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Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion

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Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#1 » by Larry_Russell » Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:24 pm

Didnt see anything newer than 2019 for a catch all Jaylen thread.


Brown, since returning from his second Hamstring outage.

13 games
36 minutes

27ppg (5th)
7.5rpg (9th)
3.5 apg
1.5spg
.5bpg

46%
36%
78%

4.0 turnovers

Only knock against him is the turnovers and the free throw shooting.
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#2 » by cl2117 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:54 pm

The turnovers and lack of assists are linked. He dribbles his way into trouble/turnovers and looks to pass only as a last resort. He's made better reads of late, but in general he's still a head down me-first scorer.

The thing about Jaylen is that he's improved every single year he's been in the league. It's hard not to be tough on him because of it. I still think he can continue to develop and having better court vision is the next step for him.

There's very few players I'd trade him for and none of them would even be available anyway.
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#3 » by Larry_Russell » Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:19 pm

cl2117 wrote:The turnovers and lack of assists are linked. He dribbles his way into trouble/turnovers and looks to pass only as a last resort. He's made better reads of late, but in general he's still a head down me-first scorer.

The thing about Jaylen is that he's improved every single year he's been in the league. It's hard not to be tough on him because of it. I still think he can continue to develop and having better court vision is the next step for him.

There's very few players I'd trade him for and none of them would even be available anyway.



I am in the same boat as you.

I do think that he improving in his ability to read the defense and get a good, simple crisp pass to an open teammate and excited to see him attempting to do so and work on it.

He can score all three levels
He can rebound well above average for his position
he can defend above average to great

His assist% took a big jump last year and has kind of teetered this season (partly due to the roster being terrible at making a shot)

Just need him to get the passing to improve a bit (which has been happening this year) and tighten the screws a bit on his turnovers.
Tatum is a PF Horford is a C
Young guys Need time
Smart and Schroder= dumb
Isolation plays are NOT A VIABLE OFFENSE
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#4 » by The Comedian » Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:43 pm

He’s a very good player, top 25-30. I personally don’t think he will get much higher than that, but hopefully I’m wrong there.
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#5 » by Ben-N1ce » Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:02 pm

Neg turnover ratio. Meh. My issue with him and Tatum is they don't Move off ball to get easier shots and to get down hill. Once they get the ball they are always dribbling around. If you look at the Celtics offense its very rarely multiple passes if Tatum and Jaylen touch the ball. Only time the ball always moves is if Timelord and Al play as satellite passers because they aren't going to just look for shots.
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#6 » by Larry_Russell » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:05 pm

Ben-N1ce wrote:Neg turnover ratio. Meh. My issue with him and Tatum is they don't Move off ball to get easier shots and to get down hill. Once they get the ball they are always dribbling around. If you look at the Celtics offense its very rarely multiple passes if Tatum and Jaylen touch the ball. Only time the ball always moves is if Timelord and Al play as satellite passers because they aren't going to just look for shots.


I dont like that either,

But I have to admit, last night seeing them for the first time in forever run pick and roll plays with each other. And I really like it. then having guys like Richardson moving off the ball gets the defense moving.
Tatum is a PF Horford is a C
Young guys Need time
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Isolation plays are NOT A VIABLE OFFENSE
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#7 » by Larry_Russell » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:08 pm

. duplicatre post
Tatum is a PF Horford is a C
Young guys Need time
Smart and Schroder= dumb
Isolation plays are NOT A VIABLE OFFENSE
Stop running your stars into the ground.
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#8 » by LuckyLeprechaun » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:53 pm

The Comedian wrote:He’s a very good player, top 25-30. I personally don’t think he will get much higher than that, but hopefully I’m wrong there.


I think he's the type of player that in a system that's designed to maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses, he can come across as a 15-20ish player. If he was rarely ever asked to or allowed to iso and ball handle and there was a heavier emphasis on individual defense, most of the complaints people have about him would go away. In our system, yeah he probably can't get much higher than 25ish.
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#9 » by BK_2020 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:25 pm

It's a waste of time to look at a 13 game sample that happened against COVID depleted rosters.
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#10 » by keevsnick1 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:47 pm

I'm sure this will be a thoughtful, reasonable discussion with no hyperbole or over the top declarations about a 25 year old who has improved consistently since he entered the league.
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#11 » by keevsnick1 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:56 pm

The Comedian wrote:He’s a very good player, top 25-30. I personally don’t think he will get much higher than that, but hopefully I’m wrong there.


Can I ask why?

I think I'd have him at a similar level as you right now, 25-30. But I think he's also made pretty consistent improvement almost every year. Spot up shooting, dribbling, inside finishing, FT shooting, rebounding, post defense, limiting defensive mistakes, off the dribble shooting, ect. The last really below average skill he has is his passing, but below average skills are in some ways low hanging fruit. Because going from below average to average or above average is a lot easier than going from average to very good. So i don't know, I'm fairly confident he'll get better in that area. How much better, I don't know, but a little improvement in that area I think will really scale up his game and given that he's gotten better at almost everything else I think its a fair bet. Passing is the last thing wings develop, especially wings that have never been asked to be lead playmakers before.

Not saying he'll ever be like an MVP candidate, but he could get on some all-nba teams at his peak.
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#12 » by Larry_Russell » Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:20 pm

keevsnick1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:He’s a very good player, top 25-30. I personally don’t think he will get much higher than that, but hopefully I’m wrong there.


Can I ask why?

I think I'd have him at a similar level as you right now, 25-30. But I think he's also made pretty consistent improvement almost every year. Spot up shooting, dribbling, inside finishing, FT shooting, rebounding, post defense, limiting defensive mistakes, off the dribble shooting, ect. The last really below average skill he has is his passing, but below average skills are in some ways low hanging fruit. Because going from below average to average or above average is a lot easier than going from average to very good. So i don't know, I'm fairly confident he'll get better in that area. How much better, I don't know, but a little improvement in that area I think will really scale up his game and given that he's gotten better at almost everything else I think its a fair bet. Passing is the last thing wings develop, especially wings that have never been asked to be lead playmakers before.

Not saying he'll ever be like an MVP candidate, but he could get on some all-nba teams at his peak.



If he cuts his turnovers down by 2 and increases his assists by 1 above what he has averaged the past month he is all nba.
Tatum is a PF Horford is a C
Young guys Need time
Smart and Schroder= dumb
Isolation plays are NOT A VIABLE OFFENSE
Stop running your stars into the ground.
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#13 » by The Comedian » Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:50 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:
keevsnick1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:He’s a very good player, top 25-30. I personally don’t think he will get much higher than that, but hopefully I’m wrong there.


Can I ask why?

I think I'd have him at a similar level as you right now, 25-30. But I think he's also made pretty consistent improvement almost every year. Spot up shooting, dribbling, inside finishing, FT shooting, rebounding, post defense, limiting defensive mistakes, off the dribble shooting, ect. The last really below average skill he has is his passing, but below average skills are in some ways low hanging fruit. Because going from below average to average or above average is a lot easier than going from average to very good. So i don't know, I'm fairly confident he'll get better in that area. How much better, I don't know, but a little improvement in that area I think will really scale up his game and given that he's gotten better at almost everything else I think its a fair bet. Passing is the last thing wings develop, especially wings that have never been asked to be lead playmakers before.

Not saying he'll ever be like an MVP candidate, but he could get on some all-nba teams at his peak.



If he cuts his turnovers down by 2 and increases his assists by 1 above what he has averaged the past month he is all nba.


It’s really not that simple, he still needs to consistently play at an elite level. On the season so far, he’s basically the same player as last year, with worse shooting and worse assist to turnover ratio. Eventually those huge improvements stop, and a player is mostly what he is, outside of fringe improvements. Advanced stats still paint him as more good than anything else, raw stats say the same. The two hardest leaps in the league are from very good to elite, and from elite to franchise altering. Most players stall at very good, it’s why all nba guys are so rare.

Just like I think Tatum settles in that top 5-10 range at his best (as opposed to a consistent top MVP candidate that some believe), I think Jaylen probably settles into that top 20-25 range at his peak. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but there’s a ton of talent in the league.

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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#14 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:04 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:
keevsnick1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:He’s a very good player, top 25-30. I personally don’t think he will get much higher than that, but hopefully I’m wrong there.


Can I ask why?

I think I'd have him at a similar level as you right now, 25-30. But I think he's also made pretty consistent improvement almost every year. Spot up shooting, dribbling, inside finishing, FT shooting, rebounding, post defense, limiting defensive mistakes, off the dribble shooting, ect. The last really below average skill he has is his passing, but below average skills are in some ways low hanging fruit. Because going from below average to average or above average is a lot easier than going from average to very good. So i don't know, I'm fairly confident he'll get better in that area. How much better, I don't know, but a little improvement in that area I think will really scale up his game and given that he's gotten better at almost everything else I think its a fair bet. Passing is the last thing wings develop, especially wings that have never been asked to be lead playmakers before.

Not saying he'll ever be like an MVP candidate, but he could get on some all-nba teams at his peak.



If he cuts his turnovers down by 2 and increases his assists by 1 above what he has averaged the past month he is all nba.


That is a drastic change though. How many other guys this late in their careers who have essentially been a 1:1 assist to turnover guy make that big of a change? I mean he's in his 6th season right now and on the year he has more turnovers than assists. If he were to cut down his turnovers by 2 and increase his assist by 1, he would be going from a 1:1 assist to turnover ration (considered really bad), to a 4:1 assist to turnover ratio (considered elite). I cant think of anyone else who went from a bad facilitator to an elite one, 6-7 years into their career. He has just shown zero potential really with his facilitating ability to think any kind of massive jump like this is somewhat plausible.

I agree with The Comedian on this, I think Brown is pretty close to being what he is. A really good player but not quite an elite one.
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#15 » by Larry_Russell » Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:50 pm

The Comedian wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:
keevsnick1 wrote:
Can I ask why?

I think I'd have him at a similar level as you right now, 25-30. But I think he's also made pretty consistent improvement almost every year. Spot up shooting, dribbling, inside finishing, FT shooting, rebounding, post defense, limiting defensive mistakes, off the dribble shooting, ect. The last really below average skill he has is his passing, but below average skills are in some ways low hanging fruit. Because going from below average to average or above average is a lot easier than going from average to very good. So i don't know, I'm fairly confident he'll get better in that area. How much better, I don't know, but a little improvement in that area I think will really scale up his game and given that he's gotten better at almost everything else I think its a fair bet. Passing is the last thing wings develop, especially wings that have never been asked to be lead playmakers before.

Not saying he'll ever be like an MVP candidate, but he could get on some all-nba teams at his peak.



If he cuts his turnovers down by 2 and increases his assists by 1 above what he has averaged the past month he is all nba.


It’s really not that simple, he still needs to consistently play at an elite level. On the season so far, he’s basically the same player as last year, with worse shooting and worse assist to turnover ratio. Eventually those huge improvements stop, and a player is mostly what he is, outside of fringe improvements. Advanced stats still paint him as more good than anything else, raw stats say the same. The two hardest leaps in the league are from very good to elite, and from elite to franchise altering. Most players stall at very good, it’s why all nba guys are so rare.

Just like I think Tatum settles in that top 5-10 range at his best (as opposed to a consistent top MVP candidate that some believe), I think Jaylen probably settles into that top 20-25 range at his peak. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but there’s a ton of talent in the league.


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IMO, Top 20-25 in the NBA puts him in the All NBA conversation,.

If he gets in the ALl NBA conversation and Tatum is All NBA then team is looking super bright.
Tatum is a PF Horford is a C
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#16 » by Larry_Russell » Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:53 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:
keevsnick1 wrote:
Can I ask why?

I think I'd have him at a similar level as you right now, 25-30. But I think he's also made pretty consistent improvement almost every year. Spot up shooting, dribbling, inside finishing, FT shooting, rebounding, post defense, limiting defensive mistakes, off the dribble shooting, ect. The last really below average skill he has is his passing, but below average skills are in some ways low hanging fruit. Because going from below average to average or above average is a lot easier than going from average to very good. So i don't know, I'm fairly confident he'll get better in that area. How much better, I don't know, but a little improvement in that area I think will really scale up his game and given that he's gotten better at almost everything else I think its a fair bet. Passing is the last thing wings develop, especially wings that have never been asked to be lead playmakers before.

Not saying he'll ever be like an MVP candidate, but he could get on some all-nba teams at his peak.



If he cuts his turnovers down by 2 and increases his assists by 1 above what he has averaged the past month he is all nba.


That is a drastic change though. How many other guys this late in their careers who have essentially been a 1:1 assist to turnover guy make that big of a change? I mean he's in his 6th season right now and on the year he has more turnovers than assists. If he were to cut down his turnovers by 2 and increase his assist by 1, he would be going from a 1:1 assist to turnover ration (considered really bad), to a 4:1 assist to turnover ratio (considered elite). I cant think of anyone else who went from a bad facilitator to an elite one, 6-7 years into their career. He has just shown zero potential really with his facilitating ability to think any kind of massive jump like this is somewhat plausible.

I agree with The Comedian on this, I think Brown is pretty close to being what he is. A really good player but not quite an elite one.



I do not disagree, was just stating that if he could, he would be All NBA.

I will be happy if he just improves on his turnovers. Which I am confident he can do.

I dont think its unreasonable to see him add 1 assist per game and limit 1 turnover.
Tatum is a PF Horford is a C
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#17 » by The Comedian » Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:55 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:If he gets in the ALl NBA conversation and Tatum is All NBA then team is looking super bright.


With the exception of a select stubborn few, I think most would agree with this. I just think he stays as more in the conversation for all star, than all nba.

Either way, we need Tatum to start shooting like his career numbers, and more talent down the rest of the roster.
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#18 » by GoGreen » Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:59 pm

Jaylen has busted his a** from a kid who was booed draft night to an all star. Kid has improved every year and don't see any reason we he'll stop improving.
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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#19 » by Stan34 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:20 pm

keevsnick1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:He’s a very good player, top 25-30. I personally don’t think he will get much higher than that, but hopefully I’m wrong there.


Can I ask why?

I think I'd have him at a similar level as you right now, 25-30. But I think he's also made pretty consistent improvement almost every year. Spot up shooting, dribbling, inside finishing, FT shooting, rebounding, post defense, limiting defensive mistakes, off the dribble shooting, ect. The last really below average skill he has is his passing, but below average skills are in some ways low hanging fruit. Because going from below average to average or above average is a lot easier than going from average to very good. So i don't know, I'm fairly confident he'll get better in that area. How much better, I don't know, but a little improvement in that area I think will really scale up his game and given that he's gotten better at almost everything else I think its a fair bet. Passing is the last thing wings develop, especially wings that have never been asked to be lead playmakers before.

Not saying he'll ever be like an MVP candidate, but he could get on some all-nba teams at his peak.
You loose time talking to some people. If Jaylen becomes a better player than Tatum is a tragedy for someone here.
There is no logic, just sentiment. And right now they are talking about advanced stats, but only stats they want to talk about.
Same old narrative about jaylen being a catch and shoot player, occasionally can attack close out and stop.
Every year they put on him a different ceiling, two years ago same people told us that he was a rich Avery Bradley at best.
If Jaylen scores 30 is because three people guarding Tatum and he is free. Imagine Brown playing with KD or Lebron or Curry, probably would score 35 a game.
They continue the narrative about jaylen being a bad defender and this year every **** stats, advanced or not say the opposite.
Reality is some people are right on point about JB, some people are just haters.
Those people tell us that Simmons is a better player and it's ridicoulus instead. A player that don't shoot, afraid to shoot FT, that take massive step back in post season.
Putting a ceiling to a 25 old years player is a shame. They don't root for the Celtics, they root for JT. Illogical because if Jaylen plays great is better for Tatum too.
Anyway JT told the world yesterday after the game: there are no alot of players like jaylen in the NBA.

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Re: Jaylen Brown improvements and discussion 

Post#20 » by The Comedian » Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:41 pm

Stan34 wrote:
keevsnick1 wrote:
The Comedian wrote:He’s a very good player, top 25-30. I personally don’t think he will get much higher than that, but hopefully I’m wrong there.


Can I ask why?

I think I'd have him at a similar level as you right now, 25-30. But I think he's also made pretty consistent improvement almost every year. Spot up shooting, dribbling, inside finishing, FT shooting, rebounding, post defense, limiting defensive mistakes, off the dribble shooting, ect. The last really below average skill he has is his passing, but below average skills are in some ways low hanging fruit. Because going from below average to average or above average is a lot easier than going from average to very good. So i don't know, I'm fairly confident he'll get better in that area. How much better, I don't know, but a little improvement in that area I think will really scale up his game and given that he's gotten better at almost everything else I think its a fair bet. Passing is the last thing wings develop, especially wings that have never been asked to be lead playmakers before.

Not saying he'll ever be like an MVP candidate, but he could get on some all-nba teams at his peak.
You loose time talking to some people. If Jaylen becomes a better player than Tatum is a tragedy for someone here.
There is no logic, just sentiment. And right now they are talking about advanced stats, but only stats they want to talk about.
Same old narrative about jaylen being a catch and shoot player, occasionally can attack close out and stop.
Every year they put on him a different ceiling, two years ago same people told us that he was a rich Avery Bradley at best.
If Jaylen scores 30 is because three people guarding Tatum and he is free. Imagine Brown playing with KD or Lebron or Curry, probably would score 35 a game.
They continue the narrative about jaylen being a bad defender and this year every **** stats, advanced or not say the opposite.
Reality is some people are right on point about JB, some people are just haters.
Those people tell us that Simmons is a better player and it's ridicoulus instead. A player that don't shoot, afraid to shoot FT, that take massive step back in post season.
Putting a ceiling to a 25 old years player is a shame. They don't root for the Celtics, they root for JT. Illogical because if Jaylen plays great is better for Tatum too.
Anyway JT told the world yesterday after the game: there are no alot of players like jaylen in the NBA.

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You say there’s no logic, just sentiment, but that’s exactly what you’re guilty of. Both advanced stats and raw stats show Jaylen as a very good but not great player, every nba ranking system had him 25 or later. He was one of the last guys voted into the all star game last season, he’s likely not making the all star game this year, and yeah, he doesn’t get nearly the defensive attention that Tatum gets. You ignore the stats, you ignore that he’s not the focal point of defenses, because you’re such a big fan.

What exactly isn’t true, or is just hating? Because some people think he won’t be all nba? Guess what? Most people don’t think he will be all nba. It’s not hating, it’s pretty much the consensus opinion. I don’t see you fighting anyone when people put a ceiling on Tatum, yet you say others are Tatum fans and not Celtics fans. A bit hypocritical, if you ask me.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with people thinking he has a ceiling of top 20-25. That’s a VERY good player, and better than a majority of the league.

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