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James Harden redux

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James Harden redux 

Post#1 » by bucknersrevenge » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:07 am

Wasn't sure if this question belonged in the post deadline thread or not but I kinda wanted to see where people were at on this question at this point. Earlier this year we had the possibility of acquiring James Harden for the "low-low" price of Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart and Danny did not pull the trigger. Most people applauded him not pulling the trigger.

Given how this season has gone; given how Smart's contract status is kinda looming in the very not-too-distant future, do you wish we had done it?

If you're someone who was against the deal before, now knowing what you know and seeing Harden play like an MVP-caliber player for the Nets, have you changed your mind? Or do you still not want Harden and/or think the cost is too prohibitive?

If you wanted to do it before has this season confirmed your earlier belief or do you feel like after the Fournier trade we're better but also this season has been so screwed up and if we got a full season of the Jay's/FournHub/Rob as the core with PP and maybe Romeo off the bench that this team could make some noise next year pending proper trades?

I have a feeling I know where MagicBagley stands on this.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#2 » by Captain_Caveman » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:31 am

I still say that you consider it, and still say you don't do it.

Kemba/Harden/Tatum not winning a title, so what's the point?
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#3 » by LarryBirdsFingr » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:55 am

Captain_Caveman wrote:I still say that you consider it, and still say you don't do it.

Kemba/Harden/Tatum not winning a title, so what's the point?

Yeah not enough. It's just Tatum with more points. It didn't work for Harden as a main piece, why would it here.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#4 » by Bleeding Green » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:56 am

If all it costs is Brown and Smart to get Harden, you do it 100 out of 100 times. He's one of the 10 best offensive players of all time and presently an MVP candidate on the best team in the East.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#5 » by bucknersrevenge » Wed Apr 7, 2021 3:59 am

Captain_Caveman wrote:I still say that you consider it, and still say you don't do it.

Kemba/Harden/Tatum not winning a title, so what's the point?


I thought you might feel that way. Let me ask you this: are you any closer to winning a title? You still probably need to move off Kemba in the offseason. Maybe you still make the Fournier deal to add to that or maybe you still have the TPE in the offseason to add to Harden/Tatum/Rob. For kicks, let's throw Fournier in there now. Is this group good enough to win just in the East right now? Could that group get past the 3 contenders in the East?

EDIT: If it is, aren't you obliged to give yourself a shot to go to the Finals and then see what you can add to that?
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#6 » by Captain_Caveman » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:30 am

bucknersrevenge wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:I still say that you consider it, and still say you don't do it.

Kemba/Harden/Tatum not winning a title, so what's the point?


I thought you might feel that way. Let me ask you this: are you any closer to winning a title? You still probably need to move off Kemba in the offseason. Maybe you still make the Fournier deal to add to that or maybe you still have the TPE in the offseason to add to Harden/Tatum/Rob. For kicks, let's throw Fournier in there now. Is this group good enough to win just in the East right now? Could that group get past the 3 contenders in the East?

EDIT: If it is, aren't you obliged to give yourself a shot to go to the Finals and then see what you can add to that?


I think you don't make Finals this year, and then are already in a situation where Harden is gone in a year. There is no way he really wanted to play here, and we just witnessed him taking a flamethrower to his own locker room to get traded. Kemba, Harden, and Tatum would also be on the books for $108.4m next year, which would be super limiting in terms of having a good cast around them.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#7 » by soxfan2003 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 5:56 am

bucknersrevenge wrote:Wasn't sure if this question belonged in the post deadline thread or not but I kinda wanted to see where people were at on this question at this point. Earlier this year we had the possibility of acquiring James Harden for the "low-low" price of Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart and Danny did not pull the trigger. Most people applauded him not pulling the trigger.

Given how this season has gone; given how Smart's contract status is kinda looming in the very not-too-distant future, do you wish we had done it?

If you're someone who was against the deal before, now knowing what you know and seeing Harden play like an MVP-caliber player for the Nets, have you changed your mind? Or do you still not want Harden and/or think the cost is too prohibitive?

If you wanted to do it before has this season confirmed your earlier belief or do you feel like after the Fournier trade we're better but also this season has been so screwed up and if we got a full season of the Jay's/FournHub/Rob as the core with PP and maybe Romeo off the bench that this team could make some noise next year pending proper trades?

I have a feeling I know where MagicBagley stands on this.


If Celtics go for it and fail, I am fine with that if they had a reasonable chance to win it all. Philly going for it a few years ago with Butler is a decent example of that. They just narrowly lost to the eventual champion.

But harder for me to support a major move, I just don't think has a decent chance (maybe 20% or better) of leading to a title.

This team wasn't going to win a championship in my opinion without trading Kemba Walker who I believe had negative trade value heading into the season. I was in favor of trading Walker + all picks + a young player or two for Harden. Such a team even with the big size upgrade at PG (Walker to Harden) would still be a small team given Theis/Williams at center but would have at least a real shot especially if other top teams faltered a bit. But Houston would not have done that deal when Brooklyn offered a better deal.

Brown/Smart and maybe 1 pick they may have done but where would that have left the Celtics?

So as much as I can fault Ainge/Wyc/Stevens/everyone associated with the Celtics for signing Kemba to the max, I can't fault Ainge for not trading away Brown/Smart for a James Harden in his early 30's that was out of shape at the time.

Harden/Tatum/Kemba and the rest of what the Celtics have would have come up short.

I would rather have had the Celtics trade Jaylen Brown for picks/younger player.
And then maybe have the Celtics trade Marcus Smart for picks...or a first year player
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#8 » by CelticsLV » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:05 am

Easily, yes! Harden not only replaces all their scoring but also provides much bigger gravity with his elite playmaking, and he's very good at making role players around him better. Massive net improvement.

Could've still made push for Gordon/Fournier. Something like Walker/Harden/Tatum/Gordon/RWill
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#9 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed Apr 7, 2021 7:56 am

Why hire a guy who doesn't want to be with you?
Why root for one?
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#10 » by thebirdman » Wed Apr 7, 2021 8:35 am

I missed the memo that we have a new coach.

We don't?

OK, there is no way Harden would thrive here or consider signing an extention.

So, why waste JB and Smart for a couple of second round exits?

Until Stevens is here there will be no trade for a superstar, sorry.


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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#11 » by return2glory » Wed Apr 7, 2021 12:33 pm

Harden would have been a rental and would have bailed. He wanted to play with his buddy KD and the Nets.

Let’s not forget a lot of these star players have been given too much control because of the amount of money they get paid. They get to eventually pick and choice where they want to go and how they want to play with.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#12 » by bucknersrevenge » Wed Apr 7, 2021 12:46 pm

return2glory wrote:Harden would have been a rental and would have bailed. He wanted to play with his buddy KD and the Nets.

Let’s not forget a lot of these star players have been given too much control because of the amount of money they get paid. They get to eventually pick and choice where they want to go and how they want to play with.


Do you feel owners should have more control of players?
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#13 » by BK_2020 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 12:56 pm

There's no indication that Houston would've taken Jaylen and Smart for Harden. They turned down Simmons who is better than Jaylen and Smart combined. It's pretty clear that Houston valued the Nets' package higher than any 3rd rate star who would get them 30 wins a year.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#14 » by pac213up » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:07 pm

James Harden wanted to play with KD and Kyrie. Putting him in a situation that he likely would not want to be in would not be beneficial to the Celtics.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#15 » by bucknersrevenge » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:17 pm

BK_2020 wrote:There's no indication that Houston would've taken Jaylen and Smart for Harden. They turned down Simmons who is better than Jaylen and Smart combined. It's pretty clear that Houston valued the Nets' package higher than any 3rd rate star who would get them 30 wins a year.


You think they turned DOWN Simmons for what they got from the Nets? You think Simmons was ever really on the table?

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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#16 » by BK_2020 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:20 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:There's no indication that Houston would've taken Jaylen and Smart for Harden. They turned down Simmons who is better than Jaylen and Smart combined. It's pretty clear that Houston valued the Nets' package higher than any 3rd rate star who would get them 30 wins a year.


You think they turned DOWN Simmons for what they got from the Nets? You think Simmons was ever really on the table?

It's been widely reported that Simmons was on the table.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#17 » by CeltsfanSinceBirth » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:26 pm

BK_2020 wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:There's no indication that Houston would've taken Jaylen and Smart for Harden. They turned down Simmons who is better than Jaylen and Smart combined. It's pretty clear that Houston valued the Nets' package higher than any 3rd rate star who would get them 30 wins a year.


You think they turned DOWN Simmons for what they got from the Nets? You think Simmons was ever really on the table?

It's been widely reported that Simmons was on the table.


It was Fertitta having a grudge against Morey. There was hell in no way they were going to ship Harden to Philadelphia. The Rockets owner is a petty dude.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#18 » by MagicBagley18 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:31 pm

Gimme harden Tatum a 28.5 million dollar tpe and all my draft picks going into this years trade deadline instead of this **** sandwich.

There’s no juggernaut in the east if harden isn’t on the nets, the lakers have been hit by injury, Philly is good but not unbeatable and unproven in the postseason- same for milwaukee. If harden is on the team this deadline ainge would have been more aggressive we would have a definitive reason to go for it for 2 seasons minimum. Maybe we even move kemba for 2 rotational players and put the ball in hardens hands etc.

We may not be the hands down no brainer favorite but we would have had a legitimate shot- like a real shot to win the finals. We have none right now and by harden getting to the nets we’ve essentially been rendered to meaningless for 2 years or exactly half of Jaylens extension.

If we could have kept smart in the deal (doubtful but who knows) it was a no brainer.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#19 » by MagicBagley18 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:38 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:
BK_2020 wrote:There's no indication that Houston would've taken Jaylen and Smart for Harden. They turned down Simmons who is better than Jaylen and Smart combined. It's pretty clear that Houston valued the Nets' package higher than any 3rd rate star who would get them 30 wins a year.


You think they turned DOWN Simmons for what they got from the Nets? You think Simmons was ever really on the table?

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Morey was dead set on never sending harden to Philly unless Morey begged pleaded, crawled AND then over paid. Houston also didn’t mind the expiring contracts of a guy like dipo etc.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#20 » by threrf23 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:42 pm

I'm curious as to what the price would have been, Jaylen for Harden was not getting anything done straight up.

I don't view Harden as a top 5 player overall, and playing for Nash/D'Antoni inflates his stats. Not that he isn't an elite scorer and offensive player, with the potential to be the league's best offensive player. But compared to others of his stature, his defense tends to be a relative weakness and he doesn't make his teammates as better as his production suggests.

I was never outright against a Harden trade as when you can land a player of his caliber, you try. But unless the price was a no brainer, would have made me nervous as hell. 32 years old in August, has not always kept in consistent physical shape, has been a heavy partier. Objectively IMO, this is when bad habits from the past are likely to finally catch up to him, there is a decent chance he is going to suffer a bad knee injury within the next season or two, and people are going to write it off as bad luck for the Nets when in reality it was pretty foreseeable.

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