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Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition

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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#221 » by zoyathedestroya » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:40 pm

ballup wrote:Is Smart part of the problem? Yeah, but him moving to starting lineup isn't some kind of magic hindrance to 3pt shooting. Smart has always played starter minutes or close to it. The problem is the Celtics shooters being cold and having too many below average shooters on the floor at once. Tatum shooting at 33% is no good and neither is Al shooting 28%. The issue is compounded when guys like Schroeder and Richardson also get so much burn being at 33%. Changing whether Smart starts or comes off the bench isn't all of a sudden going to turn around the shootong.

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Celtics 3-pt shooting is at its 2nd highest when Smart is on the floor. Only topped by Timelord being on the floor.

But who cares? This doesn't align with the anti-Smart agenda. So this stat doesn't matter. Also, we lost games. We gotta win all the games so Smart starting (or existing) can be justified.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#222 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:43 pm

The Comedian wrote:
Fierce1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
This is you misunderstanding stats. Yes they’re only 7-8, but what the stats show is that without Smart, they’d probably have half the wins.


https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-is-the-celtics-record-without-marcus-smart

Celts are 10 games over .500 without Smart all-time.


Celtics are 18 games over .500 without Jaylen, over his career.

Guess what? It doesn’t mean anything, and has absolutely nothing to do with this years team.


Why move the goal post?

This is about how many wins the Celts have without Smart.

You said the Celts would have only half the wins without Smart.

I just posted the Celtic record without Smart.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#223 » by The Comedian » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:43 pm

Fierce1 wrote:
ballup wrote:Is Smart part of the problem? Yeah, but him moving to starting lineup isn't some kind of magic hindrance to 3pt shooting. Smart has always played starter minutes or close to it. The problem is the Celtics shooters being cold and having too many below average shooters on the floor at once. Tatum shooting at 33% is no good and neither is Al shooting 28%. The issue is compounded when guys like Schroeder and Richardson also get so much burn being at 33%. Changing whether Smart starts or comes off the bench isn't all of a sudden going to turn around the shootong.

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You know why it matters?

Because Celts are having slow starts when Smart keeps missing 3-pointers in the 1st qtr.

Numerous times Celts fall behind early, this season, because of poor shooting.


Smart takes 1.9 threes in the first quarter this year, not nearly enough to have as much off as impact as you say.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#224 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:44 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:
ballup wrote:Is Smart part of the problem? Yeah, but him moving to starting lineup isn't some kind of magic hindrance to 3pt shooting. Smart has always played starter minutes or close to it. The problem is the Celtics shooters being cold and having too many below average shooters on the floor at once. Tatum shooting at 33% is no good and neither is Al shooting 28%. The issue is compounded when guys like Schroeder and Richardson also get so much burn being at 33%. Changing whether Smart starts or comes off the bench isn't all of a sudden going to turn around the shootong.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Celtics 3-pt shooting is at its 2nd highest when Smart is on the floor. Only topped by Timelord being on the floor.

But who cares? This doesn't align with the anti-Smart agenda. So this stat doesn't matter. Also, we lost games. We gotta win all the games so Smart starting (or existing) can be justified.


You're so wrong about the anti-Smart agenda.

Is it not true that the Celts have numerous games this season that the Celts start slow in the 1st qtr. because of poor shooting?

What makes it anti-Smart is if the Celts are winning and Smart is playing well and Celtic fans still complain about how bad Marcus Smart is.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#225 » by The Comedian » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:45 pm

Fierce1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
Fierce1 wrote:
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-is-the-celtics-record-without-marcus-smart

Celts are 10 games over .500 without Smart all-time.


Celtics are 18 games over .500 without Jaylen, over his career.

Guess what? It doesn’t mean anything, and has absolutely nothing to do with this years team.


Why move the goal post?

This is about how many wins the Celts have without Smart.

You said the Celts would have only half the wins without Smart.

I just posted the Celtic record without Smart.


Because those numbers mean nothing, and have nothing to do with this years team.

Celtics net rating is 19 points worse when Smart sits, than when he plays. Their offensive rating when he plays is 15 points better than when he sits. So he’s actually made the offense much better, so far.

You want to continue being willfully obtuse, go ahead. But it’s hard to take anything you say seriously, because you’re very clearly ignoring reality.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#226 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:48 pm

The Comedian wrote:Smart takes 1.9 threes in the first quarter this year, not nearly enough to have as much off as impact as you say.


That's because your stats don't show what happens after Smart misses.

Yes, it's just 1.9 threes in the 1st qtr.

But if the opposing team is just ahead by 4 points and Smart ends up missing a 3 and the opposing team converts on a 3 after they got rebound on the Smart miss, that's a 6-point swing.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#227 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:51 pm

The Comedian wrote:Because those numbers mean nothing, and have nothing to do with this years team.

Celtics net rating is 19 points worse when Smart sits, than when he plays. Their offensive rating when he plays is 15 points better than when he sits. So he’s actually made the offense much better, so far.

You want to continue being willfully obtuse, go ahead. But it’s hard to take anything you say seriously, because you’re very clearly ignoring reality.


Reality is the Celts are not a very good team this season.

The wins and losses don't support the stats.

Smart is a starter.

When Smart sits most of the starters also sit.

So when Smart sits, it's the bench guys playing.

Stats will not tell you that.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#228 » by The Comedian » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:53 pm

Fierce1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:Smart takes 1.9 threes in the first quarter this year, not nearly enough to have as much off as impact as you say.


That's because your stats don't show what happens after Smart misses.

Yes, it's just 1.9 threes in the 1st qtr.

But if the opposing team is just ahead by 4 points and Smart ends up missing a 3 and the opposing team converts on a 3 after they got rebound on the Smart miss, that's a 6-point swing.


Yeah, no. That’s entirely covered in his on/off, where the team has been MUCH better with him on the court than off.

You just refuse to acknowledge reality with Smart, and come up with all this meaningless info and what if scenarios to try to support your opinion.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#229 » by The Comedian » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:56 pm

Fierce1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:Because those numbers mean nothing, and have nothing to do with this years team.

Celtics net rating is 19 points worse when Smart sits, than when he plays. Their offensive rating when he plays is 15 points better than when he sits. So he’s actually made the offense much better, so far.

You want to continue being willfully obtuse, go ahead. But it’s hard to take anything you say seriously, because you’re very clearly ignoring reality.


Reality is the Celts are not a very good team this season.

The wins and losses don't support the stats.

Smart is a starter.

When Smart sits most of the starters also sit.

So when Smart sits, it's the bench guys playing.

Stats will not tell you that.


Stats do tell you this, when Smart plays, we have a +6 net rating over the other team. That would be good for 4th best net rating in the league, when he plays.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#230 » by ballup » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:56 pm

Fierce1 wrote:
ballup wrote:Is Smart part of the problem? Yeah, but him moving to starting lineup isn't some kind of magic hindrance to 3pt shooting. Smart has always played starter minutes or close to it. The problem is the Celtics shooters being cold and having too many below average shooters on the floor at once. Tatum shooting at 33% is no good and neither is Al shooting 28%. The issue is compounded when guys like Schroeder and Richardson also get so much burn being at 33%. Changing whether Smart starts or comes off the bench isn't all of a sudden going to turn around the shootong.

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You know why it matters?

Because Celts are having slow starts when Smart keeps missing 3-pointers in the 1st qtr.

Numerous times Celts fall behind early, this season, because of poor shooting.
That is such a stretch of a theory. It's a much more complex issue than you're making it to be.

The Celtics are average in the number of open 3s and wide open 3s taken this year. They are top 10 in percentage on the former, but bottom 3 in the latter. They're missing good shots. Smart averages 3 more minutes than last season when the Celtics were in the top half in 3pt%.

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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#231 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:02 pm

ballup wrote:That is such a stretch of a theory. It's a much more complex issue than you're making it to be.

The Celtics are average in the number of open 3s and wide open 3s taken this year. They are top 10 in percentage on the former, but bottom 3 in the latter. They're missing good shots. Smart averages 3 more minutes than last season when the Celtics were in the top half in 3pt%.

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So let's simplify.

Is there a starting PG this season with shooting % similar to that of Marcus Smart?
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#232 » by Curmudgeon » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:03 pm

This is one of the least satisfying Celtics teams to watch over the last 50 years. They are selfish, which results on so many bad or difficult shots, not just from beyond the arc, but from everywhere. Selfish=predictable. Defenses know exactly what Celtics players will do, who will get the shots and who won't.
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"Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. Rebounding wins championships." Pat Summit
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#233 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:04 pm

The Comedian wrote:
Stats do tell you this, when Smart plays, we have a +6 net rating over the other team. That would be good for 4th best net rating in the league, when he plays.


Yeah, but the stats also didn't tell you that Smart is a starter and most of the time he plays with the starters, Tatum, Brown, Horford, and Rob.

When Smart sits, the starters also sit.

So it's not a surprise that when Smart sits the net rating goes down because it's the bench guys playing.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#234 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:14 pm

The Comedian wrote:
Yeah, no. That’s entirely covered in his on/off, where the team has been MUCH better with him on the court than off.

You just refuse to acknowledge reality with Smart, and come up with all this meaningless info and what if scenarios to try to support your opinion.


It's not meaningless.

There are numerous articles written by different writers saying that the Celts' shooting is a problem.

Celts are just 26th in 3pt % this season and Smart shooting 26% from 3pt land has nothing to do with that?

The reality is Smart is at his best when he's just a 6th man.

Multiple 50-win seasons in the past, when Smart was just a 6th man, is proof of that.

Marcus Smart was also 1st team All-NBA Defense in back to back seasons, in 2019 and 2020, when he was a 6th man.

When Smart became a starter last season, Smart didn't even make 2nd team All-NBA Defense.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#235 » by Larry_Russell » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:20 pm

My god. Still on with the Smart debate.

Can we change it to how Ime is still making Tatum playbout of position instead?

That is having far worse impact on the team.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#236 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:23 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:My god. Still on with the Smart debate.

Can we change it to how Ime is still making Tatum playbout of position instead?

That is having far worse impact on the team.


That's because from what we've learned the past 2 seasons, Jayson Tatum will eventually figure it out.

Right now Smart's impact on the game is bigger than Tatum.

Why?

Smart is the starting PG.
The ball is in his hands a lot!

We've already seen how Tatum scored over 30 points against Atlanta and Dallas and the Celts still lost.

So right now the least of the Celts' problems is Jayson Tatum.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#237 » by zoyathedestroya » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:24 pm

It's anti-Smart agenda because all you talk about is Smart and his mistakes (and none of the good he brings) for pages and pages. There are other players on the team too. Horford shooting well below his career average is hurting the team. Ime going with double bigs to start games, while good for our defense, hurts our offense. Tatum starting the season slow and turning into a pumpkin to close out some of the games has cost us wins. Schroder overdribbling hurts our ball movement. Nesmith and Pritchard forgetting how to shoot when it's the one thing they're known for is not helping the team. But yeah, let's talk about Smart's shooting for 10+ pages.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#238 » by Larry_Russell » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:26 pm

Fierce1 wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:My god. Still on with the Smart debate.

Can we change it to how Ime is still making Tatum playbout of position instead?

That is having far worse impact on the team.


That's because from what we've learned the past 2 seasons, Jayson Tatum will eventually figure it out.

Right now Smart's impact on the game is bigger than Tatum.

Why?

Smart is the starting PG.
The ball is in his hands a lot!

We've already seen how Tatum scored over 30 points against Atlanta and Dallas and the Celts still lost.

So right now the least of the Celts' problems is Jayson Tatum.



Smart has a usage of 15.2%
Tatum has a usage of 32.2%

So the ball in hands is part of your post is completely wrong

Jaysons shooting
Jaysons shooting choices
Jaysons defense
Jaysons hustle

All have taken a dive this season.

Jayson is more of a worry than Smart.

Just look at on off numbers.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#239 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:30 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:It's anti-Smart agenda because all you talk about is Smart and his mistakes (and none of the good he brings) for pages and pages. There are other players on the team too. Horford shooting well below his career average is hurting the team. Ime going with double bigs to start games, while good for our defense, hurts our offense. Tatum starting the season slow and turning into a pumpkin to close out some of the games has cost us wins. Schroder overdribbling hurts our ball movement. Nesmith and Pritchard forgetting how to shoot when it's the one thing they're known for is not helping the team. But yeah, let's talk about Smart's shooting for 10+ pages.


If you check the pages, I'm not the one who starts the conversation.

I'm just replying to posters who reply to my posts.

So all the writers writing about how bad Smart's shooting this season are also anti-Smart?
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#240 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:34 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:
Smart has a usage of 15.2%
Tatum has a usage of 32.2%

So the ball in hands is part of your post is completely wrong

Jaysons shooting
Jaysons shooting choices
Jaysons defense
Jaysons hustle

All have taken a dive this season.

Jayson is more of a worry than Smart.

Just look at on off numbers.


Usage?

Who gets the ball after the opposing team scores and the Celts inbound?

Even in today's basketball, the PG is still the one running the show, the floor general on the court.

Jayson Tatum is not playing Point Forward this season.

Gordon Hayward played Point Forward in 2019-20 and the Celts were on pace for 50 wins.

Let's not confuse usage with who's the floor general on the court.

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