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The Fournier Future

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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#61 » by celtxman » Mon Apr 5, 2021 9:37 pm

As I said earlier I graded this move high because of it's potential to put the Celtics in the championship mix again. Things have to go right, but it is far from a pipe dream - it could happen.
Part of this happening could be assuring Fournier the minutes are there for him. How about Kemba to OKCfor Horford + a first round pick? Who says no ? Figure out a way to dump TT. Get a veteran PG to distribute to go with Smart and Pritchard. Suddenly the roster has balance that hasn't existed since the IT days.
As to those who want Fourier for $20 million, don't mess around and have another Hayward situation. If Fournier continues to do what he has been doing, then pay him before someone else does
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#62 » by Hal14 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 9:53 pm

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:
Hal14 wrote:
CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:5 years, $100 million. Find a way to dump Kemba, and give some of his money to Timelord.

Not realistic.

Kemba is arguably the worst, most overpriced contract in the NBA. No one is going to trade for him. He's still got another 2 years left on it after this one at ascending $, $36 mil next year and $38 mil the year after that. That type of $ for a guy with bad knees, can't play 2nd night of back to backs, can't play defense and is on the wrong side of 30 years old.

You do the best you can with Kemba as the starting PG until his contract runs out - after all, he's not all bad, really good team chemistry guy, positive vibes on the team, a solid 3rd scoring option getting you 17/18 a game, still has a couple more good years left and last night made one of the best passes I've seen in awhile with that insane kick out to Brown while being defended under the basket by 3 guys.

Then in the 2023 offseason when Kemba's. contract is up, you have 2 choices:
a) Let Kemba walk as a free agent
b) resign him for only like $6-$8 mil a year, maybe a 2 year contract?

Either way, Kemba is no longer the starting PG. You promote Pritchard to be starting PG (grooming him to take over the job between now and then) and you've got over $30 mil coming off the books with Kemba's contract all done. You can use that $30 mil to sign an all-star free agent.


Not realistic is thinking that Pritchard is a starting PG. Any team who starts Pritchard at PG is not a contender. He is a career backup, even though I really like the kid.

Based on what?

How can you possibly make that determination based off only a half season sample size? Albeit a half season where he had a shorted offseason to prepare the season, a shorted training camp and shorted preseason.

Is it really that crazy think a guy who's one of the 10 or 11 best rookies in the league might develop into a starter 3 years from now?

The guy can handle the ball, he can shoot it, good spot up shooter, the ball moves well when he's in there cause he's unselfish and looks to get the other guys involved. He's looked better on defense last couple of weeks.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#63 » by Hal14 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 9:59 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:
Hal14 wrote:
CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:5 years, $100 million. Find a way to dump Kemba, and give some of his money to Timelord.

Not realistic.

Kemba is arguably the worst, most overpriced contract in the NBA. No one is going to trade for him.


I bet you could trade him for Al Horford if you threw in a small sweetner. I'd also keep my eye on Dennis Schroeder, who reportedly turned down a max extension from the Lakers. Kemba and an unprotected pick for a resigned and traded Schroeder. Kemba and LeBron can retire together.

Neither of those trades would work. In either scenario, it would put the Thunder/Lakers way over the cap since Kemba makes way more than Horford/Schroder, so salaries aren't even close to matching.

Only way it could work is if someone has a TPE, but even then why would they use their TPE on a guy who's on the wrong side of the 30, has bad knees, can't play defense, etc.

If we can trade him sooner then great, but realistically I'm thinking you keep him until his contract runs out and in 2023 offseason $38 mil comes off the books and you can use that to sign one of these guys:

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2023/
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#64 » by Hal14 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 10:14 pm

celtxman wrote:As I said earlier I graded this move high because of it's potential to put the Celtics in the championship mix again. Things have to go right, but it is far from a pipe dream - it could happen.
Part of this happening could be assuring Fournier the minutes are there for him. How about Kemba to OKCfor Horford + a first round pick? Who says no ? Figure out a way to dump TT. Get a veteran PG to distribute to go with Smart and Pritchard. Suddenly the roster has balance that hasn't existed since the IT days.
As to those who want Fourier for $20 million, don't mess around and have another Hayward situation. If Fournier continues to do what he has been doing, then pay him before someone else does

Celtics say no because we don't want to trade 1 bad contract for another, especially since the guy we'd be getting is 4 years older...and we're trading our starting PG for a guy who would be our backup center (backing up Time Lord) in other words trading a guy who is going to play 30-35 mins a game for a guy who's only gonna play 15-20 mins a game, makes zero sense, not to mention we're also having to throw in "a sweetener"

Thunder also say no because salaries wouldn't match since Kemba makes much more $ than Horford - not to mention they're a rebuilding team that is looking to clear up cap space and add young talent - so adding a 31 year old who's on arguably the most overpriced contract in the league would be the opposite of what they're trying to do.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#65 » by vct33 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 10:16 pm

RickyDizzle wrote:
Celts17Pride wrote:
vct33 wrote:

This exactly. This thread ended here as far as I’m concerned.

It's not like the Celtics and Ainge let players walk for nothing :roll:


If he's going to sign elsewhere into someones cap space, you can always make it a sign and trade and get... Wait for it... Another TPE!


And pay two more 2nds to get it?
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#66 » by grindtime22 » Mon Apr 5, 2021 10:26 pm

Hal14 wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:
Hal14 wrote:Not realistic.

Kemba is arguably the worst, most overpriced contract in the NBA. No one is going to trade for him.


I bet you could trade him for Al Horford if you threw in a small sweetner. I'd also keep my eye on Dennis Schroeder, who reportedly turned down a max extension from the Lakers. Kemba and an unprotected pick for a resigned and traded Schroeder. Kemba and LeBron can retire together.

Neither of those trades would work. In either scenario, it would put the Thunder/Lakers way over the cap since Kemba makes way more than Horford/Schroder, so salaries aren't even close to matching.

Only way it could work is if someone has a TPE, but even then why would they use their TPE on a guy who's on the wrong side of the 30, has bad knees, can't play defense, etc.

If we can trade him sooner then great, but realistically I'm thinking you keep him until his contract runs out and in 2023 offseason $38 mil comes off the books and you can use that to sign one of these guys:

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2023/


A Horford trade is easily workable if OKC want to do it. They could add a small salary to get it in matching range. Ty Jerome makes it happen. Or, they could renounce some of their exceptions. Or, it could be done once all their significant trade exceptions expire.

OKC is "fake" over. They don't have that much salary. They just have trade exceptions take them over the cap.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#67 » by zoyathedestroya » Mon Apr 5, 2021 10:30 pm

We won't have cap space in 2022 or 2023 even if we dump Kemba esp if you consider Timelord as part of the immediate future. I think that's why Ainge and co. made a play for Fournier. They're planning on signing him too past Kemba's contract expiration date. Then maybe you could use Jaylen and picks/young guys to get a bonafide top-tier star to pair with Tatum.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#68 » by RickyDizzle » Tue Apr 6, 2021 2:30 am

vct33 wrote:
RickyDizzle wrote:
Celts17Pride wrote:It's not like the Celtics and Ainge let players walk for nothing :roll:


If he's going to sign elsewhere into someones cap space, you can always make it a sign and trade and get... Wait for it... Another TPE!


And pay two more 2nds to get it?


I think youre being facetious but I really dont care about 2nds. We have too many fringey guys that we have no minutes for anyway...
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#69 » by CeltsfanSinceBirth » Tue Apr 6, 2021 3:22 am

Hal14 wrote:
CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:
Hal14 wrote:Not realistic.

Kemba is arguably the worst, most overpriced contract in the NBA. No one is going to trade for him. He's still got another 2 years left on it after this one at ascending $, $36 mil next year and $38 mil the year after that. That type of $ for a guy with bad knees, can't play 2nd night of back to backs, can't play defense and is on the wrong side of 30 years old.

You do the best you can with Kemba as the starting PG until his contract runs out - after all, he's not all bad, really good team chemistry guy, positive vibes on the team, a solid 3rd scoring option getting you 17/18 a game, still has a couple more good years left and last night made one of the best passes I've seen in awhile with that insane kick out to Brown while being defended under the basket by 3 guys.

Then in the 2023 offseason when Kemba's. contract is up, you have 2 choices:
a) Let Kemba walk as a free agent
b) resign him for only like $6-$8 mil a year, maybe a 2 year contract?

Either way, Kemba is no longer the starting PG. You promote Pritchard to be starting PG (grooming him to take over the job between now and then) and you've got over $30 mil coming off the books with Kemba's contract all done. You can use that $30 mil to sign an all-star free agent.


Not realistic is thinking that Pritchard is a starting PG. Any team who starts Pritchard at PG is not a contender. He is a career backup, even though I really like the kid.

Based on what?

How can you possibly make that determination based off only a half season sample size? Albeit a half season where he had a shorted offseason to prepare the season, a shorted training camp and shorted preseason.

Is it really that crazy think a guy who's one of the 10 or 11 best rookies in the league might develop into a starter 3 years from now?

The guy can handle the ball, he can shoot it, good spot up shooter, the ball moves well when he's in there cause he's unselfish and looks to get the other guys involved. He's looked better on defense last couple of weeks.


He is slow and isn’t a threat to break people off the dribble. He is TJ McConnell with a better jump shot. Name me an NBA starting PG slower than Pritchard.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#70 » by LarryBirdsFingr » Tue Apr 6, 2021 3:40 am

zoyathedestroya wrote:We won't have cap space in 2022 or 2023 even if we dump Kemba esp if you consider Timelord as part of the immediate future. I think that's why Ainge and co. made a play for Fournier. They're planning on signing him too past Kemba's contract expiration date. Then maybe you could use Jaylen and picks/young guys to get a bonafide top-tier star to pair with Tatum.

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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#71 » by djFan71 » Tue Apr 6, 2021 5:09 am

For Kemba, Horford trades, you need to bring in the Knicks. They get Kemba, we get Al, OKC gets TT and salary relief. Then they flip TT for another 2nd at the deadline.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#72 » by LoquaciousLarry » Tue Apr 6, 2021 5:24 am

djFan71 wrote:For Kemba, Horford trades, you need to bring in the Knicks. They get Kemba, we get Al, OKC gets TT and salary relief. Then they flip TT for another 2nd at the deadline.


Not sure I'm for this deal but you're absolutely right.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#73 » by ddb » Tue Apr 6, 2021 12:13 pm

JHTruth wrote:
ddb wrote:Fournier is a good fit in Boston. If his number isn't too crazy then I would look to lock him up. If he prefers to start then Boston isn't the place for him, but if he embraces the 6th man role he can win 6th Man of the Year awards while playing for really good Celtics teams moving forward.


Don't see him signing up for 6th man role. They are going to move Kemba and extend Rob and resign Fournier. Probably move TT if they can.


Right, I understand that is the probably part of the goal this offseason, but who's taking on Kemba or TT? And in those deals you're gonna need to take back salary. Will be an interesting off-season for sure.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#74 » by 31to6 » Tue Apr 6, 2021 12:18 pm

RickyDizzle wrote:
vct33 wrote:
RickyDizzle wrote:
If he's going to sign elsewhere into someones cap space, you can always make it a sign and trade and get... Wait for it... Another TPE!


And pay two more 2nds to get it?


I think youre being facetious but I really dont care about 2nds. We have too many fringey guys that we have no minutes for anyway...


How will we acquire more 6’0” SGs and 6’5” C/PFs though??
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#75 » by Hal14 » Tue Apr 6, 2021 4:11 pm

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:
Hal14 wrote:
CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:
Not realistic is thinking that Pritchard is a starting PG. Any team who starts Pritchard at PG is not a contender. He is a career backup, even though I really like the kid.

Based on what?

How can you possibly make that determination based off only a half season sample size? Albeit a half season where he had a shorted offseason to prepare the season, a shorted training camp and shorted preseason.

Is it really that crazy think a guy who's one of the 10 or 11 best rookies in the league might develop into a starter 3 years from now?

The guy can handle the ball, he can shoot it, good spot up shooter, the ball moves well when he's in there cause he's unselfish and looks to get the other guys involved. He's looked better on defense last couple of weeks.


He is slow and isn’t a threat to break people off the dribble. He is TJ McConnell with a better jump shot. Name me an NBA starting PG slower than Pritchard.

You might be right. He's 6'1" and slow. Can't break down defenders off the dribble (well he can sometimes but definitely not a strength) and can't really defend quick/elite point guards. Good shooter but not that good at getting assists..
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#76 » by playa-hater » Tue Apr 6, 2021 8:04 pm

Hal14 wrote:
CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:
Hal14 wrote:Based on what?

How can you possibly make that determination based off only a half season sample size? Albeit a half season where he had a shorted offseason to prepare the season, a shorted training camp and shorted preseason.

Is it really that crazy think a guy who's one of the 10 or 11 best rookies in the league might develop into a starter 3 years from now?

The guy can handle the ball, he can shoot it, good spot up shooter, the ball moves well when he's in there cause he's unselfish and looks to get the other guys involved. He's looked better on defense last couple of weeks.


He is slow and isn’t a threat to break people off the dribble. He is TJ McConnell with a better jump shot. Name me an NBA starting PG slower than Pritchard.

You might be right. He's 6'1" and slow. Can't break down defenders off the dribble (well he can sometimes but definitely not a strength) and can't really defend quick/elite point guards. Good shooter but not that good at getting assists..


Speed is so overrated. Subtleties are more important. PP is the same speed as Prime Steve Nash, Steve Kerr, John Paxson and even Seth Curry. Obviously not saying he is not the next Nash. Plus TJ with a deadly jumpshot would be a very good starting PG.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#77 » by celtxman » Tue Apr 6, 2021 9:21 pm

Hal14 wrote:
celtxman wrote:As I said earlier I graded this move high because of it's potential to put the Celtics in the championship mix again. Things have to go right, but it is far from a pipe dream - it could happen.
Part of this happening could be assuring Fournier the minutes are there for him. How about Kemba to OKCfor Horford + a first round pick? Who says no ? Figure out a way to dump TT. Get a veteran PG to distribute to go with Smart and Pritchard. Suddenly the roster has balance that hasn't existed since the IT days.
As to those who want Fourier for $20 million, don't mess around and have another Hayward situation. If Fournier continues to do what he has been doing, then pay him before someone else does

Celtics say no because we don't want to trade 1 bad contract for another, especially since the guy we'd be getting is 4 years older...and we're trading our starting PG for a guy who would be our backup center (backing up Time Lord) in other words trading a guy who is going to play 30-35 mins a game for a guy who's only gonna play 15-20 mins a game, makes zero sense, not to mention we're also having to throw in "a sweetener"

Thunder also say no because salaries wouldn't match since Kemba makes much more $ than Horford - not to mention they're a rebuilding team that is looking to clear up cap space and add young talent - so adding a 31 year old who's on arguably the most overpriced contract in the league would be the opposite of what they're trying to do.
Horford and Kemba end at the same time after 2 more seasons. OKC will not be in position to worry about the difference with Kemba's salary in those two years.
What has really made zero sense is having a mismatched roster. Since it is a given that both Horford and Kemba are way overpaid, and the likelihood that the Celtics would have to keep Kemba barring a trade like this, which player fits best if Fournier is signed. Horford is at the point he can get 6 shots, spell Timelord, or get 17 points the next game and stretch the floor. You end up with Tatum, Brown and Fournier as your scorers and you work on Neismith and Langford to fill in and cover injuries.
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Re: The Fournier Future 

Post#78 » by CeltsfanSinceBirth » Tue Apr 6, 2021 9:36 pm

playa-hater wrote:
Hal14 wrote:
CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:
He is slow and isn’t a threat to break people off the dribble. He is TJ McConnell with a better jump shot. Name me an NBA starting PG slower than Pritchard.

You might be right. He's 6'1" and slow. Can't break down defenders off the dribble (well he can sometimes but definitely not a strength) and can't really defend quick/elite point guards. Good shooter but not that good at getting assists..


Speed is so overrated. Subtleties are more important. PP is the same speed as Prime Steve Nash, Steve Kerr, John Paxson and even Seth Curry. Obviously not saying he is not the next Nash. Plus TJ with a deadly jumpshot would be a very good starting PG.


Paul Pierce and Steve Nash had excellent footwork. Steve Nash also had tremendous court vision and was a maestro at running an offense. I guess we could get away with starting PP if we had Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen, just like Paxson did. The comparison to Kerr is fitting since he’s a career backup.

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