Who you got? Consider the entire regular season and playoff impact (so missing games matters). Quibble with Tatum & Brown being top 2 if you wanna be a spoilsport.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Wed Sep 8, 2021 6:38 am
by Fencer reregistered
djFan71 wrote:Who you got? Consider the entire regular season and playoff impact (so missing games matters). Quibble with Tatum & Brown being top 2 if you wanna be a spoilsport.
If you mean true impact rather than just counting stats I'll go with Timelord, availability notwithstanding. If it's just counting stats, his availability issues put his ranking in more doubt.
The Nets were flummoxed by him, and our current head coach then worked for the Nets.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Wed Sep 8, 2021 7:34 am
by captain green
I'm going smart not much arguing I can see horford timelord and even grondo arguments being legit but I'm going with smarts 1st real chance at top pg and focused year of his career.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Wed Sep 8, 2021 8:02 am
by Captain_Caveman
The only thing that makes me more sad than realizing Marcus is our 3rd best player is knowing that most of the posters here won't, even if it is beyond obvious (as it probably will be).
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Wed Sep 8, 2021 10:20 am
by Fencer reregistered
Captain_Caveman wrote:The only thing that makes me more sad than realizing Marcus is our 3rd best player is knowing that most of the posters here won't, even if it is beyond obvious (as it probably will be).
I'm being a bit old-school here. I think a shot-altering center really, really matters IF he's also a plus defender in other contexts. That's been true as written since Russell was a rookie. What changes over time is what the "other contexts" are.
That said -- could Smart take a major offensive jump with a newly unambiguous offensive role? It's possible, and I greatly hope it happens. But my bet for the title question is something like 40% Williams, 30% Smart, 10% Horford, 10% Schroeder, 5% Nesmith, and 5% everybody else (mainly Pritchard).
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Wed Sep 8, 2021 10:55 am
by Henesey
Smart for now, but it's Timelord if he can stay healthy and play more minutes.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Wed Sep 8, 2021 12:00 pm
by dans1230
Unfortunately Smart, which is why we wont be very good. On the plus side though, our worse player this year will be better than our worse player this year. Thats kind of the theme for this years Celtics team, less top heavy and a little more rounded out.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Wed Sep 8, 2021 12:38 pm
by darrendaye
Case can be made for Horford, but I assume his abilities to defend perimeter players have declined with age. Given that, I'd say Smart. Love me some Timelord, but he still makes too many mistakes on defense to put him in the conversation imo. Definitely want to see some offensive diversity in his game this year too. Hope he's encouraged to do so.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Wed Sep 8, 2021 1:46 pm
by Fencer reregistered
darrendaye wrote:Case can be made for Horford, but I assume his abilities to defend perimeter players have declined with age. Given that, I'd say Smart. Love me some Timelord, but he still makes too many mistakes on defense to put him in the conversation imo. Definitely want to see some offensive diversity in his game this year too. Hope he's encouraged to do so.
Defense gets a lot easier when your teammates play good defense too. When your teammates are playing good defense you have to make fewer and easier reads than otherwise.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Wed Sep 8, 2021 4:03 pm
by djFan71
I'd love for it to be Richardson. But, by default I went Smart.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Wed Sep 8, 2021 4:37 pm
by cl2117
In an ideal world: Timelord
If Robert Williams can play 25-30 minutes at the same level he's been able to in shorter stints, the C's have a fringe 3rd star. I'm not saying he will be able to do that, but that's clearly his ceiling. So if at the end of the season he's considered our 3rd best player, I think we just might have vaulted into sneaky contender status.
Realistically: Smart
Smart is the obvious choice. He's consistent, he's tough, he's the heart and soul of the team usually. He had a down year defensively, but I'm expecting a bounce back given that he's got a better team around him. Offensively I'm hoping he doesn't try to be the answer and gets stuck into the minutes he's running the point. At his best he's first team all defense, that's a good 3rd banana.
If Smart is our 3rd best player at the end of the year, we're likely exactly where we thought we'd be. Good team, not a real contender, but with building block pieces (two thirds of a tripod). Smart playing well on his new deal might be the trade value boost we need to land a much bigger fish.
Pessimistically: Horford
I'm a big Al fan, but if he ends up as our third best player, things will not have gone well for us. He might have enough left in the tank for that to be the case, but that'd also mean Smart continues to regress, Timelord doesn't make a leap and none of the other kids end up as a surprise breakout. I'm afraid father time is coming for Al so even if he plays outstandingly, his ceiling isn't very high. Plus even if he ends up being our 3rd best player, he still won't have good trade value. If it was anyone else but him and Schroder basically at least we'll have ended the year with a nice asset to dangle.
I'm guessing Smart, but praying for Timelord.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Wed Sep 8, 2021 4:54 pm
by bucknersrevenge
Yeah I definitely think it's Marcus, though from a scoring standpoint, the 3rd best scorer on the team could vary from night to night. That said, with the ball in his hands more I see Smart pushing his splits up to 15/7.5/3.5 on 43/35/87 numbers.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Wed Sep 8, 2021 6:19 pm
by Hal14
We don't have a clear cut 3rd star but it's okay because we have 5 guys who are potentially our 3rd best player whereas other teams might have a 3rd star but then they suck after their 4th or 5th guy.
Here's a case for each of the 5 guys:
Rob: I mean, if you just look at the advanced stats, he actually has a case for being our best player, or at the worst our 2nd best player - definitely no worse than 3rd. Last season he was top 10 in the entire NBA in offensive rating, defensive rating, BPM, Win Shares Per 48 Minutes, TS%, FG%, PER, Rebounding % and blocks %.
If we knew for certain that he'd play in over 90% of our games and average 30+ mins a game then this wouldn't even be a thread. It would be obviously Rob. But that's a huge if. So that's why all of these other guys below have a chance to be the 3rd best player, simply because there's a decent chance that each of them sees much more court time (between games played and mins per game) than Rob.
Al: Since Rob's health is such a concern, that opens the door for Al to get some good playing time. If you look at most of the advanced stat categories for last season, Al was statistically the 4th best celtic after Tatum/Brown/Rob. Despite getting up there in age, Al posted really good numbers across the board in OKC, including a very strong BPM of +3.3 which is actually higher than his career average of +2.8. That +3.3 BPM was actually higher than Jaylen Brown's +2.5. Rob and Tatum were the only Celtics last yr with a higher BPM. Al averaged 14.2 PPG last yr which was also higher than his career average. Based on the stats and the footage we have available of Al from last season, Al is still a very good defender so when you combine that with his shooting, passing and craftiness on dribble drive moves, post moves he clearly still has a good all around game. He has a good case as the 4th best player on the team and due to Rob's health issues, if Al is able to see more court time than Rob then one could say that Al is our 3rd best player
Smart: Potentially an all-NBA defense guy, will probably be starting PG - has potential to be a true facilitator of the offense, responsible to distributing the ball, controlling the pace, getting 10-12 PPG along with 6.5 - 7.5 APG as well as being the ehart and soul of the team. Finding the open man, but also making teams pay if they help off of him too much. Guarding the other team's best perimeter player. That's his case.
Richardson: Simply put, it's the combination, defense and passing from the wing as well as being a steady veteran with playoff experience. Has as good a shot as anyone to be our 3rd leading scorer. Who is gonna be our 3rd leading scorer? Probably either Smart, Schroder or Richardson. I mean, maybe Horford but there's questions about whether he will play enough (games played as well as mins per game) to really be considered our 3rd leading scorer. So if we're looking at schroder vs smart vs richardson, this video (around the 6:00 mark) talks about how in terms of points per FG attempt, Richardson has performed better than both Smart and Schroder, and also Smart and schroder will be counted on to do more distributing than richardson will.
Next we have Richardson's defense. Defensively he has the potential to be our 3rd best defender after rob and smart. And if you look at defensive impact (how good they are defensively while also accounting for how much they actually play in terms of games played and mins per game), Richardson could end up being 2nd on that list - maybe even 1st since Smart has missed more time to injury over the past few yrs than richardson has. So if you have a guy who could be our 3rd best scorer and also out 1st or 2nd most impactful defender, while also being a guy who you really don't have to worry about much with injuries, he at least has a shot to be our 3rd best player
Schroder: here's his case. In terms of scoring volume, no other celtic on the current roster has shown the ability to score in the type of volume during the past 3 seasons that Schroder has. Also, no celtic on the current roster has put up the type of assist % numbers that schroder has put up. So the potential is there for him to be our best assist man and our 3rd best scorer, while also being our fastest player (i don't think there's really much doubt he's the fastest guy on the team), a higher energy and a good defender. You put all of that together and he's at least in the conversation for being our 3rd best player.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Wed Sep 8, 2021 11:21 pm
by djFan71
Spoiler:
Hal14 wrote:We don't have a clear cut 3rd star but it's okay because we have 5 guys who are potentially our 3rd best player whereas other teams might have a 3rd star but then they suck after their 4th or 5th guy.
Here's a case for each of the 5 guys:
Rob: I mean, if you just look at the advanced stats, he actually has a case for being our best player, or at the worst our 2nd best player - definitely no worse than 3rd. Last season he was top 10 in the entire NBA in offensive rating, defensive rating, BPM, Win Shares Per 48 Minutes, TS%, FG%, PER, Rebounding % and blocks %.
If we knew for certain that he'd play in over 90% of our games and average 30+ mins a game then this wouldn't even be a thread. It would be obviously Rob. But that's a huge if. So that's why all of these other guys below have a chance to be the 3rd best player, simply because there's a decent chance that each of them sees much more court time (between games played and mins per game) than Rob.
Al: Since Rob's health is such a concern, that opens the door for Al to get some good playing time. If you look at most of the advanced stat categories for last season, Al was statistically the 4th best celtic after Tatum/Brown/Rob. Despite getting up there in age, Al posted really good numbers across the board in OKC, including a very strong BPM of +3.3 which is actually higher than his career average of +2.8. That +3.3 BPM was actually higher than Jaylen Brown's +2.5. Rob and Tatum were the only Celtics last yr with a higher BPM. Al averaged 14.2 PPG last yr which was also higher than his career average. Based on the stats and the footage we have available of Al from last season, Al is still a very good defender so when you combine that with his shooting, passing and craftiness on dribble drive moves, post moves he clearly still has a good all around game. He has a good case as the 4th best player on the team and due to Rob's health issues, if Al is able to see more court time than Rob then one could say that Al is our 3rd best player
Smart: Potentially an all-NBA defense guy, will probably be starting PG - has potential to be a true facilitator of the offense, responsible to distributing the ball, controlling the pace, getting 10-12 PPG along with 6.5 - 7.5 APG as well as being the ehart and soul of the team. Finding the open man, but also making teams pay if they help off of him too much. Guarding the other team's best perimeter player. That's his case.
Richardson: Simply put, it's the combination, defense and passing from the wing as well as being a steady veteran with playoff experience. Has as good a shot as anyone to be our 3rd leading scorer. Who is gonna be our 3rd leading scorer? Probably either Smart, Schroder or Richardson. I mean, maybe Horford but there's questions about whether he will play enough (games played as well as mins per game) to really be considered our 3rd leading scorer. So if we're looking at schroder vs smart vs richardson, this video (around the 6:00 mark) talks about how in terms of points per FG attempt, Richardson has performed better than both Smart and Schroder, and also Smart and schroder will be counted on to do more distributing than richardson will.
Next we have Richardson's defense. Defensively he has the potential to be our 3rd best defender after rob and smart. And if you look at defensive impact (how good they are defensively while also accounting for how much they actually play in terms of games played and mins per game), Richardson could end up being 2nd on that list - maybe even 1st since Smart has missed more time to injury over the past few yrs than richardson has. So if you have a guy who could be our 3rd best scorer and also out 1st or 2nd most impactful defender, while also being a guy who you really don't have to worry about much with injuries, he at least has a shot to be our 3rd best player
Schroder: here's his case. In terms of scoring volume, no other celtic on the current roster has shown the ability to score in the type of volume during the past 3 seasons that Schroder has. Also, no celtic on the current roster has put up the type of assist % numbers that schroder has put up. So the potential is there for him to be our best assist man and our 3rd best scorer, while also being our fastest player (i don't think there's really much doubt he's the fastest guy on the team), a higher energy and a good defender. You put all of that together and he's at least in the conversation for being our 3rd best player.
I agree with most/all of that.... but missed the part where you picked one. Who you got?
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Wed Sep 8, 2021 11:31 pm
by Tatumfor2
I voted Rob and then read your caveat regarding health.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Thu Sep 9, 2021 12:18 am
by Shak_Celts
MARCUS "MF" SMART!
You didn't hear this from me, but Samuel L. accidentally said "Smart" when he was supposed to say "Shaft" and the producers almost changed the name of the franchise. Even Richard Roundtree was onboard with the change. The only reason they didn't change it was because they didn't want to pay Mahcus!!
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Thu Sep 9, 2021 12:38 am
by gocelts
Smart….but Schroder or Pritchard could sneak into the conversation next year.
Problem is, Smarts not even our best “point guard” or “shooting guard”. He’s just a better overall player so he just plays “guard”.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:14 am
by Ed Pinkney
At the moment, I think you can throw a blanket over Smart, Robert Williams, Horford, Richardson and Schroder, as I don't think there is very much separating them at the moment (in theory).
This could be considered a good thing (good spread of talent and balance to the roster) or a bad thing (there is not enough top end talent on the roster). At the moment as the eternal Celtics optimist, I lean towards the former.
Pressed to pick one player, I probably go with Smart. The new coach, the new contract, the removal of Irving/Walker/Hayward in front of him..... I could definitely see him having his best season of his career.
Talent and potential impact wise, there is definitely a world in which Rob Williams or even Nesmith becomes the third best player on the team by the end of the season if either one of them made one of those leaps into high level NBA consistency, as both of them have some game changing ability.
There is also some Schroder possibility here in my opinion. The slap in the face of the contract situation after turning down the Lakers offer, a later career move away from some of the negative aspects that have dogged him since coming into the league. He could be really, really good. He could also be the apparent douche he has been in the past that only plays one year with the Celtics (or less if he is part of a trade).
I am really looking forward to this coming season. It is largely due to the new toy shininess of the coaching change and a bunch of new players. The reality once the games start might end up being quite different, but at the moment I am excited. I wish the games were starting next week.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Thu Sep 9, 2021 1:59 am
by moonie_mcgee
I think it'll be Schroeder. Nearly tied with Smart but I'll go with Dennis for his offensive impact. He might score 20+ this season and he's a quick scrappy defender. Hopefully Smart plays as a true point which I think he will.
Re: 3rd best player
Posted: Thu Sep 9, 2021 2:10 am
by moonie_mcgee
Scoring shouldn't be an issue this year and itll need to be higher than last year for us to compete with the top teams. Defensively we'll be much better in both the paint, on the perimeter and most importantly in transition. To turn around last seasons performance we must compete against our peers for 48 minutes and blow out teams we should crush. Play at a high level against everyone rather than playing to the level of the competition. Hopefully the new roster and staff with deliver.
