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Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22

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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#81 » by Brett43 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:31 pm

Smart the Point Guard - maybe/maybe not.

Pritchard - Definitely an NBA rotation player. Can he be the starting PG?

Schroeder - Solid pickup! I wished he was on our team in the past, plus he scored 15 ppg last season!

Madar - Seems like a real talent, but what's the rush?

Dunn - Total wild card as far as I am concerned.

Edwards - Maybe they can trade him if he has a solid Summer league.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#82 » by cloverleaf » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:52 pm

If you watch Yam's workout videos, it appears as if his trainer has emphasized flexibility and endurance rather than bulk and pure strength. That may be why he was sent to Semi's trainer this summer. So I am hopeful that he can be helped at least somewhat with another approach, as of course with increasing age.

But I think how the next four games go could determine where Yam plays. I'm still hopeful and would like him over here. If he were in last year's Tremont role, I think he his play would earn him more court time with the C's, plus he could get semi-regular games in up in Maine.

I think he will be more of a difference maker than, for example, Dunn, whom I doubt will be here. If Schroder is here, I think Yam could really learn a lot from him in a year, as they are somewhat similar both physically and in playing style. I'm still hopeful Smart is gone, at least before the deadline. That could yield Yam a midseason promotion as well. I don't think there's much more for Yam to gain in Israel. If he moved up to a grown-man's league and team in Europe, that would be different.

But if he continues to show well, I'm actually okay with a Schroder/Pritchard/Yam depth chart, knowing that Romeo can be a primary bench playmaker in a pinch. Richardson would also be complementary to Yam in the backcourt and can also be a primary playmaker in a pinch as well.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#83 » by Parliament10 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:03 pm

playa-hater wrote:
Hal14 wrote:Ok, I have been mulling this over and here's what I'm thinking. Despite the fact that I am one of the bigger Madar advocates (on here as well as other social media sites), I am now thinking it is probably best for him to just play out the last yr of his contract back home in Israel.

Why?

1) The PG spot on our team is crowded right now. And it's also very much in flux. Can Pritchard be a legit starter or is he a career backup? Can Smart actually play the 1 or no? Is Smart even going to be here? Is he going to accept the extension offer? Is he getting traded? Is Dunn staying or going? Are we signing Schroder? Dunn and Schroder, are they even legit PGs who can facilitate or are they better suited for the 2?

There's so many questions, so much up in the air - it is probably best for us to just bring Madar over here next year once all of this stuff (hopefully) has been cleared up.

If we acquire Schroder, either Smart or Dunn is gone (either in that same deal or a separate one). So your PG rotation would be either Schroder/Smart/Pritchard or Schroder/Pritchard/Dunn

If we don't acquire Schroder, you just stay with what you have right now which is a PG rotation of Smart/Pritchard/Dunn

You see, the PG spot is just too crowded. And between Schroder/Smart/Pritchard/Dunn, you could maybe argue that Madar is just as good (or even better) than some of these guys but he is not definitively better than any of them. If he was, then sure, maybe you try and maneuver the roster in a way so that Madar is one of your top 2 or 3 guys on the PG depth chart but it's simply not the case - at least not today.

Not to mention Edwards is still under contract for another year. Sure, we can buy Edwards out of his contract but that is $ being spent by us - just like we'd have to help pay some $ towards Madar getting bought out of the last yr of his Israeli team contract. Is it worth it to spend that $ for a guy (Madar) who may or may not even be one of our 3 best PGs this season? Probably not

2) Madar's age. He's only 20 yrs old, and will be 21 in December. So what's the rush in bringing him over now? Think about how much better Pritchard was last yr as a rookie than Nesmith was. Hell, Pritchard was also better than Langford. Why? Pritchard was 23 yrs old, compared to Nesmith and Langford who were only 21. That 2 yrs makes a big difference. As a pro basketball player, for the most part, ages 18-21 are your development years. You're just this young kid, you're still learning, you're still figuring it out, still getting stronger physically, still maturing as a person, you're going to make more mistakes, have growing pains, etc.

Age 22 you start getting past that "growing pains" stage and you start kicking some a%%. Then age 23 and 24 is when many players really take some significant leaps and start showing signs of being a star. Age 25-29 is the prime for most NBA players. Age 30-32 they are still really good but you start seeing a little bit of a decline.

So why not just keep Madar over there for another yr and then bring him over here next year? Next year he will start the season at age 21 but play most of it at age 22. He'll be in more of a position to kick a%% at that point.

Plus, most rookie contracts are 3 years with maybe an option for a 4th yr. Well guess what, if we bring Madar over right now, his rookie contract begins now and the clock is ticking on his 3 years - he'll be a free agent in 2024. But if we stash him for another yr, we delay the beginning of his rookie contract for 1 more yr, so he won't be a free agent until 2025 - he'll stay under Celtics control until then.

Plus, the 3 yrs he is playing for us on his rookie contract - those will be 3 more productive yrs for him as a player if we wait a yr and bring him over next year. Obviously, Madar at age 22/23/24 is better than Madar at age 21/22/23 - I don't think there's any debate that most NBA players are clearly better at age 24 than they are at age 21 (barring injury).

3) You wait a year, it also gives Madar time to bulk up. Obviously you watch him play and the only negative anyone can say is, "oh he looks, small, too skinny". According to reports, Madar did everything the Celtics asked of him last yr when he was stashed overseas. So I'm sure that this year he will also do everything the Celtics ask of him, which should simply be
a) Get bigger/stronger
b) Tighten up the handle
c) Just keep working on everything else, the outside shot (shooting as much as possible from NBA range), being in the right spots defensively, making the right reads offensively.

If he works on all of that stuff, on top of how good he is already today, we could seriously be looking at a franchise PG here who will be ready to make a serious impact as a 22 yr old rookie in 2022-2023 season.

But the bottom line is, keeping Madar in Israel for 1 more year, it allows you to have a better roster construction - one where you have less guys on the team who are age 20/21 or younger. Instead you can use that roster spot on a veteran. Last season the C's were one of the youngest teams in the league and that was a big reason for our struggles and inconsistency.

4) Waiting a year to bring him over, it also makes it so Pritchard and Madar's rookie years are separated by 2 years instead of 1. There's been a lot of debates on here about Pritchard vs Madar. The other day after Pritchard scored 23 points in our first summer league game, Madar got most of the media attention and buzz on social media - hell, half the questions Pritchard got asked in his post-game press conference were about Madar. As of today, there might be some tension between them - they might see each other as competition. There will much less of that crap if we separate them by a year.

5) Madar will improve/develop more by playing another year overseas. If he stays overseas, he is guaranteed to be the starting PG, getting 30+ mins a game. If he is on the C's, maybe he only gets 5-10 mins a game, maybe he steals the starting PG spot and plays 25-30 mins a game, maybe somewhere in between. We don't know how much he would play on the C's, but we know he'd play more in Israel - probably a lot more.

6) All of these dudes we have this yr on the last year of their contract - it will just be a lot easier to find a roster spot for Madar next year. Plus if he shows he can dominate in Israel for another year and gets bigger/stronger, then the team will be much more likely to find a roster spot for him.

This all changes of course if he really goes nuts and dominates the rest of the summer league games. But:
a) I doubt he dominates to the point where you feel totally comfortable with him as one of your top 2 (or at worst 3) PGs heading into the season and he completely leapfrogs at least 1 (but ideally 2) of the following guys: Smart, Schroder, Pritchard, Dunn. Smart can always play the 2 instead (and Schroder isn't even officially on the team) but I think you have to really be confident that Madar is better right now, today than either Dunn or Pritchard.
b) You really shouldn't put that much weight on summer league games anyways. Small sample size of games, not the same competition as real NBA games, not even the same coaching staff, etc.


All the reasons I stated as to why I want Begarin here vs overseas applies to Yam as well.

The Short version I feel is a player can develop more here, even with a 2-way contract than on some other continent. If you factor in our bad luck with injury history, Yam's and JB's playing time might even be more than anticipated with a 2-way player.

I gotta Agree with that.
TBH, I don't think that 2 x Two-Ways, is enough injury insurance.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#84 » by Parliament10 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:11 pm

Brett43 wrote:Smart the Point Guard - maybe/maybe not.

Pritchard - Definitely an NBA rotation player. Can he be the starting PG?

Schroeder - Solid pickup! I wished he was on our team in the past, plus he scored 15 ppg last season!

Madar - Seems like a real talent, but what's the rush?

Dunn - Total wild card as far as I am concerned.

Edwards - Maybe they can trade him if he has a solid Summer league.

Smart -- Agree on that Question Mark. He's better as our 6th-Man.
Pritchard -- He's a good Backup PG too; for the time being.
Schröder -- Eh. I never liked his attitude. I don't think that we'll be happy with him.
Madar -- I don't think that he wants, or needs, to be in any other league. These years are precious.
Dunn -- Done.
Edwards -- Ditto.
"It's not about me, it's about the Team."
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#85 » by Hal14 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:21 pm

cloverleaf wrote:If you watch Yam's workout videos, it appears as if his trainer has emphasized flexibility and endurance rather than bulk and pure strength. That may be why he was sent to Semi's trainer this summer. So I am hopeful that he can be helped at least somewhat with another approach, as of course with increasing age.

But I think how the next four games go could determine where Yam plays. I'm still hopeful and would like him over here. If he were in last year's Tremont role, I think he his play would earn him more court time with the C's, plus he could get semi-regular games in up in Maine.

I think he will be more of a difference maker than, for example, Dunn, whom I doubt will be here. If Schroder is here, I think Yam could really learn a lot from him in a year, as they are somewhat similar both physically and in playing style. I'm still hopeful Smart is gone, at least before the deadline. That could yield Yam a midseason promotion as well. I don't think there's much more for Yam to gain in Israel. If he moved up to a grown-man's league and team in Europe, that would be different.

But if he continues to show well, I'm actually okay with a Schroder/Pritchard/Yam depth chart, knowing that Romeo can be a primary bench playmaker in a pinch. Richardson would also be complementary to Yam in the backcourt and can also be a primary playmaker in a pinch as well.

Fair points all around.

With Madar, I'm not as worried about the strength thing. It's moreso the backcourt which is so crowded and has so many question marks - I think a yr from now a lot of the question marks will be answered and it'll be less crowded, especially with Edwards no longer taking up a wasted roster spot.

Of course, your scenario has Smart and Dunn both packing their bags, which of course would mean the back court has less question marks and is less crowded. So yeah, if both of those guys are gone, sure bring Madar over now. I too am cool with a Schroder/Pritchard/Madar PG depth chart.

It's just that us getting rid of both Smart and Dunn is by no means a sure thing - although if madar (and Pritchard) keep impressing in summer league, it might be more likely to happen.

Lastly, I do agree that Madar doesn't really stand to gain much by going back and playing in the Israeli League another yr. He would definitely develop more if he played in a more competitive league in Europe, but he doesn't have a contract with any of those other Europe teams. He does have 1 yr left on his contract with his Israeli team so it might just be easiest to let him play out that last yr and then bring him over after.

We'll see..
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#86 » by cloverleaf » Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:14 pm

Hal14 wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:If you watch Yam's workout videos, it appears as if his trainer has emphasized flexibility and endurance rather than bulk and pure strength. That may be why he was sent to Semi's trainer this summer. So I am hopeful that he can be helped at least somewhat with another approach, as of course with increasing age.

But I think how the next four games go could determine where Yam plays. I'm still hopeful and would like him over here. If he were in last year's Tremont role, I think he his play would earn him more court time with the C's, plus he could get semi-regular games in up in Maine.

I think he will be more of a difference maker than, for example, Dunn, whom I doubt will be here. If Schroder is here, I think Yam could really learn a lot from him in a year, as they are somewhat similar both physically and in playing style. I'm still hopeful Smart is gone, at least before the deadline. That could yield Yam a midseason promotion as well. I don't think there's much more for Yam to gain in Israel. If he moved up to a grown-man's league and team in Europe, that would be different.

But if he continues to show well, I'm actually okay with a Schroder/Pritchard/Yam depth chart, knowing that Romeo can be a primary bench playmaker in a pinch. Richardson would also be complementary to Yam in the backcourt and can also be a primary playmaker in a pinch as well.

Fair points all around.

With Madar, I'm not as worried about the strength thing. It's moreso the backcourt which is so crowded and has so many question marks - I think a yr from now a lot of the question marks will be answered and it'll be less crowded, especially with Edwards no longer taking up a wasted roster spot.

Of course, your scenario has Smart and Dunn both packing their bags, which of course would mean the back court has less question marks and is less crowded. So yeah, if both of those guys are gone, sure bring Madar over now. I too am cool with a Schroder/Pritchard/Madar PG depth chart.

It's just that us getting rid of both Smart and Dunn is by no means a sure thing - although if madar (and Pritchard) keep impressing in summer league, it might be more likely to happen.

Lastly, I do agree that Madar doesn't really stand to gain much by going back and playing in the Israeli League another yr. He would definitely develop more if he played in a more competitive league in Europe, but he doesn't have a contract with any of those other Europe teams. He does have 1 yr left on his contract with his Israeli team so it might just be easiest to let him play out that last yr and then bring him over after.

We'll see..


The idea of Carsen affecting any C's development is just sad. He and Bruno are cheap fillers, Dunn a more expensive filler, but to me that's all they are. Time for Barter Brad to get wheeling.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#87 » by Jingles2 » Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:20 pm

I think Payton should be our starting point guard this year and probably get about 30 minutes a game. Let Schroeder be the 6th man where he can play both guard positions and still get around 30 minutes. See what Smart is worth on the trade market. I like Smart, but not as the starting point guard and not at 15+ million a year. If you can trade Smart then hold on to Dunn and see what he can provide as a defensive specialist and 3rd point guard.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#88 » by bisme37 » Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:40 pm

Jingles2 wrote:I think Payton should be our starting point guard this year and probably get about 30 minutes a game. Let Schroeder be the 6th man where he can play both guard positions and still get around 30 minutes. See what Smart is worth on the trade market. I like Smart, but not as the starting point guard and not at 15+ million a year. If you can trade Smart then hold on to Dunn and see what he can provide as a defensive specialist and 3rd point guard.


Welcome to Celtics fandom if you've changed your team but I'm confused because aren't you a Jazz fan?
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#89 » by Jingles2 » Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:54 pm

bisme37 wrote:
Jingles2 wrote:I think Payton should be our starting point guard this year and probably get about 30 minutes a game. Let Schroeder be the 6th man where he can play both guard positions and still get around 30 minutes. See what Smart is worth on the trade market. I like Smart, but not as the starting point guard and not at 15+ million a year. If you can trade Smart then hold on to Dunn and see what he can provide as a defensive specialist and 3rd point guard.


Welcome to Celtics fandom if you've changed your team but I'm confused because aren't you a Jazz fan?


Jazz are my western conference team and I like the Celtics from the East.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#90 » by bisme37 » Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:55 pm

Jingles2 wrote:
bisme37 wrote:
Jingles2 wrote:I think Payton should be our starting point guard this year and probably get about 30 minutes a game. Let Schroeder be the 6th man where he can play both guard positions and still get around 30 minutes. See what Smart is worth on the trade market. I like Smart, but not as the starting point guard and not at 15+ million a year. If you can trade Smart then hold on to Dunn and see what he can provide as a defensive specialist and 3rd point guard.


Welcome to Celtics fandom if you've changed your team but I'm confused because aren't you a Jazz fan?


Jazz are my western conference team and I like the Celtics from the East.


Cool!
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#91 » by playa-hater » Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:11 pm

New update. PP gets 40 min, Smart gets 4 and Denis gets 4...

#18herewecome
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#92 » by Temuhjan » Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:22 pm

playa-hater wrote:New update. PP gets 40 min, Smart gets 4 and Denis gets 4...

#18herewecome

That would be the PG rotation when you are trying to tank. Ain't funny. :P
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#93 » by tfribs45 » Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:32 pm

Jingles2 wrote:
bisme37 wrote:
Jingles2 wrote:I think Payton should be our starting point guard this year and probably get about 30 minutes a game. Let Schroeder be the 6th man where he can play both guard positions and still get around 30 minutes. See what Smart is worth on the trade market. I like Smart, but not as the starting point guard and not at 15+ million a year. If you can trade Smart then hold on to Dunn and see what he can provide as a defensive specialist and 3rd point guard.


Welcome to Celtics fandom if you've changed your team but I'm confused because aren't you a Jazz fan?


Jazz are my western conference team and I like the Celtics from the East.


Marcus and Dennis are your starting PG/SG, PP is no where near ready defensively... Cobra, Shroeder, PP, Dunn
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#94 » by ParticleMan » Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:39 pm

tfribs45 wrote:
Jingles2 wrote:
bisme37 wrote:
Welcome to Celtics fandom if you've changed your team but I'm confused because aren't you a Jazz fan?


Jazz are my western conference team and I like the Celtics from the East.


Marcus and Dennis are your starting PG/SG, PP is no where near ready defensively... Cobra, Shroeder, PP, Dunn


a pair of 33% 3pt shooters as your starting guards?

oof. this isn't the 1990's anymore.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#95 » by Matt5 » Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:30 pm

I guess the front office let us know that Marcus Smart is a starting point guard, by giving him that extension. Also, coach says he wants to start so... I still think that he is more combo than point guard. Hopefully, I am wrong. We do have alternatives if needed.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#96 » by truth18 » Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:37 pm

Jingles2 wrote:
bisme37 wrote:
Jingles2 wrote:I think Payton should be our starting point guard this year and probably get about 30 minutes a game. Let Schroeder be the 6th man where he can play both guard positions and still get around 30 minutes. See what Smart is worth on the trade market. I like Smart, but not as the starting point guard and not at 15+ million a year. If you can trade Smart then hold on to Dunn and see what he can provide as a defensive specialist and 3rd point guard.


Welcome to Celtics fandom if you've changed your team but I'm confused because aren't you a Jazz fan?


Jazz are my western conference team and I like the Celtics from the East.


Pick a team.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#97 » by Hal14 » Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:43 pm

ParticleMan wrote:
tfribs45 wrote:
Jingles2 wrote:
Jazz are my western conference team and I like the Celtics from the East.


Marcus and Dennis are your starting PG/SG, PP is no where near ready defensively... Cobra, Shroeder, PP, Dunn


a pair of 33% 3pt shooters as your starting guards?

oof. this isn't the 1990's anymore.

1) Well if the starters are smart/schroder/brown/tatum/horford, that would still leave us with 3 starters who shot 36% or higher from 3 last yr.

The Hawks had 3 starters (Collins, Huerter, Bogdanovic) shoot 36% or higher from 3.

The Bucks had 3 starters (Tucker, Middleton, Holiday) shoot 36% or higher from 3.

The Suns had 3 starters (Bridges, Paul, Crowder) shoot 36% or higher from 3.

3 seems to be the magic number and we're right there.

2) 2 yrs ago Schroder shot 38.5% from 3 so if we can revert back to that then we have 4 starters shooting 36% or higher from 3.

3) With that being said, my preferred starting 5 for this team is actually Smart/Richardson/Brown/Tatum/Horford which would still be 3 guys 36% or higher. But richardson for his career is just under 36% and has been over that mark twice.

4) Rather than just seeing this year's team as being weaker shooting, people need to realize how much better defensively we are likely to be. So even if we're making less shots, we'll likely be giving up a lot less points this year. Plus with Udoka's vow to improve ball movement, that should help our shooting % since guys will be taking cleaner looks at the basket which are less forced and more in rhythm than last yr.
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#98 » by The Comedian » Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:19 pm

truth18 wrote:
Jingles2 wrote:
bisme37 wrote:
Welcome to Celtics fandom if you've changed your team but I'm confused because aren't you a Jazz fan?


Jazz are my western conference team and I like the Celtics from the East.


Pick a team.


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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#99 » by truth18 » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:16 pm

The Comedian wrote:
truth18 wrote:
Jingles2 wrote:
Jazz are my western conference team and I like the Celtics from the East.


Pick a team.


Image

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Destroyed
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Re: Boston Celtics: Point Guard Rotation, 2021-22 

Post#100 » by Jingles2 » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:44 pm

truth18 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
truth18 wrote:
Pick a team.


Image

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Destroyed


Well if it was based on fans I'm not sure Boston would be in my top 25, but based on the team they are my current favorite. That, however, is subject to change depending on moves that are made.

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