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James Harden redux

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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#21 » by BK_2020 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:43 pm

These are the scenarios Houston was looking at:
1. Get Simmons and a couple of non-lotto picks, lose their own 2021 pick in a loaded draft, and treadmill for a few years then lose Simmons to FA.
2. Get expirings back and a bunch of Nets picks after Harden, KD, and Kyrie's contracts run out. Suck hard and have a top 5 pick in a loaded 2021 draft.
Why would any FO take the 1st option (or Jaylen)?
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#22 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:46 pm

BK_2020 wrote:These are the scenarios Houston was looking at:
1. Get Simmons and a couple of non-lotto picks, lose their own 2021 pick in a loaded draft, and treadmill for a few years then lose Simmons to FA.
2. Get expirings back and a bunch of Nets picks after Harden, KD, and Kyrie's contracts run out. Suck hard and have a top 5 pick in a loaded 2021 draft.
Why would any FO take the 1st option (or Jaylen)?


Possible third option: Redirect Simmons (or Jaylen?) for value, e.g. from the Warriors.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#23 » by BK_2020 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:49 pm

Simmons and Draymond are probably unplayable together. Not to mention Houston would have to take Wiggins back when they are trying to clear cap space.
Not sure how hard Ainge tried but our 2023, 2024, 2025 and 2026 picks are not as appealing as the Nets' picks considering KD, Kyrie and Harden can all opt out in 2022, and they are old.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#24 » by MagicBagley18 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 4:57 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:Wasn't sure if this question belonged in the post deadline thread or not but I kinda wanted to see where people were at on this question at this point. Earlier this year we had the possibility of acquiring James Harden for the "low-low" price of Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart and Danny did not pull the trigger. Most people applauded him not pulling the trigger.

Given how this season has gone; given how Smart's contract status is kinda looming in the very not-too-distant future, do you wish we had done it?

If you're someone who was against the deal before, now knowing what you know and seeing Harden play like an MVP-caliber player for the Nets, have you changed your mind? Or do you still not want Harden and/or think the cost is too prohibitive?

If you wanted to do it before has this season confirmed your earlier belief or do you feel like after the Fournier trade we're better but also this season has been so screwed up and if we got a full season of the Jay's/FournHub/Rob as the core with PP and maybe Romeo off the bench that this team could make some noise next year pending proper trades?

I have a feeling I know where MagicBagley stands on this.


What’s your take buddy? should have done it? Glad we didn’t? indifferent? Curious of your opinion now and refreshing me on what u thought then
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#25 » by Captain_Caveman » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:17 pm

return2glory wrote:Harden would have been a rental and would have bailed. He wanted to play with his buddy KD and the Nets.

Let’s not forget a lot of these star players have been given too much control because of the amount of money they get paid revenue they generate. They get to eventually pick and choice where they want to go and how they want to play with.


Seems a little more accurate.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#26 » by CeltsfaninDC » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:25 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:Wasn't sure if this question belonged in the post deadline thread or not but I kinda wanted to see where people were at on this question at this point. Earlier this year we had the possibility of acquiring James Harden for the "low-low" price of Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart and Danny did not pull the trigger. Most people applauded him not pulling the trigger.

Given how this season has gone; given how Smart's contract status is kinda looming in the very not-too-distant future, do you wish we had done it?

If you're someone who was against the deal before, now knowing what you know and seeing Harden play like an MVP-caliber player for the Nets, have you changed your mind? Or do you still not want Harden and/or think the cost is too prohibitive?

If you wanted to do it before has this season confirmed your earlier belief or do you feel like after the Fournier trade we're better but also this season has been so screwed up and if we got a full season of the Jay's/FournHub/Rob as the core with PP and maybe Romeo off the bench that this team could make some noise next year pending proper trades?

I have a feeling I know where MagicBagley stands on this.


Literally nothing has changed. This team is not "one piece away" as BKL is. Harden has already shown he's not going to get you a ring all by himself and that would've been the case in BOS too. This team is young and needs to mature and the cost of Brown and Smart would've gutted the long term prospects and still not netted you another banner. Remember, Harden only has a year left after this one, so if you didn't win it all this year then you'd be moving him for far less value next year.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#27 » by grindtime22 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:42 pm

BK_2020 wrote:These are the scenarios Houston was looking at:
1. Get Simmons and a couple of non-lotto picks, lose their own 2021 pick in a loaded draft, and treadmill for a few years then lose Simmons to FA.
2. Get expirings back and a bunch of Nets picks after Harden, KD, and Kyrie's contracts run out. Suck hard and have a top 5 pick in a loaded 2021 draft.
Why would any FO take the 1st option (or Jaylen)?


I would guess that their 2021 draft situation makes it a little less straight forward. It is only top 4 protected or it goes to OKC. With the newer odds, there is no way to guarantee keeping that pick, no matter how hard they suck. It doesn't matter if they finish 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. The odds are the same for them. There is a 52% chance of keeping the pick and a 48% chance of them swapping to the Miami pick.

Obviously, at this point, you want to bottom out in 2022 and 2023, before they end up back in the same situation in 2024 (top 4 protected). Going the picks route makes some sense, but the Oladipo thing kind of makes you wonder. I'm not a LeVert guy, but they probably could have flipped him for another pick instead of rerouting him for an expiring Oladipo.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#28 » by djFan71 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:48 pm

I was on the fence originally, but MB18 convinced me. And seeing him in BKN has only reaffirmed that. Huge caveat, of course, is if he was even minorly receptive to playing here. If not, then no.

But, with 2 years left and no outright hostility to playing here, I am confident we could have filled the gaps created by trading for him and been legit contenders. TPE, buyouts, picks left, etc.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#29 » by BK_2020 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:51 pm

Levert, it turned out, literally had a tumor, then he came back and putting up 16 ppg on sub .500 TS%, which is sadly not that far off from his career numbers. He's owed $17.5 mil and $18.5 mil for two more seasons.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#30 » by bucknersrevenge » Wed Apr 7, 2021 6:59 pm

MagicBagley18 wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:Wasn't sure if this question belonged in the post deadline thread or not but I kinda wanted to see where people were at on this question at this point. Earlier this year we had the possibility of acquiring James Harden for the "low-low" price of Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart and Danny did not pull the trigger. Most people applauded him not pulling the trigger.

Given how this season has gone; given how Smart's contract status is kinda looming in the very not-too-distant future, do you wish we had done it?

If you're someone who was against the deal before, now knowing what you know and seeing Harden play like an MVP-caliber player for the Nets, have you changed your mind? Or do you still not want Harden and/or think the cost is too prohibitive?

If you wanted to do it before has this season confirmed your earlier belief or do you feel like after the Fournier trade we're better but also this season has been so screwed up and if we got a full season of the Jay's/FournHub/Rob as the core with PP and maybe Romeo off the bench that this team could make some noise next year pending proper trades?

I have a feeling I know where MagicBagley stands on this.


What’s your take buddy? should have done it? Glad we didn’t? indifferent? Curious of your opinion now and refreshing me on what u thought then


IIRC, MB I had the fence lodged square up my rectumhole. And I kinda blame you for it tbh. Cuz at first glance I'm like "No way". Doesn't fit. How much better do we get? Etc., all that. But how often does an MVP come available? But your arguments were very persuasive. I think where I ended was, if Tatum signs off, you do it immediately.

I don't know that much has changed for me because in the end it still is about Tatum. I LOVE Jaylen. He's maybe my favorite player on this team for who he is off the court as well as on; even though he is incredibly maddening at times to watch. But to me, he will always be the cost of doing business when it comes to upgrading the talent on this roster. And for me Marcus has already priced himself out of our future and out of the value I'm willing to pay him to stay. So I'm comfortable with taking a shot IF I can talk to Tatum and get him on board with the idea that this is because I believe in him and want to show him that I'm all about putting a good team around him to make a run. HE. IS. MY. GUY. That said, there's nothing wrong with a 23 year old Tatum being a beta to James Harden on a team where Harden can maximize the talents of Rob Williams and Payton Pritchard.

Now there are risks of course. Would James really be happy here? I don't know. Would he stay here after the 2 years are up? I don't know. Would we even want him to at that point? Who knows. Another player also springs available at the same time his deal comes up though. His name is Bradley Beal. I really like what Utah has done surrounding a singular talent like Mitchell with veteran ballmovers who know how to play. They're one of the oldest teams in the league and that experience shows every night. If we were to surround Tatum, Rob, PP, and I'll throw in Romeo for good measure with veteran experience and shooting, where could we get to?
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#31 » by 31to6 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 7:19 pm

I’ll keep being on the record as not wanting Harden on the Celtics. I appreciate his talents, and he would’ve vaulted us into the top 5 or so contenders, but I simply don’t like his game, age, contract status, and am fine with muddling through this **** path instead, for now.

Most other MVP caliber players I would probably be more open to. Or guys like KAT, Beal, Sabonis or Brogdon, whatever. Even if it means trading JB who has been my favorite since he got here. But not Harden, Westbrook, or LeBron (since he’s our rival).

I also think it’s amazing how Harden wore a fat suit during warm ups in his last days in Houston.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#32 » by Tyakack » Wed Apr 7, 2021 7:49 pm

Ler's see........trade for a true legit mvp talent and a real shot to win a title for brown and smart or be a below 500 team.......hmmm.......decisions decisons.......It was a no brainer move that our GM didn't make. I'm done talking about it. Enjoy the trainwreck that is this team.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#33 » by Karate Diop » Wed Apr 7, 2021 7:57 pm

31to6 wrote:I’ll keep being on the record as not wanting Harden on the Celtics. I appreciate his talents, and he would’ve vaulted us into the top 5 or so contenders, but I simply don’t like his game, age, contract status, and am fine with muddling through this **** path instead, for now.

Most other MVP caliber players I would probably be more open to. Or guys like KAT, Beal, Sabonis or Brogdon, whatever. Even if it means trading JB who has been my favorite since he got here. But not Harden, Westbrook, or LeBron (since he’s our rival).

I also think it’s amazing how Harden wore a fat suit during warm ups in his last days in Houston.


Why would you be okay with Beal and not Harden when Harden is a vastly better player?
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#34 » by 31to6 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 8:17 pm

Karate Diop wrote:
31to6 wrote:I’ll keep being on the record as not wanting Harden on the Celtics. I appreciate his talents, and he would’ve vaulted us into the top 5 or so contenders, but I simply don’t like his game, age, contract status, and am fine with muddling through this **** path instead, for now.

Most other MVP caliber players I would probably be more open to. Or guys like KAT, Beal, Sabonis or Brogdon, whatever. Even if it means trading JB who has been my favorite since he got here. But not Harden, Westbrook, or LeBron (since he’s our rival).

I also think it’s amazing how Harden wore a fat suit during warm ups in his last days in Houston.


Why would you be okay with Beal and not Harden when Harden is a vastly better player?


I simply don’t like James Harden. I know that’s not rational and don’t have more to add to this discussion than that. I just want to keep saying it to “own” my take (from back then and from now).
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#35 » by Captain_Caveman » Wed Apr 7, 2021 8:55 pm

MagicBagley18 wrote:Gimme harden Tatum a 28.5 million dollar tpe and all my draft picks going into this years trade deadline instead of this **** sandwich.

There’s no juggernaut in the east if harden isn’t on the nets, the lakers have been hit by injury, Philly is good but not unbeatable and unproven in the postseason- same for milwaukee. If harden is on the team this deadline ainge would have been more aggressive we would have a definitive reason to go for it for 2 seasons minimum. Maybe we even move kemba for 2 rotational players and put the ball in hardens hands etc.

We may not be the hands down no brainer favorite but we would have had a legitimate shot- like a real shot to win the finals. We have none right now and by harden getting to the nets we’ve essentially been rendered to meaningless for 2 years or exactly half of Jaylens extension.

If we could have kept smart in the deal (doubtful but who knows) it was a no brainer.


Minus the TPE and BKN not adding Harden, a lot of that is hindsight. Also questionable is the ability to trade Kemba, especially at a moment where he looked spotty and his health was (and still is) a major question for us or anyone else. Assuming a deal was possible with Jaylen/Smart/picks and NO prospects included (doubtful IMO), our team would have looked like this heading into the deadline:

Kemba/Pritchard/Teague/Waters
Harden/Langford/Edwards/Javonte
Tatum/Nesmith/Semi
Theis/GWill
RWill/Thompson/Tacko

Ehh... not good enough. Kemba's health a huge question mark, his fit with Harden terrible defensively, and his trade value low. The use of the TPE hampered by the likelihood of having to give up future picks for Harden. Super young, terrible bench, and frontcourt is ghastly after Tatum in terms of actually contending this year. Very likely not keeping Theis in offseason, and already at the apron ($136m) in committed salaries next year for the other 10 players in bold above even without using the TPE or taxpayer MLE. At best, we add Aaron Gordon at the deadline for the TPE and even more picks?
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#36 » by soxfan2003 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 9:49 pm

From my perspective, as long as Kemba Walker is on the Celtics roster at a max salary, the Celtics have really low odds at a championship. Those odds are really approaching zero....

Ainge/Wyc would never have done it but the best way to optimize teams chances of winning a championship with a Harden trade was probably some 3-4 way trade involving Kemba Walker + Jayson Tatum for James Harden and at least 1 other good vet. Without hindsight at least, I wouldn't have done this myself and Wyc/Ainge wouldn't have seriously considered it but this was the sort of more realistic trade I was thinking of at the time....

This trade assumes Tatum has significantly more trade value than Harden and I believe at that time he did league wide. No GM would trade for Tatum thinking he was a surefire superstar and in fact I think most don't expect him to be a legit one but a GM may pay a high price for him believing he could be a good stable #2 for 8 years or so that is easy to build with and then a #3 player for a few years after that. Maybe not to Houston but that is where third teams can get involved if need be.

Maybe OKC unloads a handful of their best picks to Houston for Tatum including the picks from Houston that they held.

Celtics then have Smart, Harden, Brown, 1-2 good vets from Tatum trade, Theis, TT, Williams. And the team still has its picks and given the age of Harden, the Celtics picks 3-5 years into the future have decent value. They would all have to be traded to give this team a real chance to beat a healthy Lakers squad and to get past the other teams in EC.

Celtics medium to long terms would have a mediocre future and team would have to be rebuilt after 2-3 years with Harden. Brown/Smart are a lotto team.... It would be a huge risk that with a Harden injury could blow up in the Celtics faces but I believe that is what it would take to realistically have a really good shot to win a championship this year.

In any scenario for it to work with Harden, Kemba Walker had to be gone. In an important playoff game, Harden is playing 42 minutes at least and you want Kemba Walker on the floor with him for zero minutes.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#37 » by MagicBagley18 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:10 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:Gimme harden Tatum a 28.5 million dollar tpe and all my draft picks going into this years trade deadline instead of this **** sandwich.

There’s no juggernaut in the east if harden isn’t on the nets, the lakers have been hit by injury, Philly is good but not unbeatable and unproven in the postseason- same for milwaukee. If harden is on the team this deadline ainge would have been more aggressive we would have a definitive reason to go for it for 2 seasons minimum. Maybe we even move kemba for 2 rotational players and put the ball in hardens hands etc.

We may not be the hands down no brainer favorite but we would have had a legitimate shot- like a real shot to win the finals. We have none right now and by harden getting to the nets we’ve essentially been rendered to meaningless for 2 years or exactly half of Jaylens extension.

If we could have kept smart in the deal (doubtful but who knows) it was a no brainer.


Minus the TPE and BKN not adding Harden, a lot of that is hindsight. Also questionable is the ability to trade Kemba, especially at a moment where he looked spotty and his health was (and still is) a major question for us or anyone else. Assuming a deal was possible with Jaylen/Smart/picks and NO prospects included (doubtful IMO), our team would have looked like this heading into the deadline:

Kemba/Pritchard/Teague/Waters
Harden/Langford/Edwards/Javonte
Tatum/Nesmith/Semi
Theis/GWill
RWill/Thompson/Tacko

Ehh... not good enough. Kemba's health a huge question mark, his fit with Harden terrible defensively, and his trade value low. The use of the TPE hampered by the likelihood of having to give up future picks for Harden. Super young, terrible bench, and frontcourt is ghastly after Tatum in terms of actually contending this year. Very likely not keeping Theis in offseason, and already at the apron ($136m) in committed salaries next year for the other 10 players in bold above even without using the TPE or taxpayer MLE. At best, we add Aaron Gordon at the deadline for the TPE and even more picks?


Brk not adding harden tho is pretty significant- not only competition wise but also our trajectory the next 2 years. I don’t think we should just overlook that and you are right this is absolute hindsight (the whole thread) but I was pretty adamant I’d have done it then and still would have.

It’s certainly possible it wouldn’t be good enough but the minute the AD trade didn’t happen there really isn’t a 100% kill shot there with the exception of KD signing here with kyrie but again kyrie demolished that and the AD trade. The harden deal makes us better and if you bring in Gordon at the deadline id be happy.

Kemba
Harden
Tatum
Gordon
Rwill


Much much better than what we have. Harden would be throwing lobs to Gordon and time lord all day and despite what some here say (not you) harden does make people better even slobs like grant would be getting wide open corner 3’s ala tucker. The trickle down effect on the roster when Tatum becomes your 1b on offense I think is pretty significant from an overall team ceiling standpoint also.

Defensively you are correct kemba and harden is pretty bad but we are playing basketball in unprecedented offensive times like others have mentioned almost like the steroid era in a baseball and I think offensively we would have been potent enough to skate to the ECF rather easily and would get to the finals.

The bucks and lakers would be our hardest competition imo but the lakers may be decimated by injuries and I also think with a better record and harden we get buy out guys too. Again, lma and Blake or Drummond aren’t something to go nuts over but they’d definitely help and be more potent with harden drawing defenders.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#38 » by MagicBagley18 » Wed Apr 7, 2021 11:16 pm

Karate Diop wrote:
31to6 wrote:I’ll keep being on the record as not wanting Harden on the Celtics. I appreciate his talents, and he would’ve vaulted us into the top 5 or so contenders, but I simply don’t like his game, age, contract status, and am fine with muddling through this **** path instead, for now.

Most other MVP caliber players I would probably be more open to. Or guys like KAT, Beal, Sabonis or Brogdon, whatever. Even if it means trading JB who has been my favorite since he got here. But not Harden, Westbrook, or LeBron (since he’s our rival).

I also think it’s amazing how Harden wore a fat suit during warm ups in his last days in Houston.


Why would you be okay with Beal and not Harden when Harden is a vastly better player?


As someone who desperately wanted harden....the thinking behind some wanting beal and not harden even tho harden is much better is

1) he’s younger
2) he’s best friends and close with Tatum which means he’d probably extend
3) less high maintenance
4) plays a much friendlier style than harden in terms of being able to be off ball/cut and implemented into an offense etc

He’s absolutely not harden at all but you guys have the luxury of getting harden next to 2 of his besties and on his best behavior. Even myself who wanted harden knows that the Celtics may not get that version of james
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#39 » by jmr07019 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 12:13 am

After the Kyrie debacle I don’t think you should just glance over whether a player wants to be here or not. I don’t think harden wanted to come here and I don’t think he would have given us his best effort.

I also was saying at the time that trading for harden only made sense if we had faith in Kemba recovery. We won’t be winning a title with Kemba’s current level of play. Harden wouldn’t have changed that. I’m glad we didn’t trade for Harden.
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Re: James Harden redux 

Post#40 » by robbie84 » Thu Apr 8, 2021 1:45 am

No, I'm not risking Jaylen and Smart for an ageing Harden and 2 or 3 chances at deep play off runs-and that's IF we managed to keep Harden.

To me, the plan looks like we'll dump Kemba and on opening night next year go with:
Smart
Fournier
Brown
Tatum
Timelord

I like Harden but I'd rather have Brown and hope he gets better and better. Same with Smart.
Risk there too but seems like the smarter long term move and wider championship window if the injury gods have mercy on us.
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