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3rd best player

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Who will be our most productive player after Tatum/Brown next year?

Horford
8
11%
Smart
34
45%
Richardson
1
1%
Shroder
12
16%
Timelord
16
21%
Pritchard
3
4%
Nesmith
0
No votes
Juancho
2
3%
Romeo
0
No votes
Other (specify)
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 76

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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#21 » by Captain_Caveman » Thu Sep 9, 2021 2:25 am

darrendaye wrote:Case can be made for Horford, but I assume his abilities to defend perimeter players have declined with age. Given that, I'd say Smart. Love me some Timelord, but he still makes too many mistakes on defense to put him in the conversation imo. Definitely want to see some offensive diversity in his game this year too. Hope he's encouraged to do so.


Smart is a lot closer to Jaylen than Timelord is to Smart.

Anything can happen once the games start, but everything we know right now says that Marcus is obviously our 3rd best player, in the same way that Tatum and Jaylen are obviously 1st and 2nd, respectively. A more interesting question is who our 4th best player is.

I think it is Horford.
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#22 » by Hal14 » Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:16 pm

djFan71 wrote:
Spoiler:
Hal14 wrote:We don't have a clear cut 3rd star but it's okay because we have 5 guys who are potentially our 3rd best player whereas other teams might have a 3rd star but then they suck after their 4th or 5th guy.

Here's a case for each of the 5 guys:

Rob: I mean, if you just look at the advanced stats, he actually has a case for being our best player, or at the worst our 2nd best player - definitely no worse than 3rd. Last season he was top 10 in the entire NBA in offensive rating, defensive rating, BPM, Win Shares Per 48 Minutes, TS%, FG%, PER, Rebounding % and blocks %.

If we knew for certain that he'd play in over 90% of our games and average 30+ mins a game then this wouldn't even be a thread. It would be obviously Rob. But that's a huge if. So that's why all of these other guys below have a chance to be the 3rd best player, simply because there's a decent chance that each of them sees much more court time (between games played and mins per game) than Rob.

Al: Since Rob's health is such a concern, that opens the door for Al to get some good playing time. If you look at most of the advanced stat categories for last season, Al was statistically the 4th best celtic after Tatum/Brown/Rob. Despite getting up there in age, Al posted really good numbers across the board in OKC, including a very strong BPM of +3.3 which is actually higher than his career average of +2.8. That +3.3 BPM was actually higher than Jaylen Brown's +2.5. Rob and Tatum were the only Celtics last yr with a higher BPM. Al averaged 14.2 PPG last yr which was also higher than his career average. Based on the stats and the footage we have available of Al from last season, Al is still a very good defender so when you combine that with his shooting, passing and craftiness on dribble drive moves, post moves he clearly still has a good all around game. He has a good case as the 4th best player on the team and due to Rob's health issues, if Al is able to see more court time than Rob then one could say that Al is our 3rd best player

Smart: Potentially an all-NBA defense guy, will probably be starting PG - has potential to be a true facilitator of the offense, responsible to distributing the ball, controlling the pace, getting 10-12 PPG along with 6.5 - 7.5 APG as well as being the ehart and soul of the team. Finding the open man, but also making teams pay if they help off of him too much. Guarding the other team's best perimeter player. That's his case.

Richardson: Simply put, it's the combination, defense and passing from the wing as well as being a steady veteran with playoff experience. Has as good a shot as anyone to be our 3rd leading scorer. Who is gonna be our 3rd leading scorer? Probably either Smart, Schroder or Richardson. I mean, maybe Horford but there's questions about whether he will play enough (games played as well as mins per game) to really be considered our 3rd leading scorer. So if we're looking at schroder vs smart vs richardson, this video (around the 6:00 mark) talks about how in terms of points per FG attempt, Richardson has performed better than both Smart and Schroder, and also Smart and schroder will be counted on to do more distributing than richardson will.



Next we have Richardson's defense. Defensively he has the potential to be our 3rd best defender after rob and smart. And if you look at defensive impact (how good they are defensively while also accounting for how much they actually play in terms of games played and mins per game), Richardson could end up being 2nd on that list - maybe even 1st since Smart has missed more time to injury over the past few yrs than richardson has. So if you have a guy who could be our 3rd best scorer and also out 1st or 2nd most impactful defender, while also being a guy who you really don't have to worry about much with injuries, he at least has a shot to be our 3rd best player

Schroder: here's his case. In terms of scoring volume, no other celtic on the current roster has shown the ability to score in the type of volume during the past 3 seasons that Schroder has. Also, no celtic on the current roster has put up the type of assist % numbers that schroder has put up. So the potential is there for him to be our best assist man and our 3rd best scorer, while also being our fastest player (i don't think there's really much doubt he's the fastest guy on the team), a higher energy and a good defender. You put all of that together and he's at least in the conversation for being our 3rd best player.

I agree with most/all of that.... but missed the part where you picked one. Who you got?

haha good question. I honestly don't know. I honestly think it could be any of the 5 of them. I want it to be Rob because that means he was able to be on the court enough of the time - I just don't know if that'll happen.

Gun to my head, I'd say Schroder. Or Smart :D
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#23 » by robbie84 » Thu Sep 9, 2021 2:47 pm

I'm gonna say either Smart or Schroeder but considering how few miles Al has had in the last 2 years he may really surprise us.

The sleeper for the title of our third best player this season is Robert Williams.
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#24 » by Hal14 » Thu Sep 9, 2021 3:09 pm

robbie84 wrote:I'm gonna say either Smart or Schroeder but considering how few miles Al has had in the last 2 years he may really surprise us.

The sleeper for the title of our third best player this season is Robert Williams.

I agree that Al could really surprise us. He did played pretty good last yr in OKC. He is well rested, he's pumped to be back in boston and I think he's motivated to show he still has some gas left in the tank, he wants to prove he has at least 1 more good year left in him. He's also probably motivated to make the hall of fame. I don't know if he is a hall of famer now - probably would just miss the cut but if he can have 1 or 2 more really good years here in boston then that could get him in.

I don't know if rob is really a sleeper. We all know he's the third best player on this team. It's overwhelming when you look at the analytics. The question is, will he play enough games and play enough mins per game to be considered the 3rd best player? IDK, but I wouldn't call him a sleeper.

I think the people getting the most love in this thread are smart and schroder and to some extent Rob and then Al. So if anything I might call Richardson a sleeper..
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#25 » by playa-hater » Thu Sep 9, 2021 4:15 pm

Ceiling it's Timelord, and I don't know if that can be argued. but it will of course. But floor "should" definitely be Smart.

So for the sake of argument, *IF* people agreed with my Ceiling and Floor declaration. who should take the prize? a guaranteed floor or a potential ceiling?
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#26 » by Spin Move » Thu Sep 9, 2021 5:05 pm

Clearly Nesmith......JK, on a good marcus smart day it is marcus smart, on a bad markus smart day its dennis schroeder, I would love to say Rob, but given his injury history he lacks the most important ability in a basketball player availability. The Ghost of Al Horford is 4th.
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#27 » by FlatearthZorro » Thu Sep 9, 2021 8:46 pm

gocelts wrote:Smart….but Schroder or Pritchard could sneak into the conversation next year.

Problem is, Smarts not even our best “point guard” or “shooting guard”. He’s just a better overall player so he just plays “guard”.


If Schroeder or Pritchard become better than Smart, that wouldn't be good for us.

If Horford is motivated, I think he's a far superior all around player than Marcus. But Horford's 35.
Good assessment:

PLO wrote:Tatum played OK - took advantage of a few mismatches - decent on the defensive end. He is what we thought he was going into the season - a technically very proficient player operating close to his career ceiling as a rookie.
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#28 » by GoGreen » Thu Sep 9, 2021 10:54 pm

I voted Rob. I am not a fan of Smarts game, but I think if he takes to new coaching, and plays more like he did in 18-19, he'll be very important. But 3rd best? Idk about that.
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#29 » by Celts17Pride » Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:04 am

Smart, easy choice
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#30 » by TommyForever » Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:26 am

Real poll is who is 4th best:

I’d vote GRondo
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#31 » by Parliament10 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:12 pm

Looks like Smart is going to be our 3rd Best player this year?
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#32 » by AKFO » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:39 pm

I went Smart, and there's a lot of players with a case, but I think Schroder might be getting slept on a little here. He can get into the paint very easily, score, and kickout to open shooters. We were lacking players like that last year. I hope he comes off the bench to more or less stay out of the Jays' way, but if you give him the ball he'll be productive with it.
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#33 » by sam_I_am » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:42 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
darrendaye wrote:Case can be made for Horford, but I assume his abilities to defend perimeter players have declined with age. Given that, I'd say Smart. Love me some Timelord, but he still makes too many mistakes on defense to put him in the conversation imo. Definitely want to see some offensive diversity in his game this year too. Hope he's encouraged to do so.


Smart is a lot closer to Jaylen than Timelord is to Smart.

Anything can happen once the games start, but everything we know right now says that Marcus is obviously our 3rd best player, in the same way that Tatum and Jaylen are obviously 1st and 2nd, respectively. A more interesting question is who our 4th best player is.

I think it is Horford.


I think I disagree. I think gap between Tatum and Brown and rest of team is large.

However, I am excited that our 3rd best player Smart is actually not much better than our 7th best player. Smart, Horford, Richardson and Shroeder are all fairly close in ability assuming we get that same Big Al as last season. Rob Williams is probably 8th best player based on totality of last year but if he is consistently as good as he was in playoffs and can actually play 70 games....this team is deeper than its been since Kyrie era. I also think the fact that top 8 players are all plus defenders is an underrated improvement.

To me, the last 2 years since Kyrie left has been about how big the drop-off after top 3 players was - especially come playoff time. Hayward was never available and Walker got hurt too and was not the same. There were a few times when Brad Wannamaker was a top 4 player in a playoff game.
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#34 » by Hal14 » Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:26 am

sam_I_am wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
darrendaye wrote:Case can be made for Horford, but I assume his abilities to defend perimeter players have declined with age. Given that, I'd say Smart. Love me some Timelord, but he still makes too many mistakes on defense to put him in the conversation imo. Definitely want to see some offensive diversity in his game this year too. Hope he's encouraged to do so.


Smart is a lot closer to Jaylen than Timelord is to Smart.

Anything can happen once the games start, but everything we know right now says that Marcus is obviously our 3rd best player, in the same way that Tatum and Jaylen are obviously 1st and 2nd, respectively. A more interesting question is who our 4th best player is.

I think it is Horford.


I think I disagree. I think gap between Tatum and Brown and rest of team is large.

However, I am excited that our 3rd best player Smart is actually not much better than our 7th best player. Smart, Horford, Richardson and Shroeder are all fairly close in ability assuming we get that same Big Al as last season. Rob Williams is probably 8th best player based on totality of last year but if he is consistently as good as he was in playoffs and can actually play 70 games....this team is deeper than its been since Kyrie era. I also think the fact that top 8 players are all plus defenders is an underrated improvement.

To me, the last 2 years since Kyrie left has been about how big the drop-off after top 3 players was - especially come playoff time. Hayward was never available and Walker got hurt too and was not the same. There were a few times when Brad Wannamaker was a top 4 player in a playoff game.

I think your math is off here.

I bolded the players you listed who are on our current roster. There's 7 names in bold. But you said Rob Williams is our 8th best player and that all 8 of them are plus defenders. But it's actually 7 players - not 8. Does that change your opinion that this is our deepest team since Kyrie era?
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#35 » by sully00 » Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:15 am

From a production standpoint then Rob Williams he is going to put up huge numbers and impact the defensive side of the ball more than anyone else. Schroder will likely be the 3rd scorer. I think this team will play a lot better with Al on the floor than off. All that said Smart could still be this team's 3rd best or 3rd most important player even if those guys do all those things. It seems like the less you are relying on Marcus to do this or that for you the more he can impact the bottom line.
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#36 » by bucknersrevenge » Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:04 am

Definitely this guy. Really think he's gonna shock the league with just how good he will be at PG. In his prime, better, more experienced talent around him, Mighty Mouse on the coaching staff. Look out. Want to see him dealing from that block a bit more too.

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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#37 » by Parliament10 » Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:38 am

bucknersrevenge wrote:Definitely this guy. Really think he's gonna shock the league with just how good he will be at PG. In his prime, better, more experienced talent around him, Mighty Mouse on the coaching staff. Look out. Want to see him dealing from that block a bit more too.


Love this video. -- Smart has some nifty passes.
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#38 » by ddb » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:48 pm

Wow. Great question. I think we can all agree that there's a huge gulf between Tatum/Brown and then the rest of the roster. After those two at the top you can realistically bunch 4-5 guys together and make an argument for each one being the 3rd best player on the team. 3rd Best player and 3rd most impactful player can very well be 2 different things.

I'd say the second tier of "best" players on the roster are: Horford, Smart, Williams, Richardson, Schroder.

My choice is Al Horford. Listen, I understand that he's 35 years old....but he's never been a leaper, or an injury plagued guy. He's always been a fundamentally sound complete player for his position. Whether he starts or comes off the bench, I can absolutely see Al being the glue to this team. He stretches the floor, he's an excellent passer, he's an excellent communicator, he knows how to play the P&R offensively and defensively. He's a former multiple time All-Star. He's the 3rd "best" or "most impactful" player.

Smart is going to get a lot of votes. He plays an important position. He's the best defender. So if he embraces the PG responsibilities and changes his game a bit and focuses more on complimenting the players around him, then he could easily be the 3rd "best" or "most impactful" player. But I have some doubts that he will change his game....We shall see

Timelord has the upside to be the 3rd best player. I worry about his durability and conditioning. He's a great athlete, but he's huffing and puffing after a 4 minute stint on the floor. That's why I like him coming off the bench more then I do starting. When he's healthy his natural ability is off the charts. RIM running, shot blocking, passing....His reach. he's awesome.

The don't sleep on me guys are Schroder & Richardson. both of these guys are coming off of lousy seasons. Both are talented, both can score, both are in "show me" seasons where I fully expect the best of out of them. Schroder is hands down the 3rd best scorer on the roster...but he needs to defend, know his role, and play within the system in order to peak and become the 3rd best player. Richardson needs to make 3's, defend multiple positions at a high level, and thrive has a secondary ball handler to get back to his Miami days and become the 3rd best player. Doubtful that 1 of these guys ends up being the 3rd best player on the roster, but absolutely possible I suppose.

My choice is Horford
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#39 » by sam_I_am » Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:35 pm

Hal14 wrote:
sam_I_am wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
Smart is a lot closer to Jaylen than Timelord is to Smart.

Anything can happen once the games start, but everything we know right now says that Marcus is obviously our 3rd best player, in the same way that Tatum and Jaylen are obviously 1st and 2nd, respectively. A more interesting question is who our 4th best player is.

I think it is Horford.


I think I disagree. I think gap between Tatum and Brown and rest of team is large.

However, I am excited that our 3rd best player Smart is actually not much better than our 7th best player. Smart, Horford, Richardson and Shroeder are all fairly close in ability assuming we get that same Big Al as last season. Rob Williams is probably 8th best player based on totality of last year but if he is consistently as good as he was in playoffs and can actually play 70 games....this team is deeper than its been since Kyrie era. I also think the fact that top 8 players are all plus defenders is an underrated improvement.

To me, the last 2 years since Kyrie left has been about how big the drop-off after top 3 players was - especially come playoff time. Hayward was never available and Walker got hurt too and was not the same. There were a few times when Brad Wannamaker was a top 4 player in a playoff game.

I think your math is off here.

I bolded the players you listed who are on our current roster. There's 7 names in bold. But you said Rob Williams is our 8th best player and that all 8 of them are plus defenders. But it's actually 7 players - not 8. Does that change your opinion that this is our deepest team since Kyrie era?


No but you are right about fuzzy math.

I pretty much agree with ddb post above. 7 deep with versatility, no black holes on defense and 2 quality bigs is plenty and something we have never had in Brad era.

Ceiling may be lower than with other teams but I think the compete level and balance and the possibility (remains to be seen) of 2 all star caliber players has the chance to combine the grit and tenacity of the Scary Terry ECF team with the promise of more talented ones.

There is still the hope that RW, Pritchard, Nesmith and Langford could take big leaps forward too but whether they do or not won’t necessarily matter come playoff time.
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Re: 3rd best player 

Post#40 » by Dannyboy36 » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:17 pm

I think we’re 7 deep too. I like Pritchard but I think he’ll always struggle to gain separation and good defenses can gobble him up. 3 of our best 7 also came t really shoot the ball. I’m gonna vote Horford.

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