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Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition

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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#241 » by zoyathedestroya » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:43 pm

Fierce1 wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:It's anti-Smart agenda because all you talk about is Smart and his mistakes (and none of the good he brings) for pages and pages. There are other players on the team too. Horford shooting well below his career average is hurting the team. Ime going with double bigs to start games, while good for our defense, hurts our offense. Tatum starting the season slow and turning into a pumpkin to close out some of the games has cost us wins. Schroder overdribbling hurts our ball movement. Nesmith and Pritchard forgetting how to shoot when it's the one thing they're known for is not helping the team. But yeah, let's talk about Smart's shooting for 10+ pages.


If you check the pages, I'm not the one who starts the conversation.

I'm just replying to posters who reply to my posts.

So all the writers writing about how bad Smart's shooting this season are also anti-Smart?

So why do you think the Cs are underperforming? Be honest.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#242 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:46 pm

According to the stats below, Smart is #48 out of 50 NBA PGs this season.
http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#243 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:48 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:So why do you think the Cs are underperforming? Be honest.


That's because the coach is starting and giving a lot of minutes to a very inefficient PG.

Make Schroder the starting PG and move Smart back to 6th man and the Celts will immediately improve.

Tatum, Brown, Horford, and Rob are all productive as starters.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#244 » by zoyathedestroya » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:00 pm

Fierce1 wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:So why do you think the Cs are underperforming? Be honest.


That's because the coach is starting and giving a lot of minutes to a very inefficient PG.

Make Schroder the starting PG and move Smart back to 6th man and the Celts will immediately improve.

Tatum, Brown, Horford, and Rob are all productive as starters.

That's it? So you don't think Horford shooting poorly from 3 is hurting our offense? Or Rob being unable to stay healthy? Or Jaylen missing almost half our games? Or Tatum's substandard 4th quarter play? Or the bench's inept offense? Or young guys not stepping up apart from Williams Bros?

Hey at least it was Ime that gets the blame for not figuring out the root of the team's problems.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#245 » by zoyathedestroya » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:08 pm

Just so we can talk about something else...

Tatum is shooting 33.3% FG% and 22.2% in the 4th Qs of team's losses. -3.4 per game which is worst among starters.

Last season, even in the team's losses, Tatum had 47/46/87 splits in the 4th Q. Barely negative in +/-.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#246 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:09 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:That's it? So you don't think Horford shooting poorly from 3 is hurting our offense? Or Rob being unable to stay healthy? Or Jaylen missing almost half our games? Or Tatum's substandard 4th quarter play? Or the bench's inept offense? Or young guys not stepping up apart from Williams Bros?

Hey at least it was Ime that gets the blame for not figuring out the root of the team's problems.


All you're saying is true.

But Smart has the biggest share of the pie, so to speak.

Think about it, out of 50 PGs in the NBA today Smart is just ranked #48 in Player Efficiency Rating.

That's very inefficient.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#247 » by Larry_Russell » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:15 pm

Fierce1 wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:
Smart has a usage of 15.2%
Tatum has a usage of 32.2%

So the ball in hands is part of your post is completely wrong

Jaysons shooting
Jaysons shooting choices
Jaysons defense
Jaysons hustle

All have taken a dive this season.

Jayson is more of a worry than Smart.

Just look at on off numbers.


Usage?

Who gets the ball after the opposing team scores and the Celts inbound?

Even in today's basketball, the PG is still the one running the show, the floor general on the court.

Jayson Tatum is not playing Point Forward this season.

Gordon Hayward played Point Forward in 2019-20 and the Celts were on pace for 50 wins.

Let's not confuse usage with who's the floor general on the court.



So By your own words. Pg runs the show and tatum is not a point forward

Smarts has a lower time per possession
Smart has a lower avg seconds per possession
Smart has a lower total touches
Smart has a lower front court touches

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738


This info is easy to find and completely contradicts your comments
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#248 » by ballup » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:17 pm

Fierce1 wrote:
ballup wrote:That is such a stretch of a theory. It's a much more complex issue than you're making it to be.

The Celtics are average in the number of open 3s and wide open 3s taken this year. They are top 10 in percentage on the former, but bottom 3 in the latter. They're missing good shots. Smart averages 3 more minutes than last season when the Celtics were in the top half in 3pt%.

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So let's simplify.

Is there a starting PG this season with shooting % similar to that of Marcus Smart?


Fierce1 wrote:
ballup wrote:That is such a stretch of a theory. It's a much more complex issue than you're making it to be.

The Celtics are average in the number of open 3s and wide open 3s taken this year. They are top 10 in percentage on the former, but bottom 3 in the latter. They're missing good shots. Smart averages 3 more minutes than last season when the Celtics were in the top half in 3pt%.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk


So let's simplify.

Is there a starting PG this season with shooting % similar to that of Marcus Smart?


Smart played in 4 out of the top 5 Celtics lineups for most years he has been in the league. You're oversimplifying one factor as the root of their total shooting woes. The idea that Smart starting single handlely tilts the entire team's shooting is absurd. If all our top 8 guys shot average on open 3s, keeping Smart's current numbers, the Celtics would be average on 3pt%.

Does Smart need to tune down his attempts and make more shots, no doubt. But this a team wide issue, not some gimmicky factor such as a player who has been playing starter minutes finally starting

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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#249 » by The Comedian » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:20 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:
Fierce1 wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:My god. Still on with the Smart debate.

Can we change it to how Ime is still making Tatum playbout of position instead?

That is having far worse impact on the team.


That's because from what we've learned the past 2 seasons, Jayson Tatum will eventually figure it out.

Right now Smart's impact on the game is bigger than Tatum.

Why?

Smart is the starting PG.
The ball is in his hands a lot!

We've already seen how Tatum scored over 30 points against Atlanta and Dallas and the Celts still lost.

So right now the least of the Celts' problems is Jayson Tatum.



Smart has a usage of 15.2%
Tatum has a usage of 32.2%

So the ball in hands is part of your post is completely wrong

Jaysons shooting
Jaysons shooting choices
Jaysons defense
Jaysons hustle

All have taken a dive this season.

Jayson is more of a worry than Smart.

Just look at on off numbers.


Tatum is actually third on the team in on/off, by a wide margin. His shooting profile is nearly identical to last season, and his defense has been better than last season, too early to look at any defensive advanced stats. His shooting has been abysmal, but he’s been fine elsewhere. Tatum has underperformed more than Smart so far, but he certainly isn’t the bigger worry.

Here is the net rating on/off by starter.

Smart +19.1
Rob +16.5
Tatum +15.8
Jaylen +12.5
Schroder +6.8
Al +1.2
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#250 » by Larry_Russell » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:50 pm

The Comedian wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:
Fierce1 wrote:
That's because from what we've learned the past 2 seasons, Jayson Tatum will eventually figure it out.

Right now Smart's impact on the game is bigger than Tatum.

Why?

Smart is the starting PG.
The ball is in his hands a lot!

We've already seen how Tatum scored over 30 points against Atlanta and Dallas and the Celts still lost.

So right now the least of the Celts' problems is Jayson Tatum.



Smart has a usage of 15.2%
Tatum has a usage of 32.2%

So the ball in hands is part of your post is completely wrong

Jaysons shooting
Jaysons shooting choices
Jaysons defense
Jaysons hustle

All have taken a dive this season.

Jayson is more of a worry than Smart.

Just look at on off numbers.


Tatum is actually third on the team in on/off, by a wide margin. His shooting profile is nearly identical to last season, and his defense has been better than last season, too early to look at any defensive advanced stats. His shooting has been abysmal, but he’s been fine elsewhere. Tatum has underperformed more than Smart so far, but he certainly isn’t the bigger worry.

Here is the net rating on/off by starter.

Smart +19.1
Rob +16.5
Tatum +15.8
Jaylen +12.5
Schroder +6.8
Al +1.2



You are correct.

Tat has been improving the last couple of games.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#251 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:56 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:
So By your own words. Pg runs the show and tatum is not a point forward

Smarts has a lower time per possession
Smart has a lower avg seconds per possession
Smart has a lower total touches
Smart has a lower front court touches

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738


This info is easy to find and completely contradicts your comments


It doesn't contradict my comments because Tatum is not playing Point Forward this season.

Of course Tatum gets the most touches, he's the team's #1 option.

Tatum is the recipient, not the one doing the facilitating.

Marcus Smart is still the one who brings up the ball and calls out the plays.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#252 » by Fierce1 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:00 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:
You are correct.

Tat has been improving the last couple of games.


That's what I mean when I say there's no need to discuss Jayson Tatum because he always improves as the season progresses.

He's been doing that for the last 2 seasons.

Marcus Smart on the other hand has gone from bad to worse.

Did you know that out of the 50 NBA PGs this season Smart is ranked #48?

We're not even talking about starters here.

#48 out of 50 in Player Efficiency Rating!

A very inefficient player and the coach makes him a starter.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#253 » by Hal14 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:41 pm

Fierce1 wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:
You are correct.

Tat has been improving the last couple of games.


That's what I mean when I say there's no need to discuss Jayson Tatum because he always improves as the season progresses.

He's been doing that for the last 2 seasons.

Marcus Smart on the other hand has gone from bad to worse.

Did you know that out of the 50 NBA PGs this season Smart is ranked #48?

We're not even talking about starters here.

#48 out of 50 in Player Efficiency Rating!

A very inefficient player and the coach makes him a starter.

1) Did you know that Smart is no. 1 on the Celtics so far this season in on/off rating?
2) PER is a decent stat to look at, but by no means is it the be all, end all for determining which player is better than which.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#254 » by zoyathedestroya » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:04 am

TIL, Celtics had a top 10 offense in 5 of Stevens' last 6 seasons. :o The only exception was when Kyrie plotted his exit even before trade deadline.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#255 » by Fencer reregistered » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:29 pm

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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#256 » by zoyathedestroya » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:21 pm

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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#257 » by The Comedian » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:30 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:
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He’s quietly shooting 68.4% within three feet, would be BY FAR the second best of his career. I think hitting more of these has given him confidence to drive more, which will (and has) really benefit the offense.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#258 » by Ben-N1ce » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:40 pm

Right now based on basic stats the Celtics need to hit more threes at a higher clip and turn it over less. Those are things that can certainly improve. Their shooting ceiling just doesn't appear to be great though. They will flat out win more games. Hard to rank in the 20's in those things and win consistently.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#259 » by zoyathedestroya » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:41 pm

The Comedian wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:
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He’s quietly shooting 68.4% within three feet, would be BY FAR the second best of his career. I think hitting more of these has given him confidence to drive more, which will (and has) really benefit the offense.

He's also back to blowing up opponents' plays. His instincts as a team defender/helper seem to be on another level (though admittedly a few times forgetting his own primary assignment, who backcuts or is left open for three). I think knowing he has Horford and/or Rob to cover for him has emboldened him to take more calculated risks on D (steal % would be a career high). It also helps that we have less possessions where a clear weak defensive link/liability is on the floor.

This Smart detractors whenever he misses an open three or commits a turnover.

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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#260 » by Fierce1 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:56 pm

Like I said, if Smart's play translates into wins, the detractors will have nothing to complain about.

What some of you guys are missing is if the stats don't result in wins then it's just empty stats.

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