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Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition

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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#261 » by Fierce1 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:01 pm

I also think calling out the detractors after a great win and Celtic fans are happy is unnecessary.

You really want to make this like blue vs. red?
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#262 » by The Comedian » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:13 pm

Fierce1 wrote:What some of you guys are missing is if the stats don't result in wins then it's just empty stats.


That’s just blatantly false, as usual. Context matters, and ignoring that is disingenuous. Tatum was struggling shooting, Jaylen has missed 9 of 16 games, Rob/Al/Richardson have all missed games. So the team significantly outplaying other teams when Smart is on the court is empty stats? Nah, it just shows they’d be even worse without Smart playing.

What you are missing is the understanding of how stats work.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#263 » by Fierce1 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:17 pm

The Comedian wrote:
Fierce1 wrote:What some of you guys are missing is if the stats don't result in wins then it's just empty stats.


That’s just blatantly false, as usual. Context matters, and ignoring that is disingenuous. Tatum was struggling shooting, Jaylen has missed 9 of 16 games, Rob/Al/Richardson have all missed games. I

What you are missing is the understanding of how stats work.


And you're turning a blind eye to the fact that Smart is one of the most inefficient players in the NBA this season.

Smart is only #48 out of 50 PGs when it comes to Player Efficiency Rating.

You keep telling me I'm wrong but when the stats don't translate into wins then what's the point of good stats when in the end the team is losing?

The forum was quiet until someone called out the detractors.

Like I said, it's a different story if the Celts are winning and some of us are still complaining about Marcus Smart.

Apparently someone wants to make this Marcus Smart issue like blue vs. red.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#264 » by The Comedian » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:25 pm

Fierce1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
Fierce1 wrote:What some of you guys are missing is if the stats don't result in wins then it's just empty stats.


That’s just blatantly false, as usual. Context matters, and ignoring that is disingenuous. Tatum was struggling shooting, Jaylen has missed 9 of 16 games, Rob/Al/Richardson have all missed games. I

What you are missing is the understanding of how stats work.


And you're turning a blind eye to the fact that Smart is one of the most inefficient players in the NBA this season.

Smart is only #48 out of 50 PGs when it comes to Player Efficiency Rating.

You keep telling me I'm wrong but when the stats don't translate into wins then what's the point of good stats when in the end the team is losing?

The forum was quiet until someone called out the detractors.

Like I said, it's a different story if the Celts are winning and some of us are still complaining about Marcus Smart.

Apparently someone wants to make this Marcus Smart issue like blue vs. red.


PER is a horrible gauge, it stopped being relevant 5+ years ago because people realized this. In fact a poll amongst NBA execs voted it the worst advanced stat there is. Using it for your argument just shows that you don’t really have a grasp on how stats work.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/

Yes Smart has been inefficient, yet they’ve significant outplayed other teams when he’s been on the court. It’s almost as if things like defense and passing matter a ton.

Stop with the red versus blue crap, that’s lame as hell. It’s debates about a basketball player, and you refusing to acknowledge the reality of them being much better than other teams when Smart has been on the court.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#265 » by Fierce1 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:29 pm

The Comedian wrote:PER is a horrible gauge, it stopped being relevant 5+ years ago because people realized this. In fact a poll amongst NBA execs voted it the worst advanced stat there is.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/

Yes Smart has been inefficient, yet they’ve significant outplayed other teams when he’s been on the court. It’s almost as if things like defense and passing matter a ton.

Stop with the red versus blue crap, that’s lame as hell. It’s debates about a basketball player, and you refusing to acknowledge reality.


Turn back to page 13 and look at who launched the first strike.

There was no debate today.

Then suddenly there was Leonardo looking for a fight.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#266 » by The Comedian » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:32 pm

Fierce1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:PER is a horrible gauge, it stopped being relevant 5+ years ago because people realized this. In fact a poll amongst NBA execs voted it the worst advanced stat there is.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/

Yes Smart has been inefficient, yet they’ve significant outplayed other teams when he’s been on the court. It’s almost as if things like defense and passing matter a ton.

Stop with the red versus blue crap, that’s lame as hell. It’s debates about a basketball player, and you refusing to acknowledge reality.


Turn back to page 13 and look at who launched the first strike.

There was no debate today.

Then suddenly there was Leonardo looking for a fight.


Nobody was looking for a fight, and there was no strike. zoya made a comment about smart having detractors, which is a fact…and you felt it was about you, so felt the need to respond.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#267 » by zoyathedestroya » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:13 pm

So when Cs lose, it's fine to pile on Smart and put most of the blame on him and when Cs win with Smart being the 2nd best player on the court, I can't celebrate my Smart appreciation and poke fun at his detractors? That's some BS right there.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#268 » by The Comedian » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:22 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:So when Cs lose, it's fine to pile on Smart and put most of the blame on him and when Cs win with Smart being the 2nd best player on the court, I can't celebrate my Smart appreciation and poke fun at his detractors? That's some BS right there.


Fire the mods.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#269 » by zoyathedestroya » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:26 pm

The Comedian wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:So when Cs lose, it's fine to pile on Smart and put most of the blame on him and when Cs win with Smart being the 2nd best player on the court, I can't celebrate my Smart appreciation and poke fun at his detractors? That's some BS right there.


Fire the mods.

Tbf, I'm totally being petty and immature. Didn't mean to cause any discord. People feel free to put me on ignore. Smart wins. Smart is a winner.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#270 » by The Comedian » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:42 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:So when Cs lose, it's fine to pile on Smart and put most of the blame on him and when Cs win with Smart being the 2nd best player on the court, I can't celebrate my Smart appreciation and poke fun at his detractors? That's some BS right there.


Fire the mods.

Tbf, I'm totally being petty and immature. Didn't mean to cause any discord. People feel free to put me on ignore. Smart wins. Smart is a winner.


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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#271 » by Fierce1 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:43 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:So when Cs lose, it's fine to pile on Smart and put most of the blame on him and when Cs win with Smart being the 2nd best player on the court, I can't celebrate my Smart appreciation and poke fun at his detractors? That's some BS right there.


Fire the mods.

Tbf, I'm totally being petty and immature. Didn't mean to cause any discord. People feel free to put me on ignore. Smart wins. Smart is a winner.


I think it's called "style bulok" in your country.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#272 » by bisme37 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:05 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#273 » by zoyathedestroya » Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:49 pm

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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#274 » by zoyathedestroya » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:15 am

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Source: cleaningtheglass.com

"Smart is just lucky to be playing alongside good players / starters all the time. That's why his oncourt net rating is positive."

Maybe they're lucky playing alongside Smart. ;)
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#275 » by zoyathedestroya » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:26 am

Ooh, btw, Celtics have gone 7-3 since Smart's public comments about Jays.
Read on Twitter


Did ball movement improve since then? I dunno, you tell me. :D
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#276 » by BK_2020 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:20 pm

Boston is 5-1 when Smart shoots 12 times or more in a game.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#277 » by GoGreen » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:51 pm

Happy to be watching quality ball finally.

More interested in what this team will look like when JB and Rob come back. I don't like Dennis on the bench to close the game. And how will JB adjust? Rob can't stretch the floor like Horf. Should he be benched to close? Some tough decisions.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#278 » by bisme37 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:33 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:Ooh, btw, Celtics have gone 7-3 since Smart's public comments about Jays.
Read on Twitter


Did ball movement improve since then? I dunno, you tell me. :D


Ball movement was awesome last night. But in the larger sense the answer to your question isn't entirely obvious to me. When Smarty said that the C's were already leading the league in creating the most "wide open" shots. But they were near the bottom of the league in actually making those shots. So it was more of a shot making problem than a passing problem. And Tatum had 8 assists in a game right before Smart called him out, so in his (JT's) case I kinda feel like the whole thing only got him in his head and had him second guessing himself until recently, resulting in the slump we saw.

But the defense has certainly improved since the comments. I imagine when the team got together to talk about Smart's comments they ended up deciding the biggest issue was really on defense. And they've really dug in and flipped the script on that end. So his comments ended up resulting in a good change, but it happened in a round-about way. imo.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#279 » by zoyathedestroya » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:43 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:Image
Source: cleaningtheglass.com

"Smart is just lucky to be playing alongside good players / starters all the time. That's why his oncourt net rating is positive."

Maybe they're lucky playing alongside Smart. ;)

I'm just gonna call this the Lowry Effect. Kyle has a very similar chart for 2018-19 but Smart's impact right now is more pronounced (could very well be due to smaller sample). Whether or not Lowry himself shot well during games back then, you want him on the court. I think that was the year when bench units led by him consistently destroyed opposing benches. Don't misconstrue this as me saying Smart is an all-star, but he's killing it right now as a high-level role player that just makes the team better overall.
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Re: Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread, 2nd Edition 

Post#280 » by zoyathedestroya » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:13 pm

bisme37 wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:Ooh, btw, Celtics have gone 7-3 since Smart's public comments about Jays.
Read on Twitter


Did ball movement improve since then? I dunno, you tell me. :D


Ball movement was awesome last night. But in the larger sense the answer to your question isn't entirely obvious to me. When Smarty said that the C's were already leading the league in creating the most "wide open" shots. But they were near the bottom of the league in actually making those shots. So it was more of a shot making problem than a passing problem. And Tatum had 8 assists in a game right before Smart called him out, so in his (JT's) case I kinda feel like the whole thing only got him in his head and had him second guessing himself until recently, resulting in the slump we saw.

But the defense has certainly improved since the comments. I imagine when the team got together to talk about Smart's comments they ended up deciding the biggest issue was really on defense. And they've really dug in and flipped the script on that end. So his comments ended up resulting in a good change, but it happened in a round-about way. imo.

This is one man's opinion and interpretation of stats (article released prior to last two games) -- Cs ball movement has been poor this season (the last two games being obvious exceptions).

https://fansided.com/2021/11/18/celtics-offense-broken/

Earlier this month, Marcus Smart called out Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown in frustrated post-game comments, saying, “I think everybody’s scouting report is to make those guys try and pass the ball. They don’t want to pass the ball and that’s something that they’re going to learn.”

The specifics of his comments can be debated, but the context is rock solid. So far this season, the Celtics have been averaging 12.3 isolation possessions per game, 10.8 percent of their total offensive possessions. And that number may even be a little low because it only includes possessions that were finished (with a shot, turnover or shooting) with isolation — there are certainly some additional possessions where isolation was the dominant action but the play ended in a kick-out or pass to another shooter. For reference, 12.3 isolations per game would be the sixth-highest team mark for the seven seasons for which NBA play type data is available and the highest mark for any non-James Harden or LeBron James team.


Spoiler:
Image
Image


In Tatum's case, it's more his penchant for holding the ball too long rather than the refusal to pass, which Ime pointed out in one of his interviews. Quicker decisions/reads from JT have made him more dangerous and our team offense more potent.

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