ImageImageImage

Robert Williams, aka TimeLord

Moderators: bisme37, djFan71, Froob, snowman, sully00, ParticleMan, canman1971, The Comedian, Parliament10

MSTRJMES
Ballboy
Posts: 13
And1: 10
Joined: Mar 21, 2021
 

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#61 » by MSTRJMES » Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:06 am

Rob needs to shoot 500 top of the key threes a day….
Fencer reregistered
RealGM
Posts: 30,475
And1: 17,086
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#62 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:26 am

Hal14 wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:If Timelord had a jumper I would put him in conversation for top 7 Center in the league. (When Healthy)

But even without a jumper last season he was top 10 in the NBA in PER, Win Shares Per 48 Minutes, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rating, TS%, FG%, Rebounding %, Blocks % and BPM.

This season he's no. 1 in TS%, no. 1 in FG%, tied for 19th in PER, 22nd in rebounding %, no. 2 in blocks %, 17th in BPM, 11th in Win Shares, 8th in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes, No. 2 in offensive rating (excluding random dudes who have only played in like 1 game)


Gobert
Jokic
Towns
Ayton
Embiid
Bam
Vucevic
Allen

would all be consensus ranked ahead of Rob. Ditto whichever of Davis, Sabonis or Giannis -- if any -- you want to include in the discussion.

So he's not quite in the top 7 discussion yet. But he's close.
Banned temporarily for, among other sins, being "Extremely Deviant".
User avatar
Larry_Russell
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,667
And1: 1,117
Joined: Jun 23, 2021

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#63 » by Larry_Russell » Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:02 am

Fencer reregistered wrote:
Hal14 wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:If Timelord had a jumper I would put him in conversation for top 7 Center in the league. (When Healthy)

But even without a jumper last season he was top 10 in the NBA in PER, Win Shares Per 48 Minutes, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rating, TS%, FG%, Rebounding %, Blocks % and BPM.

This season he's no. 1 in TS%, no. 1 in FG%, tied for 19th in PER, 22nd in rebounding %, no. 2 in blocks %, 17th in BPM, 11th in Win Shares, 8th in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes, No. 2 in offensive rating (excluding random dudes who have only played in like 1 game)


Gobert
Jokic
Towns
Ayton
Embiid
Bam
Vucevic
Allen

would all be consensus ranked ahead of Rob. Ditto whichever of Davis, Sabonis or Giannis -- if any -- you want to include in the discussion.

So he's not quite in the top 7 discussion yet. But he's close.



Agreed.

Gets a consistant jumper and he moves up.
Tatum is a PF Horford is a C
Young guys Need time
Smart and Schroder= dumb
Isolation plays are NOT A VIABLE OFFENSE
Stop running your stars into the ground.
Hal14
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,375
And1: 3,899
Joined: Apr 05, 2019

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#64 » by Hal14 » Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:29 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
Hal14 wrote:But even without a jumper last season he was top 10 in the NBA in PER, Win Shares Per 48 Minutes, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rating, TS%, FG%, Rebounding %, Blocks % and BPM.

This season he's no. 1 in TS%, no. 1 in FG%, tied for 19th in PER, 22nd in rebounding %, no. 2 in blocks %, 17th in BPM, 11th in Win Shares, 8th in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes, No. 2 in offensive rating (excluding random dudes who have only played in like 1 game)


Gobert
Jokic
Towns
Ayton
Embiid
Bam
Vucevic
Allen

would all be consensus ranked ahead of Rob. Ditto whichever of Davis, Sabonis or Giannis -- if any -- you want to include in the discussion.

So he's not quite in the top 7 discussion yet. But he's close.



Agreed.

Gets a consistant jumper and he moves up.

Jarrett Allen has a consistent jumper?

What does Allen do better than Rob?

Rob is better than Allen IMO and he's right there in the same tier with Ayton and Vucevic (when healthy, of course). Ayton isn't much of a shooter - pretty good in the 10-12 FT range but beyond that very hit or miss. Vucevic can shoot but is awful defensively.

Edit: Allen vs Rob is actually pretty close. So far this season, Allen has a slightly higher BPM, VORP, rebounding %, Win Shares and PER. Rob has a higher net rating (+39 to +31), TS% and blocks %. Both have exact same assist %, however Allen's usage % is way higher than Rob's so clearly Rob is a better passer..

If you look at last season though, I think Rob was better in pretty much every category..
Hal14 wrote:if i'm Brad, I'm taking Begarin with this pick
User avatar
Larry_Russell
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,667
And1: 1,117
Joined: Jun 23, 2021

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#65 » by Larry_Russell » Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:45 pm

Hal14 wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
Gobert
Jokic
Towns
Ayton
Embiid
Bam
Vucevic
Allen

would all be consensus ranked ahead of Rob. Ditto whichever of Davis, Sabonis or Giannis -- if any -- you want to include in the discussion.

So he's not quite in the top 7 discussion yet. But he's close.



Agreed.

Gets a consistant jumper and he moves up.

Jarrett Allen has a consistent jumper?

What does Allen do better than Rob?

Rob is better than Allen IMO and he's right there in the same tier with Ayton and Vucevic (when healthy, of course). Ayton isn't much of a shooter - pretty good in the 10-12 FT range but beyond that very hit or miss. Vucevic can shoot but is awful defensively.


Embiid
Jokic
Kat
Gobert
Bam

All clearly ahead of Rob

I have:
Allen 17ppg, 11rpg, 2apg, 1spg, 2bpg
Vooch 16ppg, 11.5rpg, 3.5apg, 1spg, 1bpg
Ayton 17ppg, 11rpg, 1.5apg, 1spg, 1bpg
As ahead of Timelord as well

Arguable
Jonas - not as good a defender, far superior offensively
KP - when the lone star
Davis - When playing center
Sabonis - When playing center
Tatum is a PF Horford is a C
Young guys Need time
Smart and Schroder= dumb
Isolation plays are NOT A VIABLE OFFENSE
Stop running your stars into the ground.
playa-hater
Head Coach
Posts: 6,618
And1: 6,595
Joined: Aug 29, 2020
 

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#66 » by playa-hater » Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:52 pm

Hal14 wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:
Fencer reregistered wrote:
Gobert
Jokic
Towns
Ayton
Embiid
Bam
Vucevic
Allen

would all be consensus ranked ahead of Rob. Ditto whichever of Davis, Sabonis or Giannis -- if any -- you want to include in the discussion.

So he's not quite in the top 7 discussion yet. But he's close.





Agreed.

Gets a consistant jumper and he moves up.

Jarrett Allen has a consistent jumper?

What does Allen do better than Rob?

Rob is better than Allen IMO and he's right there in the same tier with Ayton and Vucevic (when healthy, of course). Ayton isn't much of a shooter - pretty good in the 10-12 FT range but beyond that very hit or miss. Vucevic can shoot but is awful defensively.

Edit: Allen vs Rob is actually pretty close. So far this season, Allen has a slightly higher BPM, VORP, rebounding %, Win Shares and PER. Rob has a higher net rating (+39 to +31), TS% and blocks %. Both have exact same assist %, however Allen's usage % is way higher than Rob's so clearly Rob is a better passer..

If you look at last season though, I think Rob was better in pretty much every category..


definitely agree with post.

I take Rob > Allen and Vuc. Vuc is a better scorer/shooter, but what RW does for Boston is far more valuable than what Vuc would do for us. Vuc would probably spread the court which would help, but RW "vertical spacing is criminally underrated. and his interior and sometimes perimeter shot-blocking >>> Vuc and Allen. A healthy consistent RW = to Bam as well. What jumper does Bam have??
SHOOTERS, SHOOTERS, SHOOTERS
playa-hater
Head Coach
Posts: 6,618
And1: 6,595
Joined: Aug 29, 2020
 

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#67 » by playa-hater » Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:57 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:
Hal14 wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:

Agreed.

Gets a consistant jumper and he moves up.

Jarrett Allen has a consistent jumper?

What does Allen do better than Rob?

Rob is better than Allen IMO and he's right there in the same tier with Ayton and Vucevic (when healthy, of course). Ayton isn't much of a shooter - pretty good in the 10-12 FT range but beyond that very hit or miss. Vucevic can shoot but is awful defensively.


Embiid
Jokic
Kat
Gobert

Bam

All clearly ahead of Rob

I have:
Allen 17ppg, 11rpg, 2apg, 1spg, 2bpg
Vooch 16ppg, 11.5rpg, 3.5apg, 1spg, 1bpg
Ayton 17ppg, 11rpg, 1.5apg, 1spg, 1bpg
As ahead of Timelord as well


Arguable
Jonas - not as good a defender, far superior offensively
KP - when the lone star
Davis - When playing center
Sabonis - When playing center


the black bold are the only ones I have as "clear ahead" (plus I have Sabonis) (does Davis count?)

the red bold is more subjective and stats don't mean as much as each player has a different role and supporting cast.
SHOOTERS, SHOOTERS, SHOOTERS
User avatar
Larry_Russell
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,667
And1: 1,117
Joined: Jun 23, 2021

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#68 » by Larry_Russell » Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:57 pm

playa-hater wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:
Hal14 wrote:Jarrett Allen has a consistent jumper?

What does Allen do better than Rob?

Rob is better than Allen IMO and he's right there in the same tier with Ayton and Vucevic (when healthy, of course). Ayton isn't much of a shooter - pretty good in the 10-12 FT range but beyond that very hit or miss. Vucevic can shoot but is awful defensively.


Embiid
Jokic
Kat
Gobert

Bam

All clearly ahead of Rob

I have:
Allen 17ppg, 11rpg, 2apg, 1spg, 2bpg
Vooch 16ppg, 11.5rpg, 3.5apg, 1spg, 1bpg
Ayton 17ppg, 11rpg, 1.5apg, 1spg, 1bpg
As ahead of Timelord as well


Arguable
Jonas - not as good a defender, far superior offensively
KP - when the lone star
Davis - When playing center
Sabonis - When playing center


the black bold are the only ones I have as "clear ahead" (plus I have Sabonis) (does Davis count?)

the red bold is more subjective and stats don't mean as much as each player has a different role and supporting cast.



RE: The Red

I agree

I have them ahead based on health at this point in time, Rob has yet to be proven to be as healthy as those guys are. Looking good so far this year though
Tatum is a PF Horford is a C
Young guys Need time
Smart and Schroder= dumb
Isolation plays are NOT A VIABLE OFFENSE
Stop running your stars into the ground.
User avatar
zoyathedestroya
RealGM
Posts: 16,605
And1: 40,083
Joined: Nov 05, 2017

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#69 » by zoyathedestroya » Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:12 am

Per BBRef, Robert Williams is currently the career leader in franchise history in the following categories:
• True Shooting Percentage
• Block Percentage
• Offensive Rating
• Win Shares per 48 Minutes
• Defensive Box Plus/Minus

He's also 2nd in Offensive Rebounding Percentage, 2nd in Blocks per Game, 4th in PER, 4th in Total Rebounding Percentage, 5th in Box Plus/Minus.

Image
User avatar
OBisHalJordan
Rookie
Posts: 1,117
And1: 842
Joined: Aug 22, 2008
Location: Portland, ME

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#70 » by OBisHalJordan » Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:10 pm

Is Robert Williams III related to this Robert Williams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Williams

Since he's Robert Williams III, I wondered if the civil rights leader was his grandfather
User avatar
Parliament10
Forum Mod - Celtics
Forum Mod - Celtics
Posts: 35,768
And1: 39,227
Joined: Jul 24, 2009
       

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#71 » by Parliament10 » Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:03 pm

OBisHalJordan wrote:Is Robert Williams III related to this Robert Williams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Williams

Since he's Robert Williams III, I wondered if the civil rights leader was his grandfather

I doubt it. Robert Franklin Williams, doesn't appear to be related to Robert Lee Williams, III.
"It's not about me, it's about the Team."
~ Marcus Smart
Andrew McCeltic
RealGM
Posts: 20,634
And1: 6,945
Joined: Jun 18, 2004
 

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#72 » by Andrew McCeltic » Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:00 pm

Bumping this after the Chicago game
Andrew McCeltic
RealGM
Posts: 20,634
And1: 6,945
Joined: Jun 18, 2004
 

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#73 » by Andrew McCeltic » Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:02 pm

His defensive rebounding percentage is down, from 20 last year to 17 now - which is closer to his first two seasons. But big drop in defensive rp from 25.6 to 20..
Andrew McCeltic
RealGM
Posts: 20,634
And1: 6,945
Joined: Jun 18, 2004
 

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#74 » by Andrew McCeltic » Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:09 pm

Having a high block percentage with that wingspan and vertical goes a long way, but block percentage is partly a counting stat. He's raising his game as a general defensive presence-

Forsberg January 12, after the Pacers win ( https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/can-celtics-robert-williams-muscle-his-way-all-defense-conversation ) :

It was the best of a solid stretch for Williams. In the six games since Celtics coach Ime Udoka challenged Williams to be more disciplined after a rough outing in Minnesota, Williams has limited opponents to 38.3 percent shooting (36 of 94 overall). That’s a staggering 8.9 percent lower than his opponent’s expected field goal percentage over that span.

“He’s an anchor back there,” Udoka told NBC Sports Boston. “Obviously, rim protects well but he also is guarding on the perimeter, doing a lot of different things. He’s starting to read the game better, offensively and defensively. His growth is crucial for us. But you’re starting to see steps in the consistency, that's the thing I love about him.”


Jaylen talked him up for All-Defense.. if he gets elite, he goes up in the center rankings. Top 7? I'd put him around 10 for now, but it gets grey after the top 4-5 guys.
Smart2Nesmith43
Ballboy
Posts: 42
And1: 130
Joined: Nov 06, 2021
 

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#75 » by Smart2Nesmith43 » Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:41 am

Andrew McCeltic wrote:Having a high block percentage with that wingspan and vertical goes a long way, but block percentage is partly a counting stat. He's raising his game as a general defensive presence-

By definition block percentage is a rate stat not a counting one. It's also the lowest of his career by far (so is his steal %) because like you said he plays much more solid positional defense instead of chasing the highlight play.

Andrew McCeltic wrote:His defensive rebounding percentage is down, from 20 last year to 17 now - which is closer to his first two seasons. But big drop in defensive rp from 25.6 to 20..

Generally individual rebounding percentage (especially on the defensive end) are a very poor way to assess someone's rebounding ability. There's so much that go into that beyond just the player's ability (who are the other guys besides him in the lineup, how often is he boxing out versus going after the rebound, etc.). Like I'm absolutely certain that Drummond's defensive rebound percentage blows Adams' out of the water. Yet when Adams is on the floor, year after year, his team rates as both the best offensive and defensive rebounding team in the league whereas Drummond has 6 seasons out of 12 where his team rebounded better defensively with him off the floor. When people loook at Drummond and use him as proof that the NBA is not valuing rebounding anymore it's completely false. Despite the gaudy individual totals, he has never moved the needle in term of team success when it comes to securing opponent's misses (he is elite at offensive rebounding I'll give him that).

I really haven't seen anything to suggest Robert Williams is worse at defensive rebounding this year. Just he is often playing with Smart as his smallest teammate this year and last year we played super small (remember the Pritchard at the 3 lineups we saw at times, I'm really trying not to) so it makes sense that the rest of the team is pitching in more. For what it's worth, according to cleaning the glass, the team gives up 1.8% offensive rebounds more when he's on the floor. That's not a great look except when you see how he is trending (gave up 3.4% more last year and a truly atrocious, like bottom percentile in the league bad, during his first two seasons 8.5% and 6.4% more during his first two years).

Honestly, it might not happen as fast as we'd like but Robert Williams keeps getting better at pretty much everything every year. He is quite literally avering career high across the board in counting stats (points, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, total rebounds, assists, steals, blocks) which is to be expected with the increased minutes. Still as these Celtics love to remind us, there's a big difference between expectations and reality.

Looking at efficiency stats :
Career best FG% (74%)
Career best FT% (68%)
Tied career best 3PT FG% (at 0% this one is just for the joke)
Career best eFG% (74%)
Career best TS% (75%)

Defensively it's the first year where he's cut down on the positional mistakes to the point that he's truly consistently good on that end. He's also gone from being constantly in foul trouble to having one of the lowest foul rate among centers. I wish the Celtics would use his playmaking more and would encourage him to try more midrange shots. I know it's not the most analytics friendly shot but if teams had to guard him 10-15 feet from the basket he would get so many more opportunities to slip behind the opposing center and lobs at the rim. It would also unlock his dribble handoffs. Regardless he's well on his way to becoming a special player.

I still can't believe Stevens extended him for less money than Wendell Carter got (and also he has a lower average annual value than Gafford for instance).
Andrew McCeltic
RealGM
Posts: 20,634
And1: 6,945
Joined: Jun 18, 2004
 

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#76 » by Andrew McCeltic » Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:11 am

Rate stat, sorry, that was sloppy. I meant that gaudy shot blocking doesn't always mean you're having a large net impact or executing well.

Rob's giving away offensive rebounds is likely connected to highlight-chasing, too. I know the difference between rebounding percentage and impact, I just hadn't heard or picked up on anything about Rob's tick down. Lineup size makes sense.

I don't understand why the offense doesn't flow through him more, either. I don't have 20/20 vision watching games, is it a matter of what the defense is giving him, how much his teammates are moving off-ball to receive passes, inconsistency on his part, Ime undervaluing his facilitating, players not getting him the ball to work? Or do defenses sag off him more than usual because he can't shoot *and* he's a lob threat? He could average 4-5 assists, easy.
darrendaye
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 13,764
And1: 5,822
Joined: May 06, 2001
Location: Pollard Powered, in Yonkers, NY
     

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#77 » by darrendaye » Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:42 am

Smart2Nesmith43 wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:Having a high block percentage with that wingspan and vertical goes a long way, but block percentage is partly a counting stat. He's raising his game as a general defensive presence-

By definition block percentage is a rate stat not a counting one. It's also the lowest of his career by far (so is his steal %) because like you said he plays much more solid positional defense instead of chasing the highlight play.

Andrew McCeltic wrote:His defensive rebounding percentage is down, from 20 last year to 17 now - which is closer to his first two seasons. But big drop in defensive rp from 25.6 to 20..

Generally individual rebounding percentage (especially on the defensive end) are a very poor way to assess someone's rebounding ability. There's so much that go into that beyond just the player's ability (who are the other guys besides him in the lineup, how often is he boxing out versus going after the rebound, etc.). Like I'm absolutely certain that Drummond's defensive rebound percentage blows Adams' out of the water. Yet when Adams is on the floor, year after year, his team rates as both the best offensive and defensive rebounding team in the league whereas Drummond has 6 seasons out of 12 where his team rebounded better defensively with him off the floor. When people loook at Drummond and use him as proof that the NBA is not valuing rebounding anymore it's completely false. Despite the gaudy individual totals, he has never moved the needle in term of team success when it comes to securing opponent's misses (he is elite at offensive rebounding I'll give him that).

I really haven't seen anything to suggest Robert Williams is worse at defensive rebounding this year. Just he is often playing with Smart as his smallest teammate this year and last year we played super small (remember the Pritchard at the 3 lineups we saw at times, I'm really trying not to) so it makes sense that the rest of the team is pitching in more. For what it's worth, according to cleaning the glass, the team gives up 1.8% offensive rebounds more when he's on the floor. That's not a great look except when you see how he is trending (gave up 3.4% more last year and a truly atrocious, like bottom percentile in the league bad, during his first two seasons 8.5% and 6.4% more during his first two years).

Honestly, it might not happen as fast as we'd like but Robert Williams keeps getting better at pretty much everything every year. He is quite literally avering career high across the board in counting stats (points, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, total rebounds, assists, steals, blocks) which is to be expected with the increased minutes. Still as these Celtics love to remind us, there's a big difference between expectations and reality.

Looking at efficiency stats :
Career best FG% (74%)
Career best FT% (68%)
Tied career best 3PT FG% (at 0% this one is just for the joke)
Career best eFG% (74%)
Career best TS% (75%)

Defensively it's the first year where he's cut down on the positional mistakes to the point that he's truly consistently good on that end. He's also gone from being constantly in foul trouble to having one of the lowest foul rate among centers. I wish the Celtics would use his playmaking more and would encourage him to try more midrange shots. I know it's not the most analytics friendly shot but if teams had to guard him 10-15 feet from the basket he would get so many more opportunities to slip behind the opposing center and lobs at the rim. It would also unlock his dribble handoffs. Regardless he's well on his way to becoming a special player.

I still can't believe Stevens extended him for less money than Wendell Carter got (and also he has a lower average annual value than Gafford for instance).


Great post. Rob is yielding defensive rebounds a night to Tatum, I don't have numbers just observation, but probably one a night on average. Also guarding more on the perimeter with Horford out there likely accounts for some of it too. I'm a stickler, so I will point out that Rob does not play with extended arms as much as he did in previous seasons and it costs him steal opportunities. But he's still a solid producer there for a big as well, just not as elite as I had anticipated. But his increased work and effort level overall makes this somewhat understandable. Seems the shoot Rob shoot clan is growing.
Of the things I like about Robert Williams, my favorite thing is that he spreads his arms when he retreats on defense.
Theocy
Rookie
Posts: 1,170
And1: 1,018
Joined: Aug 27, 2017
 

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#78 » by Theocy » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:55 am

I really hope they get him to train and better his mid range game. If they don’t he’ll be this athletic freak who will probably peak between the ages of 26 and 28. A better PG who actively tries to get him the ball might push his numbers to something like 16 and 10 next year.
Joshyjess
Veteran
Posts: 2,615
And1: 4,610
Joined: Jun 20, 2018
         

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#79 » by Joshyjess » Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:49 pm

One thing stats don't show is how many shots are altered or even not taken because of RW's presence. Yes, his shot blocking numbers might be down a bit, but a lot of that is explained by the fact that opposing players have learned NOT to take shots when he's near them. Watching him play, it's amazing how many guys run into the paint with an obvious goal of taking a shot, only to quickly run back out, or pass the ball away when they see Rob standing there waiting for them.
His reputation is growing every game, and it's clear to see how many players just don't even bother taking shots against him any more. This is going to greatly alter his number of blocks, but it shouldn't be held against him.
User avatar
zoyathedestroya
RealGM
Posts: 16,605
And1: 40,083
Joined: Nov 05, 2017

Re: Robert Williams, aka TimeLord 

Post#80 » by zoyathedestroya » Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:09 pm

Congrats to Robert and his partner for the birth of their second child.

Return to Boston Celtics