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Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition

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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#621 » by Shak_Celts » Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:43 pm

playa-hater wrote:
Shak_Celts wrote:Smart and I don't give a damn what anyone thinks, WE'RE HERE!!! Yeah, I'm biased, and what?! My heart is gonna lead the way because I don't do stats, wouldn't know where to look for more than rudimentary ones anyway.


when I was in college way back when, there were no computers and no number crunching stats like now. So I am with you in that. WE did watch a Ton of game film. So my eyes were trained to use "my eyes".

With that said, my eyes say Smart has a real value to us. But I also believe Smart's value would be exponentially higher as a sixth man. I liked the, "if we were struggling a bit" send in Smart and the team's energy kicks up a notch. we don't have that "kick up" notch since Smart has been a starter.

Damn just thinking how Smart and Nesmith off the bench could jolt up our energies :o :noway: :nonono: :banghead:


Yeah, I love Smart, HE IS POSITIVE on the court as a starter but I still want a PG. Some of it could be solved by inserting someone for Al (jrich/nesmith/Romeo). I know you want Pritch, I'll let you have that :lol:, but I still think we could use someone else because I think Pritch is a SG.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#622 » by Fencer reregistered » Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:46 pm

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Isn’t 8-17 too small of a sample size to make any judgements?


Yes.

I'm not sure what the standard deviation would be here -- which is embarrassing since I taught statistics in summer school once -- but it's not trivial.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#623 » by zoyathedestroya » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:22 pm

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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#624 » by sam_I_am » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:02 pm

Smart is not really the problem with the team. Getting rid of him won’t fix what is wrong with this team. However, as a starter he hasn’t been the solution either. We have to admit that so far he has not taken his game to another level with added responsibility.

We need to add a plus playmaker/scoring threat to starting 5 and move Smart or one of bigs to bench, or add an elite 3 point shooter to backcourt or PF and make Schroeder the starting PG. Problem with Schroeder is that he is a 1/2 year rental at this point.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#625 » by playa-hater » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:12 pm

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did you post this to torture/troll me. The heat and Grizz near the top with all those young nobody players given a chance. That is salt in my wounds..
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#626 » by bucknersrevenge » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:38 pm

All this talk about "getting rid of Smart" or moving Smart to a 6th man role is silly for all the reasons it has been silly all year. There are a multitude of issues with this team, the least of which is lineup consistency due to H&S protocols. Our starting 5 is among the least used starting 5's in the league. Tatum has not shot the ball well. Al has not shot the ball well. I could go down the list and that includes Marcus as well. But...

talking about moving on from Marcus is not the same as doing, and unless a legit option is available it's kind of just spinning wheels. Nobody says Marcus is untradeable, and that includes his fans, but no better option is available right now. And you can't move him back to the 6th man on this team. You might as well trade him if you find a better option because Marcus will not co-sign to be a bench guy on this team again. No chance. And if you were paying attention at all to the quotes coming out of the negotiating table when he signed this last deal, you know what I'm talking about.

If a better option comes available maybe it's worth considering. But there isn't and Marcus' shooting is nowhere near the biggest issue on this team. Not even close. Personally, I'm still waiting to see Marcus as THE primary ballhandler on a team without having to share the backcourt duties with another inefficient, ball-dominant guard like Kemba and Schroder. PP and players like him are good complements to Smart because they just space but I just want to evaluate Smart as the primary guy for a longer stretch. In some ways, despite the fact that he has been pretty good as a starter, Dennis has not fit in well with this team. I just want Marcus to get the shot he asked for this offseason.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#627 » by The Comedian » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:57 pm

Just to give an idea of how cold Tatum started out the season, since the start of December, he’s averaged 27.5 PPG on a 59% TS….and he’s still at 54% for the season.

The ISO thing has also become a bit more of a narrative than reality. When December started, Tatum was going ISO 23.5% of the time, and was averaging .80 PPP. Since then he’s cut his ISO down to 19.5% of the time, and is up to .90 PPP. Better than guys like Luka, PG, Siakam, Trae (though Trae does it way less than the rest of the guys). LeBron is at .90 himself, Giannis and Randle are at .91 and both go ISO more than Tatum. And as of now, JT is in the 78th percentile in ISO PPP for the season.

Yeah some of his ISO possessions are frustrating, but it also draws multiple defenders and leads to open looks for other guys.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#628 » by bucknersrevenge » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:43 pm

Just a reminder that no team has gotten the sh*t kicked out of them by Covid more than us this season. And you can probably tack on last season too while you're at it. Makes it difficult to evaluate your team. Makes it difficult to build consistency. It's not an excuse for everything but this is not a narrative most of the simple-minded Boston media is willing to entertain.

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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#629 » by Larry_Russell » Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:53 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:Just a reminder that no team has gotten the sh*t kicked out of them by Covid more than us this season. And you can probably tack on last season too while you're at it. Makes it difficult to evaluate your team. Makes it difficult to build consistency. It's not an excuse for everything but this is not a narrative most of the simple-minded Boston media is willing to entertain.

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Can we blame this on the medical staff too?

Cause they suck
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#630 » by bucknersrevenge » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:19 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:Just a reminder that no team has gotten the sh*t kicked out of them by Covid more than us this season. And you can probably tack on last season too while you're at it. Makes it difficult to evaluate your team. Makes it difficult to build consistency. It's not an excuse for everything but this is not a narrative most of the simple-minded Boston media is willing to entertain.

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Can we blame this on the medical staff too?

Cause they suck


Not sure. There are a ton of variables to consider when dealing with Covid, especially this more recent strain which was more contagious, even if it was maybe less virulent. Even if you were vaccinated, you still got this last strain.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#631 » by Shak_Celts » Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:18 am

IKYFL, who told them to put Cs on at 12:30pm????? Early games are TERRIBLE for my soul!!
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#632 » by threrf23 » Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:02 am

Shak_Celts wrote:IKYFL, who told them to put Cs on at 12:30pm????? Early games are TERRIBLE for my soul!!


10:30 am for me
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#633 » by zoyathedestroya » Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:30 pm

Next seven games are very winnable. Which just means we'll go 3-4 during this stretch.

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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#634 » by keevsnick1 » Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:47 pm

The Comedian wrote:Just to give an idea of how cold Tatum started out the season, since the start of December, he’s averaged 27.5 PPG on a 59% TS….and he’s still at 54% for the season.

The ISO thing has also become a bit more of a narrative than reality. When December started, Tatum was going ISO 23.5% of the time, and was averaging .80 PPP. Since then he’s cut his ISO down to 19.5% of the time, and is up to .90 PPP. Better than guys like Luka, PG, Siakam, Trae (though Trae does it way less than the rest of the guys). LeBron is at .90 himself, Giannis and Randle are at .91 and both go ISO more than Tatum. And as of now, JT is in the 78th percentile in ISO PPP for the season.

Yeah some of his ISO possessions are frustrating, but it also draws multiple defenders and leads to open looks for other guys.


Where are you getting your numbers? NBA.com play type data has basically all the same numbers but it has him in the 51st percentile for iso scoring this year, not the 78th.

Regardless the point still mostly stands, iso'ing to much hasn't really been the teams problem this year. Its three point shooting and associated spacing that's the issue.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#635 » by The Comedian » Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:52 pm

keevsnick1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:Just to give an idea of how cold Tatum started out the season, since the start of December, he’s averaged 27.5 PPG on a 59% TS….and he’s still at 54% for the season.

The ISO thing has also become a bit more of a narrative than reality. When December started, Tatum was going ISO 23.5% of the time, and was averaging .80 PPP. Since then he’s cut his ISO down to 19.5% of the time, and is up to .90 PPP. Better than guys like Luka, PG, Siakam, Trae (though Trae does it way less than the rest of the guys). LeBron is at .90 himself, Giannis and Randle are at .91 and both go ISO more than Tatum. And as of now, JT is in the 78th percentile in ISO PPP for the season.

Yeah some of his ISO possessions are frustrating, but it also draws multiple defenders and leads to open looks for other guys.


Where are you getting your numbers? NBA.com play type data has basically all the same numbers but it has him in the 51st percentile for iso scoring this year, not the 78th.

Regardless the point still mostly stands, iso'ing to much hasn't really been the teams problem this year. Its three point shooting and associated spacing that's the issue.


ISO scoring is broke down into multiple categories, bball index’s paid subscription shows each individual percentile. For overall ISO he’s in the 51st percentile, but for just iso PPP, he’s in the 78th.

But the overall point was since the first month of the season, he’s actually been quite good in ISO. I’d have to dig deeper, but I’d guess that since December 1st, he’s been one of the better high volume iso scorers in the league, while also cutting down how often he goes ISO. Which makes sense, as he’s picking his spots better. Where he’s been actually bad is posting up, is in the 7th percentile for post up PPP. Makes sense, when posting he settles for crap fadeaways, and we have poor spacing ontop of it.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#636 » by Shak_Celts » Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:20 pm

threrf23 wrote:
Shak_Celts wrote:IKYFL, who told them to put Cs on at 12:30pm????? Early games are TERRIBLE for my soul!!


10:30 am for me


Sorry about that, the devil is busy! :lol:
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#637 » by keevsnick1 » Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:21 pm

The Comedian wrote:
keevsnick1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:Just to give an idea of how cold Tatum started out the season, since the start of December, he’s averaged 27.5 PPG on a 59% TS….and he’s still at 54% for the season.

The ISO thing has also become a bit more of a narrative than reality. When December started, Tatum was going ISO 23.5% of the time, and was averaging .80 PPP. Since then he’s cut his ISO down to 19.5% of the time, and is up to .90 PPP. Better than guys like Luka, PG, Siakam, Trae (though Trae does it way less than the rest of the guys). LeBron is at .90 himself, Giannis and Randle are at .91 and both go ISO more than Tatum. And as of now, JT is in the 78th percentile in ISO PPP for the season.

Yeah some of his ISO possessions are frustrating, but it also draws multiple defenders and leads to open looks for other guys.


Where are you getting your numbers? NBA.com play type data has basically all the same numbers but it has him in the 51st percentile for iso scoring this year, not the 78th.

Regardless the point still mostly stands, iso'ing to much hasn't really been the teams problem this year. Its three point shooting and associated spacing that's the issue.


ISO scoring is broke down into multiple categories, bball index’s paid subscription shows each individual. For overall ISO he’s in the 51st percentile, but for just iso PPP, he’s in the 78th.

But the overall point was since the first month of the season, he’s actually been quite good in ISO. I’d have to dig deeper, but I’d guess that since December 1st, he’s been one of the better high volume iso scorers in the league, while also cutting down how often he goes ISO. Which makes sense, as he’s picking his spots better. Where he’s been actually bad is posting up, is in the 7th percentile for post up PPP. Makes sense, when posting he settles for crap fadeaways, and we have poor spacing ontop of it.


Ahhh okay, I can see how that would make sense. So as a question what's the difference between his ISO PP and the overall ISO? I assume that's just his PPP on shots/turnovers vs the team PPP off his Iso's. Which means either the team is making absolutely no shots off his iso passing, or he's passing it very little out of iso's, or both. In either case it would certainly help to get more shooters on the floor.

Either way, I'd still like to see him ISO less. Being "down" at 19.7% is nice, but its still the 6th highest in the league. I agree tho it isnt really the Celtics biggest problem.

I was surprised to see Jaylen Browns iso frequency at only 7.8% (2 times a game).

I think the Celtics problem is simple Last year they were 10th in offense, 10th in 3 point shooting. This year they are low 20's in offense, low 20's in 3 point shooting. Get shooters, play shooters, and the jays supposed ISO and passing issues will look better.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#638 » by The Comedian » Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:26 pm

keevsnick1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
keevsnick1 wrote:
Where are you getting your numbers? NBA.com play type data has basically all the same numbers but it has him in the 51st percentile for iso scoring this year, not the 78th.

Regardless the point still mostly stands, iso'ing to much hasn't really been the teams problem this year. Its three point shooting and associated spacing that's the issue.


ISO scoring is broke down into multiple categories, bball index’s paid subscription shows each individual. For overall ISO he’s in the 51st percentile, but for just iso PPP, he’s in the 78th.

But the overall point was since the first month of the season, he’s actually been quite good in ISO. I’d have to dig deeper, but I’d guess that since December 1st, he’s been one of the better high volume iso scorers in the league, while also cutting down how often he goes ISO. Which makes sense, as he’s picking his spots better. Where he’s been actually bad is posting up, is in the 7th percentile for post up PPP. Makes sense, when posting he settles for crap fadeaways, and we have poor spacing ontop of it.


Ahhh okay, I can see how that would make sense. So as a question what's the difference between his ISO PP and the overall ISO? I assume that's just his PPP on shots/turnovers vs the team PPP off his Iso's. Which means either the team is making absolutely no shots off his iso passing, or he's passing it very little out of iso's, or both. In either case it would certainly help to get more shooters on the floor.

Either way, I'd still like to see him ISO less. Being "down" at 19.7% is nice, but its still the 6th highest in the league. I agree tho it isnt really the Celtics biggest problem.

I was surprised to see Jaylen Browns iso frequency at only 7.8% (2 times a game).

I think the Celtics problem is simple Last year they were 10th in offense, 10th in 3 point shooting. This year they are low 20's in offense, low 20's in 3 point shooting. Get shooters, play shooters, and the jays supposed ISO and passing issues will look better.


So overall ISO takes a bunch of stuff into account. How often you turn it over, get to the line, score frequency, FG%, etc etc.

You’re right though, it’s shooting that’s really hurting the team. And Tatum along with Al are the biggest culprits there. I’ve pointed out for a couple of years that the people who say Jaylen goes ISO a lot are just making things up. I’d like to see Tatum down closer to 15-16%, but ISO is up across the board this year. And that may also play a part in why the league average TS is down 1.5% or so from last year.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#639 » by Shak_Celts » Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:36 pm

The Comedian wrote:
keevsnick1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
ISO scoring is broke down into multiple categories, bball index’s paid subscription shows each individual. For overall ISO he’s in the 51st percentile, but for just iso PPP, he’s in the 78th.

But the overall point was since the first month of the season, he’s actually been quite good in ISO. I’d have to dig deeper, but I’d guess that since December 1st, he’s been one of the better high volume iso scorers in the league, while also cutting down how often he goes ISO. Which makes sense, as he’s picking his spots better. Where he’s been actually bad is posting up, is in the 7th percentile for post up PPP. Makes sense, when posting he settles for crap fadeaways, and we have poor spacing ontop of it.


Ahhh okay, I can see how that would make sense. So as a question what's the difference between his ISO PP and the overall ISO? I assume that's just his PPP on shots/turnovers vs the team PPP off his Iso's. Which means either the team is making absolutely no shots off his iso passing, or he's passing it very little out of iso's, or both. In either case it would certainly help to get more shooters on the floor.

Either way, I'd still like to see him ISO less. Being "down" at 19.7% is nice, but its still the 6th highest in the league. I agree tho it isnt really the Celtics biggest problem.

I was surprised to see Jaylen Browns iso frequency at only 7.8% (2 times a game).

I think the Celtics problem is simple Last year they were 10th in offense, 10th in 3 point shooting. This year they are low 20's in offense, low 20's in 3 point shooting. Get shooters, play shooters, and the jays supposed ISO and passing issues will look better.


So overall ISO takes a bunch of stuff into account. How often you turn it over, get to the line, score frequency, FG%, etc etc.

You’re right though, it’s shooting that’s really hurting the team. And Tatum along with Al are the biggest culprits there. And I’ve pointed out for a couple of years that the people who say Jaylen goes ISO a lot are just making things up. And yeah I’d like to see Tatum down closer to 15-16%, but ISO is up across the board this year. And that may also play a part in why the league average TS is down 1.5% or so from last year.


I would expect TS and more to be down from last season, no one was defending. Is it down beyond the fluke of last season?

Yo... Al...? Like wth is happening there? Old age? I know "small" guys are playing late into their 30s, but maybe it's still a bad time for bigs. How is Al this bad at shooting? His shots are about as open as you're gonna get.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#640 » by The Comedian » Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:40 pm

Shak_Celts wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
keevsnick1 wrote:
Ahhh okay, I can see how that would make sense. So as a question what's the difference between his ISO PP and the overall ISO? I assume that's just his PPP on shots/turnovers vs the team PPP off his Iso's. Which means either the team is making absolutely no shots off his iso passing, or he's passing it very little out of iso's, or both. In either case it would certainly help to get more shooters on the floor.

Either way, I'd still like to see him ISO less. Being "down" at 19.7% is nice, but its still the 6th highest in the league. I agree tho it isnt really the Celtics biggest problem.

I was surprised to see Jaylen Browns iso frequency at only 7.8% (2 times a game).

I think the Celtics problem is simple Last year they were 10th in offense, 10th in 3 point shooting. This year they are low 20's in offense, low 20's in 3 point shooting. Get shooters, play shooters, and the jays supposed ISO and passing issues will look better.


So overall ISO takes a bunch of stuff into account. How often you turn it over, get to the line, score frequency, FG%, etc etc.

You’re right though, it’s shooting that’s really hurting the team. And Tatum along with Al are the biggest culprits there. And I’ve pointed out for a couple of years that the people who say Jaylen goes ISO a lot are just making things up. And yeah I’d like to see Tatum down closer to 15-16%, but ISO is up across the board this year. And that may also play a part in why the league average TS is down 1.5% or so from last year.


I would expect TS and more to be down from last season, no one was defending. Is it down beyond the fluke of last season?

Yo... Al...? Like wth is happening there? Old age? I know "small" guys are playing late into their 30s, but maybe it's still a bad time for bigs. How is Al this bad at shooting? His shots are about as open as you're gonna get.


Yeah I would guess it’s mainly a combo of nobody having defended last year, the new foul rules, and just…numbers fluctuate.

Al is a bit of a problem offensively, which bums me out. But they should use him as a playmaker more, give him some additional value.

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