant if they expect Langford and Nesmith to be players in the big picture. If they both suck, I guess I should give this a better grade and continue to be disappointed in Ainge's drafting. Fournier adds another ball handler capable in the pick and roll and a floor spacer. He immediately becomes our 4th best player (JB, JT, RW).

I didn't like losing Theis and Teague for two cans in Kornet and Wagner.

To me, Ainge did well as a last resort to do something at the deadline in acquiring Fournier, but I'm hard pressed to think he was Bostons #1 target and they continue to make middling moves. This move was enough to make the playoffs but not to contend. What I would have given a C became a D when losing a starting caliber player (Theis) for two guys that should be in the G League.


Fournier for a couple 2nds when we have a deep bench of a million late 1st and 2nd round guys that generally need to be consolidated anyway was solid. Adding Jeff Teague into that deal was good too. He had 3 good games all year and Id rather Pritchard or someone else get his time.

Good move but not without risk. If Fournier plays a couple months and there is no deep playoff run... He likely goes to the highest bidder with no particular allegience to the celtics. If he builds some chemistry, feels valued, and views us as a positive winning environment, he may stick around.

Now... The Theis deal. I get it we needed to get under the tax... But Theis is a good player, fit well, and other playoff teams should have wanted to him. I find it hard to believe the deal wasnt rushed and their wasnt something better out there. Kornet and Wagner? No 2nds even!? I wouldve thought Theis plus our 2nd couldve gotten a late first from a playoff team. That was bad. I also value Theis's bird rights. Lets say we unload Kemba in the offseason, resigning Theis as a rotational big wouldve been great.

The move I wouldve liked to see was trading Thompson and minor assets Ojeyele, Edwards, a 2nd to anyone that would take it for nothing or an expiring deal.

Then you keep Theis and sign him to Thompsons money next year....


I agree with you but if this was the move, I think they should have consolidated their picks along with Smart at the draft this past year. I wanted to move up for Jalen Smith but would have been happy with Haliburton also.

They continue to add a surplus of SG's hoping one will stick while neglecting other areas. The Fournier move was average based on the composition of the current roster. If they had a big hole at the 2 and made this move it would have been a no brainer. As he's up for contract and Smart enters his final year along with two shooting guards drafted #14 in back to back drafts, I just don't necessarily understand the philosophy of team building that Ainge has.

In a nutshell stand alone deal, Evan Fournier for 2 2nds is a home run. Based on roster composition, I felt it was merely an average move and the supplemental deals due to this move were awful.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#6 » by Ernest » Sat Apr 3, 2021 4:01 pm

celtxman wrote:When a poll was sent out to grade the Celtics performance at the trade deadline, I was in a small minority to grade the Celtics at A-. I graded it so high because I felt it gave the Celtics the best shot at truly becoming a relevant championship contender again. I graded it so high because as much as I like Vucevic, I would rather let Timelord develop and potentially be the new version of Rondo - the guy with an extremely favorable contract that is integral to the team. We all know about the exodus of talent that couldn't be replaced in a salary capped NBA. In short we can't compete against teams like the Nets without enough talent.
Enter Evan Fournier - a poor man's Gordon Hayward. When I heard Chris Mannix say Fournier should play the whole 4th quarter yesterday it was music to my ears. After his first two horrible games this was desperately needed. If somehow Fournier can be signed (and the Celtics have his Bird Rights), Timelord continues what he is doing, and Brown and Tatum can buy into the importance of passing to Fournier and keeping him going, there is a real chance at a good future



Haven't had anyone get 20 points off the bench in a while. (Ok I guess PP and Semi did not that long ago, but we haven't had someone to be a threat for 20 every night on the bench in a while.)
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#7 » by OldCeltics » Sat Apr 3, 2021 4:06 pm

Hahahhahaha

The trade deadline was an F-

Read some articles, Ainge was aiming for Gordon/Vucevic and struck out on both. He actually had a good offer for Gordon, but didn't provide it in time lol. He literally was late to give the offer.

Fournier is nothing but another guard who needs the ball in his hands to be effective.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#8 » by bisme37 » Sat Apr 3, 2021 4:35 pm

OldCeltics wrote:
Fournier is nothing but another guard who needs the ball in his hands to be effective.


did you watch the game last night? He made like 75 threes in a row Klay Thompson style, barely having the ball in his hands at all.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#9 » by bisme37 » Sat Apr 3, 2021 4:35 pm

I really want his nickname to be The Fournicator.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#10 » by Skybox » Sat Apr 3, 2021 4:42 pm

I understand the overall disappointment in not getting that bruiser you really need but Fournier for virtually nothing is a great gamble. IF the Jays, Kemba and Evan click, he's a solid solid pickup. Ideally, he's a 28 min flamethrower off of the bench at up to 3 positions (a better Terrence Ross, IMO). He might not start, but he'll likely finish games...he's not scared of the bright lights, I thought he was the fiercest competitor on the Magic, he's big enough to move around, and he was often the lead ball handler for the French National Team. Admittedly, that was never really explored or displayed in ORL, but I think his (alleged) versatility was underutilized in ORL. If the chemistry isn't there, he's gone, but those picks are basically crap anyway. I know BOS isn't in cap heaven and he'll want his fair share next year, at least 15m, IMO.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#11 » by ParticleMan » Sat Apr 3, 2021 4:54 pm

never been a big fournier (the player) fan. always thought he was soft, both mentally and physically. he was a big part of why orlando sucked despite having some decent paper talent in him gordon and vuc.

but i'll give him a chance. if he can slot into that SG role, that would be great. i'd ideally prefer kemba off the bench and smart starting with fournier, this keeps smart in check offensively. my guess is we'll see this the next time we have a b2b and kemba sits. but otherwise smart to the bench albeit playing starter minutes. either way fournier definitely makes our bench a lot better. so for the price that's a great pickup.

but i'm not going to be clamoring to resign him unless he surprises the heck out of me.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#12 » by sportfan6197 » Sat Apr 3, 2021 4:57 pm

RickyDizzle wrote:
LoquaciousLarry wrote:Now... The Theis deal. I get it we needed to get under the tax... But Theis is a good player, fit well, and other playoff teams should have wanted to him. I find it hard to believe the deal wasnt rushed and their wasnt something better out there. Kornet and Wagner? No 2nds even!? I wouldve thought Theis plus our 2nd couldve gotten a late first from a playoff team. That was bad. I also value Theis's bird rights. Lets say we unload Kemba in the offseason, resigning Theis as a rotational big wouldve been great.

The move I wouldve liked to see was trading Thompson and minor assets Ojeyele, Edwards, a 2nd to anyone that would take it for nothing or an expiring deal.

Then you keep Theis and sign him to Thompsons money next year....


No team is giving a first for Theis on an expiring deal. I love Theis but his trade value is minimal. For LA/BK, why trade for Theis when you can get guys like Drummond and Blake in the buyout market?

You also have to understand that the Celtics were limited to teams that had cap or $5M+ trade exceptions (and roster spots potentially)
So that eliminates all "contenders" basically. Otherwise Suns and Blazers would have made a lot of sense IMO.

I found it weird Charlotte opted to use its remaining cap space for Wanamaker with no picks attached rather than Theis, especially since he is good friends with Hayward. probably could have gotten our seconds back and a Martin bro or one of their 2nd round bigs.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#13 » by sportfan6197 » Sat Apr 3, 2021 5:04 pm

ParticleMan wrote:never been a big fournier (the player) fan. always thought he was soft, both mentally and physically. he was a big part of why orlando sucked despite having some decent paper talent in him gordon and vuc.

but i'll give him a chance. if he can slot into that SG role, that would be great. i'd ideally prefer kemba off the bench and smart starting with fournier, this keeps smart in check offensively. my guess is we'll see this the next time we have a b2b and kemba sits. but otherwise smart to the bench albeit playing starter minutes. either way fournier definitely makes our bench a lot better. so for the price that's a great pickup.

but i'm not going to be clamoring to resign him unless he surprises the heck out of me.


Orlando had been devoid of offensive talent until Vuc broke out 2 years ago. If we acknowledge Futlz is a bottom half starting PG, they haven't had good guard play since prime Jameer Nelson.

Fournier being the leading scorer for Orlando twice in the past 5 years exemplifies that. he's never been a sexy analytics guy because he was a guy being asked to do too much, but could definitely see him settle into a better role as a tertiary option
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#14 » by RickyDizzle » Sat Apr 3, 2021 5:05 pm

LoquaciousLarry wrote:
RickyDizzle wrote:
LoquaciousLarry wrote:I gave the move a D. I like Fournier as a player but don't understand the model of team building. The Celtics continue to use all of their assets to acquire SG's. I felt this was the proper time to unload Smart.

If they lock up Fournier long term, they'll have to find a way to consolidate the roster. Smart heads into his contract year next year and with so much money tied into the position, I can't see both being on the roster next year.

Whether moving one or a few of Smart, Langford, Nesmith, Carsen Edwards, or JB they have an obsession with SG's while neglecting the Power Forward position. I don't think Evan has Gordons ability to defend, rebound and may be a step or two below Hayward as a playmaker but he's definitely a good player.

I didn't think Fournier addressed their biggest needs and is a bit redundant if they expect Langford and Nesmith to be players in the big picture. If they both suck, I guess I should give this a better grade and continue to be disappointed in Ainge's drafting. Fournier adds another ball handler capable in the pick and roll and a floor spacer. He immediately becomes our 4th best player (JB, JT, RW).

I didn't like losing Theis and Teague for two cans in Kornet and Wagner.

To me, Ainge did well as a last resort to do something at the deadline in acquiring Fournier, but I'm hard pressed to think he was Bostons #1 target and they continue to make middling moves. This move was enough to make the playoffs but not to contend. What I would have given a C became a D when losing a starting caliber player (Theis) for two guys that should be in the G League.


Fournier for a couple 2nds when we have a deep bench of a million late 1st and 2nd round guys that generally need to be consolidated anyway was solid. Adding Jeff Teague into that deal was good too. He had 3 good games all year and Id rather Pritchard or someone else get his time.

Good move but not without risk. If Fournier plays a couple months and there is no deep playoff run... He likely goes to the highest bidder with no particular allegience to the celtics. If he builds some chemistry, feels valued, and views us as a positive winning environment, he may stick around.

Now... The Theis deal. I get it we needed to get under the tax... But Theis is a good player, fit well, and other playoff teams should have wanted to him. I find it hard to believe the deal wasnt rushed and their wasnt something better out there. Kornet and Wagner? No 2nds even!? I wouldve thought Theis plus our 2nd couldve gotten a late first from a playoff team. That was bad. I also value Theis's bird rights. Lets say we unload Kemba in the offseason, resigning Theis as a rotational big wouldve been great.

The move I wouldve liked to see was trading Thompson and minor assets Ojeyele, Edwards, a 2nd to anyone that would take it for nothing or an expiring deal.

Then you keep Theis and sign him to Thompsons money next year....


I agree with you but if this was the move, I think they should have consolidated their picks along with Smart at the draft this past year. I wanted to move up for Jalen Smith but would have been happy with Haliburton also.

They continue to add a surplus of SG's hoping one will stick while neglecting other areas. The Fournier move was average based on the composition of the current roster. If they had a big hole at the 2 and made this move it would have been a no brainer. As he's up for contract and Smart enters his final year along with two shooting guards drafted #14 in back to back drafts, I just don't necessarily understand the philosophy of team building that Ainge has.

In a nutshell stand alone deal, Evan Fournier for 2 2nds is a home run. Based on roster composition, I felt it was merely an average move and the supplemental deals due to this move were awful.


In one sense, youre right, adding proven talent that knocks the younger guys down a peg decreases the chance they become good players here in Boston and makes it harder to build value for trades, but also romeo cant get on the court, Carsen Edwards likely never becomes eddie house, and they might be better off moving on from some of these guys.

I also dont think Stevens views Fournier (and players in general) as SGs. I think Fournier is a wing and a ball handler. Two of Fournier, Jaylen, Nesmith, and Romeo can play at the same time with Tatum or someone else at the 4. Smart can be the PG in those lineups.

Rather than a logjam at the two, some might argue our best lineup would be Smart, Fournier, Jaylen, Tatum, and Timelord... That lineup has 3 of the SGs you mentioned on the floor together. So I hear you, but I like trading for anyone thats a legit NBA player that commands 25+ minutes at game because we dont have enough of those.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#15 » by celtxman » Sat Apr 3, 2021 5:28 pm

MagicBagley18 wrote:I think move itself really can’t be graded until the offseason. If he leaves it’s an utter fail of the tpe. On paper he should fit and we’ve seen glimpses last night against houston but if it’s a 29 game rental that doesn’t overall move the needle on our season then who cares.
Yes. You have to make a premise to give any grade. So my A- is on the premise he would sign here. If he doesn't sign you have to revert to how Hayward was handled and take it from there. Personally I like this better than giving up assets for Gordon or even Vucevic.
I have always believed the best use of the TPE was at the trade deadline not the off season. At the deadline teams think about tanking. After the season teams are optimistic about the future and dont want to send the wrong message to their fans trading talent. Add in teams know that the Celtics would have a small window when the season ends, and it's hard to envision talent like Fourneir being available.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#16 » by LoquaciousLarry » Sat Apr 3, 2021 5:43 pm

I agree that they like positionless basketball but I still see it as a redundant concern. Three like players with the similar size and skillsets on the floor at the same time might not be the best recipe for success. It would be like making a pizza and instead of cheese and pepperoni you neglect those ingredients to continue to add more sauce.

Evan Fournier as a player is nice but their moves severely neglect weaknesses of the team including defensive length, rebounding, and size. Ainge could say he addressed it with Kornet and Wagner but they can't rebound and are borderline NBA players imo.

I guess I should have phrased it that I understand their philosophy and I am just adamantly against those types of lineups unless they're all defensive stalwarts, which they unfortunately aren't.

Thankful for Robert Williams, without his development and presence this team would be completely useless on the interior.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#17 » by threrf23 » Sat Apr 3, 2021 5:44 pm

I'm really not that familiar with Fournier beyond the statistics. But while I'm curious about his mental toughness (his opening performance sparking questions), I think people are sleeping on his true potential. I know enough to know that he is a Kevin Martin-ish player who is willing and able to take over PG duties as needed. He has the potential to be one of the league's best offensive players.

I don't like him as much off the bench. In the starting lineup, he makes our best players better and on defense we can hide him in between Tatum and Marcus and scheme to undermine his weaknesses as a defender. Off the bench we are less organized and will occasionally be calling for him to take over. I think Kemba is a better fit for that role.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#18 » by klemen4 » Sat Apr 3, 2021 6:47 pm

OldCeltics wrote:
Relad some articles, Ainge was aiming for Gordon/Vucevic and struck out on both. He actually had a good offer for Gordon, but didn't provide it in time lol. He literally was late to give the offer.


What was the offer???
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#19 » by darrendaye » Sat Apr 3, 2021 6:54 pm

threrf23 wrote:I'm really not that familiar with Fournier beyond the statistics. But while I'm curious about his mental toughness (his opening performance sparking questions), I think people are sleeping on his true potential. I know enough to know that he is a Kevin Martin-ish player who is willing and able to take over PG duties as needed. He has the potential to be one of the league's best offensive players.

I don't like him as much off the bench. In the starting lineup, he makes our best players better and on defense we can hide him in between Tatum and Marcus and scheme to undermine his weaknesses as a defender. Off the bench we are less organized and will occasionally be calling for him to take over. I think Kemba is a better fit for that role.


Interesting take. I agree with the basic concept, though, either Kemba or Fornier should be 6th man. Need 2 defenders to both cover for Kemba hunting and to relieve defensive load on Tatum/Brown.

As for grading the trade again? I'm still in the B range. On it's surface, I didn't want them to make a deadline deal. That would have been an A deadline given where the team was/is. 2nd best scenario would have been a Gay for a second rounder or Thad Young for two second rounders, but neither guy was traded. This was a very good option if you work off the premise the core was going to suffer long term harm by doing nothing, or cutting some fat.

It was nearly universally accepted that Ainge was NEVER going to be able to use the entire TPE. The perfect stars aligning situation was to take in player(s) into that TPE and send out Kemba while also dropping Thompson off somewhere and netting real cap savings of over 20mm at least while creating a Kemba sized TPE to roll into 2022. Technically this can still be done. But I'd probably take out a predatory lender mortgage to buy a farm to bet that this won't be happening.

In the meantime, let's see how this plays out.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#20 » by 31to6 » Sat Apr 3, 2021 6:56 pm

bisme37 wrote:I really want his nickname to be The Fournicator.



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