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Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22

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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#61 » by Hal14 » Sun Aug 8, 2021 3:59 am

Theocy wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:
moonie_mcgee wrote:
I think Hayes (sic?) and Bruno will bring much needed muscle to the front court. Plus we have Kanter back, Horford instead of Walker and a rehabbed RWill. Plus the undrafted 6'8 shooter has a solid frame. All this is an upgrade over last year. Plus Richardson and Dunn have good size and strength in the backcourt. AND Nesmith Langford and Pritch will all be stronger. If anything Stevens and the new coach see strength and toughness as vital to good season. We're going to compete. Win or lose, we're going to compete or no one is gonna come here. Last year was an embarrassment.


Agreed, Moonie, last year was an embarrassment. I just want enough shooting for the Jays to have the spacing to learn to pass out to their teammates. Nesmith and Pritchard are gonna have to earn big minutes for them to get that at this point. Would be great for Hauser to surprise by earning minutes as well, but that's asking a lot as an undrafted player at his position. Counting on him, Bruno and Dunn to be legit rotation players is asking a lot--and Al is old.



How is Dunns defensive skillset ?

Dunn is one of the best defensive guards in the league.

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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#62 » by Parliament10 » Sun Aug 8, 2021 8:10 am

Hal14 wrote:
Theocy wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:
Agreed, Moonie, last year was an embarrassment. I just want enough shooting for the Jays to have the spacing to learn to pass out to their teammates. Nesmith and Pritchard are gonna have to earn big minutes for them to get that at this point. Would be great for Hauser to surprise by earning minutes as well, but that's asking a lot as an undrafted player at his position. Counting on him, Bruno and Dunn to be legit rotation players is asking a lot--and Al is old.



How is Dunns defensive skillset ?

Dunn is one of the best defensive guards in the league.


Interesting. IDK that Dunn was that good on Defense.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#63 » by Theocy » Sun Aug 8, 2021 8:38 pm

Parliament10 wrote:
Hal14 wrote:
Theocy wrote:

How is Dunns defensive skillset ?

Dunn is one of the best defensive guards in the league.


Interesting. IDK that Dunn was that good on Defense.


So we now have a few bulldogs in the team.

Romeo, Smart, Richarsdon, Neismith and Dunn either have skills or the hassle

Kind of feels like that’s this year’s moto play tough defence ?
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#64 » by captain green » Sun Aug 8, 2021 10:09 pm

Smart starter dunn first bench option pp whatever's left yam 2 way break in case of emergency. assuming waters is gone and assuming langford isn't being groomed for pg. also assuming german rondo not signed.
We always talk about there’s A-to-Z… really, there’s A-to-G or -E,’” Ainge told Celtics.com of a team’s typical offseason agenda. “This year, there’s definitely A-to-Z.” : danny ainge
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#65 » by BostonCouchGM » Sun Aug 8, 2021 11:28 pm

we've got a very deep PG rotation. Pritchard should start with Smart being the 6th man. Zero reason to sign a guy like Schroder
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#66 » by Parliament10 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:48 pm

Read on Twitter




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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#67 » by greenroom31 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:54 pm

BostonCouchGM wrote:we've got a very deep PG rotation. Pritchard should start with Smart being the 6th man. Zero reason to sign a guy like Schroder


2 guys is "very deep"? And both are solid rotational guys but not exactly well established starters. Yam looked good in his first SL game, but that was just one game, and we don't even know if he's making the roster yet.

If we can get Schroder on a cheap 1 year deal that would be great. Gives Smart more minutes at 2 and let's us play small ball with Schroder/PP/Smart at the 1-2 and Jaylen/Tatum at the 3-4, Horford/RW3/Kanter at 5.

The biggest issue on this team is that we don't have another good 4 with length, so absent filling that gap I like bringing in another PG and sliding Brown and Tatum up a spot.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#68 » by Scoonie » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:56 pm

BostonCouchGM wrote:we've got a very deep PG rotation. Pritchard should start with Smart being the 6th man. Zero reason to sign a guy like Schroder


Smart isn't a point guard, and Pritchard is a decent backup. Kris Dunn is a wildcard who we don't even know will be healthy.

Schroeder would by far be the best point guard on our roster.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#69 » by greenroom31 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:59 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#70 » by Parliament10 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:04 pm

Read on Twitter




What's Smart waiting for?
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#71 » by Parliament10 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:06 pm

greenroom31 wrote:
Read on Twitter

Schröder blew it, when he turned down the Lakers 4yr/$84M offer.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#72 » by cloverleaf » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:09 pm

Parliament10 wrote:
greenroom31 wrote:
Read on Twitter

Schröder blew it, when he turned down the Lakers 4yr/$84M offer.


Gotta be tough scaling expectations down from 40% of a Luka to 2% of a Luka.

Then there's the perpetually bruised Marcus Smart ego to deal with too. His agent has scored some big deals, so the agent might lean toward gambling on next summer.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#73 » by Parliament10 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:12 pm

cloverleaf wrote:
Parliament10 wrote:
greenroom31 wrote:
Read on Twitter

Schröder blew it, when he turned down the Lakers 4yr/$84M offer.


Gotta be tough scaling expectations down from 40% of a Luka to 2% of a Luka.

Then there's the perpetually bruised Marcus Smart ego to deal with too. His agent has scored some big deals, so the agent might lean toward gambling on next summer.

Smart needs to hurry up and take that deal.
Schröder, I don't really care for.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#74 » by Triple7 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:53 pm

greenroom31 wrote:
BostonCouchGM wrote:we've got a very deep PG rotation. Pritchard should start with Smart being the 6th man. Zero reason to sign a guy like Schroder


2 guys is "very deep"? And both are solid rotational guys but not exactly well established starters. Yam looked good in his first SL game, but that was just one game, and we don't even know if he's making the roster yet.

If we can get Schroder on a cheap 1 year deal that would be great. Gives Smart more minutes at 2 and let's us play small ball with Schroder/PP/Smart at the 1-2 and Jaylen/Tatum at the 3-4, Horford/RW3/Kanter at 5.

The biggest issue on this team is that we don't have another good 4 with length, so absent filling that gap I like bringing in another PG and sliding Brown and Tatum up a spot.


Enough with the small ball basketball. We need to get bigger. That would only invite problems defensively. Smart should play the 1, and Richardson, nesmith or Brown the 2. Smart with Schroder is the worst, one of the smallest back court in the league, and also one of the worst shooting backcourt. Not a good fit with the Jays. If we are getting Schroder, they better let Smart go, because Smart with Schroder won’t work.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#75 » by ddb » Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:00 pm

Celts need to find a taker with space for Dunn/Bruno. Would likely cost the Celtics 2 2nd rd picks which seems to be the going rate these days. If they are able to do this, then they could offer Schroder a 2 year (2nd year PO) for the full MLE, and avoid the hardcap. However, I'm not convinced that Boston would be willing to do this hence why they offered the 5.9 for 1 year.
If Schroder accepts the 5.9 then Stevens could then look to move Dunn or Smart or whichever package it would take to go out and trade for a big physical 3&D wing player which is really what this team needs.....
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#76 » by GoGreen » Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:18 pm

So, for those capologists out there, is ownership being cheap regarding this Schroder thing, or is avoiding the hard cap legit?
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#77 » by ParticleMan » Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:02 pm

GoGreen wrote:So, for those capologists out there, is ownership being cheap regarding this Schroder thing, or is avoiding the hard cap legit?


It's a flexibility issue. If for instance Beal or some other star becomes available at the deadline, we might have to do a lot of maneuvering to trade for him under the hard cap; without being hard capped it may be a lot easier. Or if someone comes available for our 9.7m TPE, we wouldn't be able to take them on if we are hard-capped. So it definitely limits our possible moves this year.

It's a question of whether Dennis Schroeder is worth losing that flexibility over. Not sure he is, I don't think he is that much of a difference maker.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#78 » by Hal14 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:02 pm

Ok, I have been mulling this over and here's what I'm thinking. Despite the fact that I am one of the bigger Madar advocates (on here as well as other social media sites), I am now thinking it is probably best for him to just play out the last yr of his contract back home in Israel.

Why?

1) The PG spot on our team is crowded right now. And it's also very much in flux. Can Pritchard be a legit starter or is he a career backup? Can Smart actually play the 1 or no? Is Smart even going to be here? Is he going to accept the extension offer? Is he getting traded? Is Dunn staying or going? Are we signing Schroder? Dunn and Schroder, are they even legit PGs who can facilitate or are they better suited for the 2?

There's so many questions, so much up in the air - it is probably best for us to just bring Madar over here next year once all of this stuff (hopefully) has been cleared up.

If we acquire Schroder, either Smart or Dunn is gone (either in that same deal or a separate one). So your PG rotation would be either Schroder/Smart/Pritchard or Schroder/Pritchard/Dunn

If we don't acquire Schroder, you just stay with what you have right now which is a PG rotation of Smart/Pritchard/Dunn

You see, the PG spot is just too crowded. And between Schroder/Smart/Pritchard/Dunn, you could maybe argue that Madar is just as good (or even better) than some of these guys but he is not definitively better than any of them. If he was, then sure, maybe you try and maneuver the roster in a way so that Madar is one of your top 2 or 3 guys on the PG depth chart but it's simply not the case - at least not today.

Not to mention Edwards is still under contract for another year. Sure, we can buy Edwards out of his contract but that is $ being spent by us - just like we'd have to help pay some $ towards Madar getting bought out of the last yr of his Israeli team contract. Is it worth it to spend that $ for a guy (Madar) who may or may not even be one of our 3 best PGs this season? Probably not

2) Madar's age. He's only 20 yrs old, and will be 21 in December. So what's the rush in bringing him over now? Think about how much better Pritchard was last yr as a rookie than Nesmith was. Hell, Pritchard was also better than Langford. Why? Pritchard was 23 yrs old, compared to Nesmith and Langford who were only 21. That 2 yrs makes a big difference. As a pro basketball player, for the most part, ages 18-21 are your development years. You're just this young kid, you're still learning, you're still figuring it out, still getting stronger physically, still maturing as a person, you're going to make more mistakes, have growing pains, etc.

Age 22 you start getting past that "growing pains" stage and you start kicking some a%%. Then age 23 and 24 is when many players really take some significant leaps and start showing signs of being a star. Age 25-29 is the prime for most NBA players. Age 30-32 they are still really good but you start seeing a little bit of a decline.

So why not just keep Madar over there for another yr and then bring him over here next year? Next year he will start the season at age 21 but play most of it at age 22. He'll be in more of a position to kick a%% at that point.

Plus, most rookie contracts are 3 years with maybe an option for a 4th yr. Well guess what, if we bring Madar over right now, his rookie contract begins now and the clock is ticking on his 3 years - he'll be a free agent in 2024. But if we stash him for another yr, we delay the beginning of his rookie contract for 1 more yr, so he won't be a free agent until 2025 - he'll stay under Celtics control until then.

Plus, the 3 yrs he is playing for us on his rookie contract - those will be 3 more productive yrs for him as a player if we wait a yr and bring him over next year. Obviously, Madar at age 22/23/24 is better than Madar at age 21/22/23 - I don't think there's any debate that most NBA players are clearly better at age 24 than they are at age 21 (barring injury). I'd rather be paying Madar $ on his rookie contract at age 24 than at age 21 because you're much better at age 24 than you are at 21 - that means stashing him overseas for 1 more yr.

3) You wait a year, it also gives Madar time to bulk up. Obviously you watch him play and the only negative anyone can say is, "oh he looks, small, too skinny". According to reports, Madar did everything the Celtics asked of him last yr when he was stashed overseas. So I'm sure that this year he will also do everything the Celtics ask of him, which should simply be
a) Get bigger/stronger
b) Tighten up the handle
c) Just keep working on everything else, the outside shot (shooting as much as possible from NBA range), being in the right spots defensively, making the right reads offensively.

If he works on all of that stuff, on top of how good he is already today, we could seriously be looking at a franchise PG here who will be ready to make a serious impact as a 22 yr old rookie in 2022-2023 season.

But the bottom line is, keeping Madar in Israel for 1 more year, it allows you to have a better roster construction - one where you have less guys on the team who are age 20/21 or younger. Instead you can use that roster spot on a veteran. Last season the C's were one of the youngest teams in the league and that was a big reason for our struggles and inconsistency.

4) Waiting a year to bring him over, it also makes it so Pritchard and Madar's rookie years are separated by 2 years instead of 1. There's been a lot of debates on here about Pritchard vs Madar. The other day after Pritchard scored 23 points in our first summer league game, Madar got most of the media attention and buzz on social media - hell, half the questions Pritchard got asked in his post-game press conference were about Madar. As of today, there might be some tension between them - they might see each other as competition. There will much less of that crap if we separate them by a year.

5) Madar will improve/develop more by playing another year overseas. If he stays overseas, he is guaranteed to be the starting PG, getting 30+ mins a game. If he is on the C's, maybe he only gets 5-10 mins a game, maybe he steals the starting PG spot and plays 25-30 mins a game, maybe somewhere in between. We don't know how much he would play on the C's, but we know he'd play more in Israel - probably a lot more.

6) All of these dudes we have this yr on the last year of their contract - it will just be a lot easier to find a roster spot for Madar next year. Plus if he shows he can dominate in Israel for another year and gets bigger/stronger, then the team will be much more likely to find a roster spot for him.

This all changes of course if he really goes nuts and dominates the rest of the summer league games. But:
a) I doubt he dominates to the point where you feel totally comfortable with him as one of your top 2 (or at worst 3) PGs heading into the season and he completely leapfrogs at least 1 (but ideally 2) of the following guys: Smart, Schroder, Pritchard, Dunn. Smart can always play the 2 instead (and Schroder isn't even officially on the team) but I think you have to really be confident that Madar is better right now, today than either Dunn or Pritchard.
b) You really shouldn't put that much weight on summer league games anyways. Small sample size of games, not the same competition as real NBA games, not even the same coaching staff, etc.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#79 » by Scoonie » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:10 pm

Hal14 wrote:Ok, I have been mulling this over and here's what I'm thinking. Despite the fact that I am one of the bigger Madar advocates (on here as well as other social media sites), I am now thinking it is probably best for him to just play out the last yr of his contract back home in Israel.


You're probably right. If he comes over this seasons, he's likely not going to get much PT (especially if we sign Schroeder). Better for him to get another solid year of development in Israel and finish out his contract over there.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#80 » by playa-hater » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:26 pm

Hal14 wrote:Ok, I have been mulling this over and here's what I'm thinking. Despite the fact that I am one of the bigger Madar advocates (on here as well as other social media sites), I am now thinking it is probably best for him to just play out the last yr of his contract back home in Israel.

Why?

1) The PG spot on our team is crowded right now. And it's also very much in flux. Can Pritchard be a legit starter or is he a career backup? Can Smart actually play the 1 or no? Is Smart even going to be here? Is he going to accept the extension offer? Is he getting traded? Is Dunn staying or going? Are we signing Schroder? Dunn and Schroder, are they even legit PGs who can facilitate or are they better suited for the 2?

There's so many questions, so much up in the air - it is probably best for us to just bring Madar over here next year once all of this stuff (hopefully) has been cleared up.

If we acquire Schroder, either Smart or Dunn is gone (either in that same deal or a separate one). So your PG rotation would be either Schroder/Smart/Pritchard or Schroder/Pritchard/Dunn

If we don't acquire Schroder, you just stay with what you have right now which is a PG rotation of Smart/Pritchard/Dunn

You see, the PG spot is just too crowded. And between Schroder/Smart/Pritchard/Dunn, you could maybe argue that Madar is just as good (or even better) than some of these guys but he is not definitively better than any of them. If he was, then sure, maybe you try and maneuver the roster in a way so that Madar is one of your top 2 or 3 guys on the PG depth chart but it's simply not the case - at least not today.

Not to mention Edwards is still under contract for another year. Sure, we can buy Edwards out of his contract but that is $ being spent by us - just like we'd have to help pay some $ towards Madar getting bought out of the last yr of his Israeli team contract. Is it worth it to spend that $ for a guy (Madar) who may or may not even be one of our 3 best PGs this season? Probably not

2) Madar's age. He's only 20 yrs old, and will be 21 in December. So what's the rush in bringing him over now? Think about how much better Pritchard was last yr as a rookie than Nesmith was. Hell, Pritchard was also better than Langford. Why? Pritchard was 23 yrs old, compared to Nesmith and Langford who were only 21. That 2 yrs makes a big difference. As a pro basketball player, for the most part, ages 18-21 are your development years. You're just this young kid, you're still learning, you're still figuring it out, still getting stronger physically, still maturing as a person, you're going to make more mistakes, have growing pains, etc.

Age 22 you start getting past that "growing pains" stage and you start kicking some a%%. Then age 23 and 24 is when many players really take some significant leaps and start showing signs of being a star. Age 25-29 is the prime for most NBA players. Age 30-32 they are still really good but you start seeing a little bit of a decline.

So why not just keep Madar over there for another yr and then bring him over here next year? Next year he will start the season at age 21 but play most of it at age 22. He'll be in more of a position to kick a%% at that point.

Plus, most rookie contracts are 3 years with maybe an option for a 4th yr. Well guess what, if we bring Madar over right now, his rookie contract begins now and the clock is ticking on his 3 years - he'll be a free agent in 2024. But if we stash him for another yr, we delay the beginning of his rookie contract for 1 more yr, so he won't be a free agent until 2025 - he'll stay under Celtics control until then.

Plus, the 3 yrs he is playing for us on his rookie contract - those will be 3 more productive yrs for him as a player if we wait a yr and bring him over next year. Obviously, Madar at age 22/23/24 is better than Madar at age 21/22/23 - I don't think there's any debate that most NBA players are clearly better at age 24 than they are at age 21 (barring injury).

3) You wait a year, it also gives Madar time to bulk up. Obviously you watch him play and the only negative anyone can say is, "oh he looks, small, too skinny". According to reports, Madar did everything the Celtics asked of him last yr when he was stashed overseas. So I'm sure that this year he will also do everything the Celtics ask of him, which should simply be
a) Get bigger/stronger
b) Tighten up the handle
c) Just keep working on everything else, the outside shot (shooting as much as possible from NBA range), being in the right spots defensively, making the right reads offensively.

If he works on all of that stuff, on top of how good he is already today, we could seriously be looking at a franchise PG here who will be ready to make a serious impact as a 22 yr old rookie in 2022-2023 season.

But the bottom line is, keeping Madar in Israel for 1 more year, it allows you to have a better roster construction - one where you have less guys on the team who are age 20/21 or younger. Instead you can use that roster spot on a veteran. Last season the C's were one of the youngest teams in the league and that was a big reason for our struggles and inconsistency.

4) Waiting a year to bring him over, it also makes it so Pritchard and Madar's rookie years are separated by 2 years instead of 1. There's been a lot of debates on here about Pritchard vs Madar. The other day after Pritchard scored 23 points in our first summer league game, Madar got most of the media attention and buzz on social media - hell, half the questions Pritchard got asked in his post-game press conference were about Madar. As of today, there might be some tension between them - they might see each other as competition. There will much less of that crap if we separate them by a year.

5) Madar will improve/develop more by playing another year overseas. If he stays overseas, he is guaranteed to be the starting PG, getting 30+ mins a game. If he is on the C's, maybe he only gets 5-10 mins a game, maybe he steals the starting PG spot and plays 25-30 mins a game, maybe somewhere in between. We don't know how much he would play on the C's, but we know he'd play more in Israel - probably a lot more.

6) All of these dudes we have this yr on the last year of their contract - it will just be a lot easier to find a roster spot for Madar next year. Plus if he shows he can dominate in Israel for another year and gets bigger/stronger, then the team will be much more likely to find a roster spot for him.

This all changes of course if he really goes nuts and dominates the rest of the summer league games. But:
a) I doubt he dominates to the point where you feel totally comfortable with him as one of your top 2 (or at worst 3) PGs heading into the season and he completely leapfrogs at least 1 (but ideally 2) of the following guys: Smart, Schroder, Pritchard, Dunn. Smart can always play the 2 instead (and Schroder isn't even officially on the team) but I think you have to really be confident that Madar is better right now, today than either Dunn or Pritchard.
b) You really shouldn't put that much weight on summer league games anyways. Small sample size of games, not the same competition as real NBA games, not even the same coaching staff, etc.


All the reasons I stated as to why I want Begarin here vs overseas applies to Yam as well.

The Short version I feel is a player can develop more here, even with a 2-way contract than on some other continent. If you factor in our bad luck with injury history, Yam's and JB's playing time might even be more than anticipated with a 2-way player.
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