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OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread.

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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#21 » by Andrew McCeltic » Tue Jun 8, 2021 6:02 pm

My only reservation is about the idea that black players would prefer a black coach - not because it’s not true that a black man or woman would relate better to the players, but because there seems to be a cultural shift which underlines differences and entrenches a kind of psychological segregation between people of different ethnicities. Maybe it’s an acknowledgment of what already exists, but I always thought of it as something we were trying to progress beyond. To see race recede in importance until it was as trivially impactful as eye color.. If someone suggested that Luka Doncic or Porzingis would be better off with Rick Carlisle’s successor being white, it would be outrageous. It’s just something I struggle to wrap my head around and accede to.
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#22 » by GoGreen » Tue Jun 8, 2021 6:57 pm

I think that as fate has it, the best candidates for the job happen to be black, so the Cs luck out there.

Thing that bothers me is I don't think this thread would exist if that dude didn't throw the water bottle. When Ky opened his big mouth to simply take a shot at the city, JB came out and pretty much called out his bs. The Kyrie stuff was mixed and people kind of saw through his pettynes. That bottle thrower is what really got things going imo. And is that dude racist? Or just some stupid, drunk kid?

Look, Boston DOES have a lot of work to do, especially in regards to how segregated things are. Most back families live in specific towns. The history of Boston PD and how they treat the homeless. The ugly history and how it still exists in those townie areas among the older white scumbags who just casually throw the N word around.

I just really don't like how the media is handling this, though. Y'all want a real discussion, or to just be outraged because you can be? It just feels like piling on, and not genuine concern for the cities black residents. Like... what, a black coach is going to solve everything? Its a symbolic gesture that's not going to solve anything. It all just feels so fake and manufactured. Jaylen brought up REAL sh*t. Why aren't they addressing that?
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#23 » by captain green » Tue Jun 8, 2021 7:07 pm

Portrayed or not some sick racist **** in Bill's bed granted the the era but you can find snippets of this crap to recent to back in that time .all racists must be dealt with this is 2021 I was promised hover crafts instead we got nazis back and damn it my Gramps didn't fights those ass hats just to see as a ghost rip nazis storming the white house. I'm sick of proud boys, qanon, and any other ignorant people having a platform, in germany it's a crime to have a nazi symbols how about the good ole u. s. of a follow suit. Can't be a pimp and a prostitute too statue of liberty on one end and added wanting a wall on the other. Unfortunately place like utah boston and minnesota have racists probably every state but those that have teams in high racist area need to screen fans racist don't deserve to see nba games .
We always talk about there’s A-to-Z… really, there’s A-to-G or -E,’” Ainge told Celtics.com of a team’s typical offseason agenda. “This year, there’s definitely A-to-Z.” : danny ainge
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#24 » by SuperDeluxe » Tue Jun 8, 2021 7:19 pm

GoGreen wrote:Thing that bothers me is I don't think this thread would exist if that dude didn't throw the water bottle.

I disagree. If Kyrie Irving hadn't basically announced that any animosity towards him in Boston would be due to racism (which is beyond laughable considering the way he treated us), then the bottle dude would've been labelled an idiot (and not the embodiment of the racism of a whole city).

So IMHO we have to thank Kyrie Irving for this particular conversation on a Celtics forum.

As for conversations about racism in general, they should always be welcome until it's no longer a topic. We just don't need an arsehole, a coward, to tell us when to have those conversations, especially if he does it so no one remembers why people in a whole city really dislike him. He threw the smoke bomb, then he skipped out of town whistling.
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#25 » by nic4747 » Tue Jun 8, 2021 7:25 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:My only reservation is about the idea that black players would prefer a black coach - not because it’s not true that a black man or woman would relate better to the players, but because there seems to be a cultural shift which underlines differences and entrenches a kind of psychological segregation between people of different ethnicities. Maybe it’s an acknowledgment of what already exists, but I always thought of it as something we were trying to progress beyond. To see race recede in importance until it was as trivially impactful as eye color.. If someone suggested that Luka Doncic or Porzingis would be better off with Rick Carlisle’s successor being white, it would be outrageous. It’s just something I struggle to wrap my head around and accede to.


I'm not sure that it's the black players would prefer a black coach per se (i.e. not directly about skin color). It's more about having things in common and alignment on things you are passionate about. For example, I do think that being black is a slightly different experience in this country than being white, so two black man can bond over that shared experience. Similarly, a black person is more likely to understand and be passionate about the social justice issues that black people face, and so that person can bond with Jaylen Brown and others over that shared passion. So I think having a black coach can help strengthen that player / coach bond. And I do think it's helpful to have black representation in upper management. So for example if you had a black GM who had a bond with the players, maybe having a black head coach isn't as advantageous.

I understand the concerns around "segregation" of sorts, and it is a double standard because you can't say the same thing on the white side. And in a perfect world we would all be able to move past race and these types of discussions would be unnecessary. Hopefully someday we get there. But in today's world, I think there is consensus that black people are at a general disadvantage relative to other races. Now, given how social media and the regular media tend to sensationalize everything I think you could argue that the extent of the disadvantage is in some cases exaggerated. But I think the disadvantage does exist and I don't see how to move forward and rectify some of these things without having these types of conversations. Like, sometimes you have to take a step back to take two steps forward.
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#26 » by celtics543 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 2:25 pm

I appreciate that this topic was started and I hope to submit a positive addition to it as the conversation continues.

Humans as a species have gotten so far because we are excellent at pattern recognition. Early humans picked up on patterns that told them when bad weather was coming, which berries were edible and which were poisonous, which animals they could tame and which they couldn't, and what the movement of the stars could tell them about upcoming events. So as a species we're genetically hard wired to find patterns and then use them to our advantage. The problem is that we look for the most simple patterns, in this case race but it could also be gender, sex, religion etc, and we use them to make overarching comments about large groups of people.

Unfortunately race is a pattern that we have assigned traits to even though most know that skin color doesn't define any characteristics about a person. The topic of assimilation is brought up sometimes and I find that interesting because the traits people generally follow that up with aren't race specific, they're simply the stereotypes that were long ago placed on certain races.

In my personal life, I applied for a promotion last year and a friend on the interview committee called me after my interview and said that I had no chance to get the job because the company was dead-set on hiring a woman and in fact out of the 28 candidates for the job I was the only male that was interviewed and that was because I already worked there. I was livid because I had been passed over based on being a male. Because the rest of the administrative team I was applying for were white males I didn't get a fair shot. I can understand the optics but it's also not fair to say that because I'm a white male I have the same outlook and same traits as the other white males on the team. (For those interested the woman they hired is excellent and has done a far better job than I would have done, it just rubbed me the wrong way that I wasn't given a fair chance).

If we continue to base things like hiring practices or admissions to college or anything like that on race, religion, gender, sexuality, or anything other than merit we can never move past our issues. We need to stop using stereotypes as a reason to be angry. We need to stop claiming assimilation when it's in regards to the way people dress or how educated they are or what music they listen to. You can't have a basketball team feel like they need to hire a coach of a certain race because of the racist history of the town they play in. I don't believe there's a racist bone in Brad Steven's body. I don't believe there's a racist bone in Doc River's body. Both are excellent coaches. If we were interviewing both of them today Brad would have no shot at all because to hire a white coach is being perceived as a racist hire. I love what Jaylen Brown is fighting for. Equality is important. Equality doesn't happen by demonizing an entire race of people. Equal pay for equal work doesn't happen by demonizing an entire gender. LGBTQ rights don't happen by demonizing an entire group based on sexuality or gender identity. These things happen when everyone works together to make sure they happen and you eliminate the bad apples that are hurting the process.

I'm a straight while male and I've never thought of anyone being "beneath" me on some kind of social hierarchy. I've also never thought of anyone being above me. Our goal should be to pull up those who feel they're beneath and to take down the people who feel they're above others. I think we're handling this incorrectly right now. The longer we keep focusing on race, gender identity, sexuality, or religion, the longer we're going to be divided. You'll know the day has finally come that we've gotten over this when forms no longer ask for race, sexuality, gender, or religion. When those things truly don't matter, no one will ask you to identify yourself. We will have moved on to different patterns that we can judge more accurately and fairly on. Until then though, the hate seems to just keep building and the current path we're on just seems to be dividing us even more.
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#27 » by greenroom31 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 3:18 pm

Diversity is a positive attribute of a team. There is no shortage of studies and data to support this statement across a variety of industries. Below please see some links to studies and articles that demonstrate it to be factually true and not just an opinion.

The point is that diversity actually serves an end goal unto itself -- it is inherently valuable. Having a team that is diverse in race, gender, life experience, problem solving, geography, academic background, etc. leads to better outcomes as shown in the studies below.

Accordingly, prioritizing increased diversity when hiring for a position has intrinsic value. This means that attributing value to whether or not a candidate increases diversity within an organization is in fact totally fair, rational and defensible just as attributing value to a candidate's technical skill, relevant experience, or growth potential would be.

I doubt someone would say "It's not fair that the other candidate got the job due to the fact that they are more skilled and experienced than I am", since those are generally accepted factors in determining who to hire. For the same reasons, someone shouldn't say "It's not fair that the other candidate got the job due to the fact that they increase the diversity of the team" since that should also be a generally accepted factor in determining who to hire, since diversity is proven to improve the performance of a team.

https://blog.capterra.com/7-studies-that-prove-the-value-of-diversity-in-the-workplace/
https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/great-teams-diversity/
https://hbr.org/2016/09/diverse-teams-feel-less-comfortable-and-thats-why-they-perform-better
https://www.gartner.com/smarterwithgartner/diversity-and-inclusion-build-high-performance-teams/
https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sianbeilock/2019/04/04/how-diversity-leads-to-better-outcomes/?sh=1269beee65ce
https://onlinemasters.ohio.edu/blog/how-does-diversity-affect-the-performance-of-sports-teams/
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#28 » by bucknersrevenge » Wed Jun 9, 2021 5:34 pm

celtics543 wrote:I appreciate that this topic was started and I hope to submit a positive addition to it as the conversation continues.

Humans as a species have gotten so far because we are excellent at pattern recognition. Early humans picked up on patterns that told them when bad weather was coming, which berries were edible and which were poisonous, which animals they could tame and which they couldn't, and what the movement of the stars could tell them about upcoming events. So as a species we're genetically hard wired to find patterns and then use them to our advantage. The problem is that we look for the most simple patterns, in this case race but it could also be gender, sex, religion etc, and we use them to make overarching comments about large groups of people.

Unfortunately race is a pattern that we have assigned traits to even though most know that skin color doesn't define any characteristics about a person. The topic of assimilation is brought up sometimes and I find that interesting because the traits people generally follow that up with aren't race specific, they're simply the stereotypes that were long ago placed on certain races.

In my personal life, I applied for a promotion last year and a friend on the interview committee called me after my interview and said that I had no chance to get the job because the company was dead-set on hiring a woman and in fact out of the 28 candidates for the job I was the only male that was interviewed and that was because I already worked there. I was livid because I had been passed over based on being a male. Because the rest of the administrative team I was applying for were white males I didn't get a fair shot. I can understand the optics but it's also not fair to say that because I'm a white male I have the same outlook and same traits as the other white males on the team. (For those interested the woman they hired is excellent and has done a far better job than I would have done, it just rubbed me the wrong way that I wasn't given a fair chance).

If we continue to base things like hiring practices or admissions to college or anything like that on race, religion, gender, sexuality, or anything other than merit we can never move past our issues. We need to stop using stereotypes as a reason to be angry. We need to stop claiming assimilation when it's in regards to the way people dress or how educated they are or what music they listen to. You can't have a basketball team feel like they need to hire a coach of a certain race because of the racist history of the town they play in. I don't believe there's a racist bone in Brad Steven's body. I don't believe there's a racist bone in Doc River's body. Both are excellent coaches. If we were interviewing both of them today Brad would have no shot at all because to hire a white coach is being perceived as a racist hire. I love what Jaylen Brown is fighting for. Equality is important. Equality doesn't happen by demonizing an entire race of people. Equal pay for equal work doesn't happen by demonizing an entire gender. LGBTQ rights don't happen by demonizing an entire group based on sexuality or gender identity. These things happen when everyone works together to make sure they happen and you eliminate the bad apples that are hurting the process.

I'm a straight while male and I've never thought of anyone being "beneath" me on some kind of social hierarchy. I've also never thought of anyone being above me. Our goal should be to pull up those who feel they're beneath and to take down the people who feel they're above others. I think we're handling this incorrectly right now. The longer we keep focusing on race, gender identity, sexuality, or religion, the longer we're going to be divided. You'll know the day has finally come that we've gotten over this when forms no longer ask for race, sexuality, gender, or religion. When those things truly don't matter, no one will ask you to identify yourself. We will have moved on to different patterns that we can judge more accurately and fairly on. Until then though, the hate seems to just keep building and the current path we're on just seems to be dividing us even more.


Jaylen Brown isn't actually fighting for equality. He's fighting for EQUITY. And there's a big difference. "Equality" doesn't take into account the realities of systemic, institutionalized oppression through policy. Not just rhetoric, but actual policy and practice. Equity chooses to see those things you would have us disregard and appreciate them and make space for them. And again, I cannot stress this enough. as a White male, if you choose not to see race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., you're choosing to turn a blind eye to the systems that continue to marginalize, oppress, and invalidate based on those same characteristics through policy and practice.
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#29 » by nic4747 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 6:43 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:Jaylen Brown isn't actually fighting for equality. He's fighting for EQUITY. And there's a big difference. "Equality" doesn't take into account the realities of systemic, institutionalized oppression through policy. Not just rhetoric, but actual policy and practice. Equity chooses to see those things you would have us disregard and appreciate them and make space for them. And again, I cannot stress this enough. as a White male, if you choose not to see race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., you're choosing to turn a blind eye to the systems that continue to marginalize, oppress, and invalidate based on those same characteristics through policy and practice.


That's a good point. I always thought the difference between equality and equity was illustrated well in this cartoon (the "reality" section is obviously the joke part).

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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#30 » by Andrew McCeltic » Wed Jun 9, 2021 6:55 pm

So which groups are the short kid who can’t see over the fence? Isn’t that cartoon offensively implying differences in innate ability or characteristics?
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#31 » by Andrew McCeltic » Wed Jun 9, 2021 7:07 pm

From the Wharton link:

Page: Right. Identity diversity is a difference in who we are. Cognitive diversity is the difference in how we think. If you’re Apple, if you’re Google, if you’re Amazon, the question is, does identity diversity matter? The evidence shows it matters in four ways. The first is syllogism. If you and I come from different identify groups, we have different knowledge bases. You search different things on the web than I search. We read different books. We have different interests.


Is this really true in a simple way? It seems like stereotyping, and implies that diversity of interest and opinion correlates strongly with diversity of identity.
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#32 » by Shak_Celts » Wed Jun 9, 2021 8:09 pm

celtics543 wrote:I appreciate that this topic was started and I hope to submit a positive addition to it as the conversation continues.

Humans as a species have gotten so far because we are excellent at pattern recognition. Early humans picked up on patterns that told them when bad weather was coming, which berries were edible and which were poisonous, which animals they could tame and which they couldn't, and what the movement of the stars could tell them about upcoming events. So as a species we're genetically hard wired to find patterns and then use them to our advantage. The problem is that we look for the most simple patterns, in this case race but it could also be gender, sex, religion etc, and we use them to make overarching comments about large groups of people.

Unfortunately race is a pattern that we have assigned traits to even though most know that skin color doesn't define any characteristics about a person. The topic of assimilation is brought up sometimes and I find that interesting because the traits people generally follow that up with aren't race specific, they're simply the stereotypes that were long ago placed on certain races.

In my personal life, I applied for a promotion last year and a friend on the interview committee called me after my interview and said that I had no chance to get the job because the company was dead-set on hiring a woman and in fact out of the 28 candidates for the job I was the only male that was interviewed and that was because I already worked there. I was livid because I had been passed over based on being a male. Because the rest of the administrative team I was applying for were white males I didn't get a fair shot. I can understand the optics but it's also not fair to say that because I'm a white male I have the same outlook and same traits as the other white males on the team. (For those interested the woman they hired is excellent and has done a far better job than I would have done, it just rubbed me the wrong way that I wasn't given a fair chance).

If we continue to base things like hiring practices or admissions to college or anything like that on race, religion, gender, sexuality, or anything other than merit we can never move past our issues. We need to stop using stereotypes as a reason to be angry. We need to stop claiming assimilation when it's in regards to the way people dress or how educated they are or what music they listen to. You can't have a basketball team feel like they need to hire a coach of a certain race because of the racist history of the town they play in. I don't believe there's a racist bone in Brad Steven's body. I don't believe there's a racist bone in Doc River's body. Both are excellent coaches. If we were interviewing both of them today Brad would have no shot at all because to hire a white coach is being perceived as a racist hire. I love what Jaylen Brown is fighting for. Equality is important. Equality doesn't happen by demonizing an entire race of people. Equal pay for equal work doesn't happen by demonizing an entire gender. LGBTQ rights don't happen by demonizing an entire group based on sexuality or gender identity. These things happen when everyone works together to make sure they happen and you eliminate the bad apples that are hurting the process.

I'm a straight while male and I've never thought of anyone being "beneath" me on some kind of social hierarchy. I've also never thought of anyone being above me. Our goal should be to pull up those who feel they're beneath and to take down the people who feel they're above others. I think we're handling this incorrectly right now. The longer we keep focusing on race, gender identity, sexuality, or religion, the longer we're going to be divided. You'll know the day has finally come that we've gotten over this when forms no longer ask for race, sexuality, gender, or religion. When those things truly don't matter, no one will ask you to identify yourself. We will have moved on to different patterns that we can judge more accurately and fairly on. Until then though, the hate seems to just keep building and the current path we're on just seems to be dividing us even more.


You are one person, now imagine all the people passed over or never given the opportunity for the position all the other white men had. You say she is doing better than you would have, had they stuck to the status quo, you would have never known that. You are thinking micro when you should be thinking macro.

You say they knew they were giving the job to a woman anyway but at least you got an interview. They gave you their time, that they didn't give any others (your words), you were SEEN.

We have to fight just to be seen. Black Lives Matter is about just that, we want consideration.

Also, "minorities" aren't making things about race, religion, sex, etc. it's been that way. If things have been this way from the beginning and shining a light on it makes "you" uncomfortable, that means "you" were comfortable as long as it was just about "your" race, sex, and religion!
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#33 » by SuperDeluxe » Wed Jun 9, 2021 8:19 pm

This thread is much more interesting that I thought it'd be. It's been a pleasure to read some of these posts, mind-opening for someone like me who comes from a wholly different place and culture.
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#34 » by titlebound1 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 8:20 pm

Based on the list of available people who are rumored to be in the running, it doesn't sound like we're going to get anyone good regardless of their skin color. I have no idea what the updated list looks like...I haven't checked in a few days. But I'd give Sam Cassell a shot just because he played / won here. If any of the players really have a problem with being coached by someone because they are white, then a think we have a huge problem
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#35 » by nic4747 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 9:14 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:So which groups are the short kid who can’t see over the fence? Isn’t that cartoon offensively implying differences in innate ability or characteristics?


Yeah, I think maybe the cartoon gets a little confusing because it's showing differences in height which is a personal characteristic. But really, what you are trying to correct for is not a personal characteristic, but how society treats you differently because of that personal characteristic. So for example, if you have a police department that is unfairly targeting black people, then as a black person you are more likely to be adversely affected by this, and that is the height difference. The box is however you fix the police department so the black people aren't unfairly targeted.

In terms of which groups are the short kid, it's really any group that society puts at a disadvantage (i.e. the rise in Asian hate during COVID). In some countries around the world the short kid could even be white people (probably not all that common though). This part gets a little tricky because everyone's experiences are different. There might be some consensus that black people in the United States have some degree of disadvantage relative to white people (though you might struggle to get some people to even agree to this basic point). But the experiences of each black person is going to be different. Some black people might make it through their lives relatively unscathed, while others will get hit really hard. So conversations about how to create equity in terms of skin color become a little nuanced because you want to help people who are disadvantaged because society didn't give them a fair shake, as opposed to people who are in a bad spot because they made poor choices that put themselves in that position.
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#36 » by nic4747 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 9:51 pm

greenroom31 wrote:Diversity is a positive attribute of a team. There is no shortage of studies and data to support this statement across a variety of industries. Below please see some links to studies and articles that demonstrate it to be factually true and not just an opinion.

The point is that diversity actually serves an end goal unto itself -- it is inherently valuable. Having a team that is diverse in race, gender, life experience, problem solving, geography, academic background, etc. leads to better outcomes as shown in the studies below.

Accordingly, prioritizing increased diversity when hiring for a position has intrinsic value. This means that attributing value to whether or not a candidate increases diversity within an organization is in fact totally fair, rational and defensible just as attributing value to a candidate's technical skill, relevant experience, or growth potential would be.

I doubt someone would say "It's not fair that the other candidate got the job due to the fact that they are more skilled and experienced than I am", since those are generally accepted factors in determining who to hire. For the same reasons, someone shouldn't say "It's not fair that the other candidate got the job due to the fact that they increase the diversity of the team" since that should also be a generally accepted factor in determining who to hire, since diversity is proven to improve the performance of a team.


I think this is also important because it helps to correct for unconscious bias, which is basically when someone's skin color, etc. might influence how you evaluate someone and you don't even realize it's happening. This is another danger to the "colorblind" approach where you might think you are being fair, but you actually aren't because the discrimination is still happening, but at more of an instinctual level (i.e. your gut is racist, lol). This doesn't just happen with skin color, there are quite a few studies out there that show how advantageous it is to be attractive. Attractive people are often perceived to be more competent, trustworthy, etc. and often get paid more, have an easier time getting jobs, and generally have an easier life than their non-attractive counterparts.
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#37 » by FrodoFraggins » Wed Jun 9, 2021 9:55 pm

My concerns with some of the names being suggested is that it seems Kyrie soured some of our players against coaches that have no NBA cred. I doubt Kyrie is the only player that at the very least wants former NBA players. This makes it a bigger risk to hire a woman even if she is the best choice on paper.

I do think it's time for the franchise to make a more concerted effort towards racial inclusivity in the organization itself. It doesn't have to be the head coach, but if they aren't going to hire executives of color, or even interview them, then there's not much choice. We have at least a decade of work ahead of us if we really want to lose the stigma.

Outside of that, they damn well better include the Jays when it comes to choosing their next coach. They don't have to hire their top choice, but they'd damn well better not hire someone they don't want to play for.
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#38 » by celtics543 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:16 am

Shak_Celts wrote:
celtics543 wrote:I appreciate that this topic was started and I hope to submit a positive addition to it as the conversation continues.

Humans as a species have gotten so far because we are excellent at pattern recognition. Early humans picked up on patterns that told them when bad weather was coming, which berries were edible and which were poisonous, which animals they could tame and which they couldn't, and what the movement of the stars could tell them about upcoming events. So as a species we're genetically hard wired to find patterns and then use them to our advantage. The problem is that we look for the most simple patterns, in this case race but it could also be gender, sex, religion etc, and we use them to make overarching comments about large groups of people.

Unfortunately race is a pattern that we have assigned traits to even though most know that skin color doesn't define any characteristics about a person. The topic of assimilation is brought up sometimes and I find that interesting because the traits people generally follow that up with aren't race specific, they're simply the stereotypes that were long ago placed on certain races.

In my personal life, I applied for a promotion last year and a friend on the interview committee called me after my interview and said that I had no chance to get the job because the company was dead-set on hiring a woman and in fact out of the 28 candidates for the job I was the only male that was interviewed and that was because I already worked there. I was livid because I had been passed over based on being a male. Because the rest of the administrative team I was applying for were white males I didn't get a fair shot. I can understand the optics but it's also not fair to say that because I'm a white male I have the same outlook and same traits as the other white males on the team. (For those interested the woman they hired is excellent and has done a far better job than I would have done, it just rubbed me the wrong way that I wasn't given a fair chance).

If we continue to base things like hiring practices or admissions to college or anything like that on race, religion, gender, sexuality, or anything other than merit we can never move past our issues. We need to stop using stereotypes as a reason to be angry. We need to stop claiming assimilation when it's in regards to the way people dress or how educated they are or what music they listen to. You can't have a basketball team feel like they need to hire a coach of a certain race because of the racist history of the town they play in. I don't believe there's a racist bone in Brad Steven's body. I don't believe there's a racist bone in Doc River's body. Both are excellent coaches. If we were interviewing both of them today Brad would have no shot at all because to hire a white coach is being perceived as a racist hire. I love what Jaylen Brown is fighting for. Equality is important. Equality doesn't happen by demonizing an entire race of people. Equal pay for equal work doesn't happen by demonizing an entire gender. LGBTQ rights don't happen by demonizing an entire group based on sexuality or gender identity. These things happen when everyone works together to make sure they happen and you eliminate the bad apples that are hurting the process.

I'm a straight while male and I've never thought of anyone being "beneath" me on some kind of social hierarchy. I've also never thought of anyone being above me. Our goal should be to pull up those who feel they're beneath and to take down the people who feel they're above others. I think we're handling this incorrectly right now. The longer we keep focusing on race, gender identity, sexuality, or religion, the longer we're going to be divided. You'll know the day has finally come that we've gotten over this when forms no longer ask for race, sexuality, gender, or religion. When those things truly don't matter, no one will ask you to identify yourself. We will have moved on to different patterns that we can judge more accurately and fairly on. Until then though, the hate seems to just keep building and the current path we're on just seems to be dividing us even more.


You are one person, now imagine all the people passed over or never given the opportunity for the position all the other white men had. You say she is doing better than you would have, had they stuck to the status quo, you would have never known that. You are thinking micro when you should be thinking macro.

You say they knew they were giving the job to a woman anyway but at least you got an interview. They gave you their time, that they didn't give any others (your words), you were SEEN.

We have to fight just to be seen. Black Lives Matter is about just that, we want consideration.

Also, "minorities" aren't making things about race, religion, sex, etc. it's been that way. If things have been this way from the beginning and shining a light on it makes "you" uncomfortable, that means "you" were comfortable as long as it was just about "your" race, sex, and religion!



That's what I'm saying. We aren't at a point yet where anything can be assumed. We need to be fighting for more diversity in the workplace and more opportunities for those who are overlooked. I was just giving an example of when I was overlooked based on something that I can't change about myself. I was trying to put myself in the shoes of people who that happens to on a daily basis. I'll never understand what it's like to be a minority where I live. My point is that I hope for a world where things that you're born with, race, gender, religion etc aren't important factors in getting an opportunity because we've realized how ridiculous it is to make those factors.

I'm sorry if my original post made it seem like I was blaming minorities for making things about race, religion, sex etc that wasn't my intent. I think everyone unfortunately defaults to those things. The dream for me would be a world where none of those things mattered. The content of character would be the defining characteristic of a human being, not their skin color, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion or anything else.

I can't possibly understand what it's like to be a minority in this country. But I am doing my best to learn and to help in the fight so that they can be seen and given the same opportunities. Shining a light on things doesn't make me uncomfortable, it needs to happen and it's going to be ugly and full of harsh realities for a lot of people but in the end the playing field needs to be even.

If my post came off as anything else then I apologize. The intent was to unify and try to understand. I understand lots of minorities get passed over for jobs and opportunity all the time. It's not fair. It needs to be fixed. My whole point is that I hope I live long enough to see the day where it's become so commonplace for equity to exist that no one even thinks about race, religion, gender etc.

I think this will be my last post in this thread. I genuinely want to learn about this topic though and will continue reading the replies. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of this important discussion.
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Re: OT: Race/gender/etc thread. 

Post#39 » by BostonCouchGM » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:50 am

djFan71 wrote:To start us off, here is a post of bisme37's that I warned in the old thread to be fair - even though I like the post. It's written respectfully, worth discussing, and had several good replies. People disagreeing, but actually discussing the issue. More of this is what I'd love to see in this thread.

bucknersrevenge wrote:
Tyakack wrote:
I shouldn't have to say this but, I'm black... and I can only imagine a white person saying this for any reason, for any job. They would be called all kinds of racist. Imagine, a white person, saying we need a white boss so our employees will take him seriously. It amazes me what our race is able to get away with saying these days and nobody gives it a second thought.

If our guys need a black coach in order to not roll their eyes at him....... That says alot more about them than it does anyone else. Nothing about this route we are going down screams unity to me. It screams division.. And putting extra emphasis on skin color is not the way to end racism. My opinion. I'll leave it there.


I appreciate your opinion. I would say that if you're worried about a move reading like division, I'd say that you're a few hundred years late to the party. We're already divided man. We've been divided. And a large part of that division is based upon the assumption that a Black person cannot also be the most qualified person. I see you talkin about unity. Be careful. Unity done wrong looks an awful lot like assimilation especially considering the social order of things. It is not your job as a Black man to make others feel at ease with your presence. When those who have historically been in positions of power choose to SEE and accept your skin color and all it entails, then we can talk about unity.


My take is while it doesn't absolutely have to be a black person, I think it would be the right move for the franchise. I don't see the white candidate out there who's credentials are so overwhelming as to make them the obvious choice. Ultimately, NBA coaching is important, but far less important than the players. First year coaches have won lots of titles recently. The pool of retread coaches that are available or have just been fired, or are about to be (hey Bud!) haven't. Plenty of black candidates are just as, or more qualified, than other candidates.

In that scenario where all else is equal, why not use race as a deciding qualification? If a black candidate can relate better to the players, or help repair some of the franchise's image around the league, isn't that a major benefit? If there's a white candidate who can do it better, great, but I don't see one out there.

I do realize that on the surface it sounds racist to say use race as a deciding factor. But to me, that's in a perfect world where all races are truly treated equally and everyone relates to everyone else equally. Which just isn't our world.



I welcome the thread and hope people can be civil. That said, race shouldn't be brought up as it pertains to our coaching search. It's illegal to consider race when hiring people. It should not even be allowed to be discussed. Discrimination is wrong no matter who is doing it to whom.

There's plenty of qualified candidates of all races and genders. I hope we pick someone new with fresh ideas and energy instead of a retread though I do like Atkinson.
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Re: OT: Race/gender/coaching/politics/etc thread. 

Post#40 » by Shak_Celts » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:08 am

celtics543 wrote:
Shak_Celts wrote:
celtics543 wrote:I appreciate that this topic was started and I hope to submit a positive addition to it as the conversation continues.

Humans as a species have gotten so far because we are excellent at pattern recognition. Early humans picked up on patterns that told them when bad weather was coming, which berries were edible and which were poisonous, which animals they could tame and which they couldn't, and what the movement of the stars could tell them about upcoming events. So as a species we're genetically hard wired to find patterns and then use them to our advantage. The problem is that we look for the most simple patterns, in this case race but it could also be gender, sex, religion etc, and we use them to make overarching comments about large groups of people.

Unfortunately race is a pattern that we have assigned traits to even though most know that skin color doesn't define any characteristics about a person. The topic of assimilation is brought up sometimes and I find that interesting because the traits people generally follow that up with aren't race specific, they're simply the stereotypes that were long ago placed on certain races.

In my personal life, I applied for a promotion last year and a friend on the interview committee called me after my interview and said that I had no chance to get the job because the company was dead-set on hiring a woman and in fact out of the 28 candidates for the job I was the only male that was interviewed and that was because I already worked there. I was livid because I had been passed over based on being a male. Because the rest of the administrative team I was applying for were white males I didn't get a fair shot. I can understand the optics but it's also not fair to say that because I'm a white male I have the same outlook and same traits as the other white males on the team. (For those interested the woman they hired is excellent and has done a far better job than I would have done, it just rubbed me the wrong way that I wasn't given a fair chance).

If we continue to base things like hiring practices or admissions to college or anything like that on race, religion, gender, sexuality, or anything other than merit we can never move past our issues. We need to stop using stereotypes as a reason to be angry. We need to stop claiming assimilation when it's in regards to the way people dress or how educated they are or what music they listen to. You can't have a basketball team feel like they need to hire a coach of a certain race because of the racist history of the town they play in. I don't believe there's a racist bone in Brad Steven's body. I don't believe there's a racist bone in Doc River's body. Both are excellent coaches. If we were interviewing both of them today Brad would have no shot at all because to hire a white coach is being perceived as a racist hire. I love what Jaylen Brown is fighting for. Equality is important. Equality doesn't happen by demonizing an entire race of people. Equal pay for equal work doesn't happen by demonizing an entire gender. LGBTQ rights don't happen by demonizing an entire group based on sexuality or gender identity. These things happen when everyone works together to make sure they happen and you eliminate the bad apples that are hurting the process.

I'm a straight while male and I've never thought of anyone being "beneath" me on some kind of social hierarchy. I've also never thought of anyone being above me. Our goal should be to pull up those who feel they're beneath and to take down the people who feel they're above others. I think we're handling this incorrectly right now. The longer we keep focusing on race, gender identity, sexuality, or religion, the longer we're going to be divided. You'll know the day has finally come that we've gotten over this when forms no longer ask for race, sexuality, gender, or religion. When those things truly don't matter, no one will ask you to identify yourself. We will have moved on to different patterns that we can judge more accurately and fairly on. Until then though, the hate seems to just keep building and the current path we're on just seems to be dividing us even more.


You are one person, now imagine all the people passed over or never given the opportunity for the position all the other white men had. You say she is doing better than you would have, had they stuck to the status quo, you would have never known that. You are thinking micro when you should be thinking macro.

You say they knew they were giving the job to a woman anyway but at least you got an interview. They gave you their time, that they didn't give any others (your words), you were SEEN.

We have to fight just to be seen. Black Lives Matter is about just that, we want consideration.

Also, "minorities" aren't making things about race, religion, sex, etc. it's been that way. If things have been this way from the beginning and shining a light on it makes "you" uncomfortable, that means "you" were comfortable as long as it was just about "your" race, sex, and religion!



That's what I'm saying. We aren't at a point yet where anything can be assumed. We need to be fighting for more diversity in the workplace and more opportunities for those who are overlooked. I was just giving an example of when I was overlooked based on something that I can't change about myself. I was trying to put myself in the shoes of people who that happens to on a daily basis. I'll never understand what it's like to be a minority where I live. My point is that I hope for a world where things that you're born with, race, gender, religion etc aren't important factors in getting an opportunity because we've realized how ridiculous it is to make those factors.

I'm sorry if my original post made it seem like I was blaming minorities for making things about race, religion, sex etc that wasn't my intent. I think everyone unfortunately defaults to those things. The dream for me would be a world where none of those things mattered. The content of character would be the defining characteristic of a human being, not their skin color, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion or anything else.

I can't possibly understand what it's like to be a minority in this country. But I am doing my best to learn and to help in the fight so that they can be seen and given the same opportunities. Shining a light on things doesn't make me uncomfortable, it needs to happen and it's going to be ugly and full of harsh realities for a lot of people but in the end the playing field needs to be even.

If my post came off as anything else then I apologize. The intent was to unify and try to understand. I understand lots of minorities get passed over for jobs and opportunity all the time. It's not fair. It needs to be fixed. My whole point is that I hope I live long enough to see the day where it's become so commonplace for equity to exist that no one even thinks about race, religion, gender etc.

I think this will be my last post in this thread. I genuinely want to learn about this topic though and will continue reading the replies. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of this important discussion.


You don't have to apologize for your comment. It's a discussion. Why stop talking? A discussion requires at least two people, we don't have to agree on everything. I can talk to myself but I prefer talking to "you."

I talk to proud racists all the time and I doubt whether we agree on the color of the sky. I don't have anything against you, so I know we should be able to hold a conversation no matter which side we come from.

Edit: I'll dive deeper into your comment if you are open to discussion.
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