Jaylen Brown Thread – Improvements and Discussion

Larry_Russell · Post #61 » by **Larry_Russell** » Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:00 pm

Last night was a beautiful game again from Brown

Attacking early, bombing shots, driving the ball. Just imposing his will. And I find that if one of the Jays starts like that the other one follows. And it is winning basketball.

Since January

29.7ppg
9.2rpg
4.3apg (3.2tov)
53% from floor
49%!! from 3

Unsustainable, yes, but enjoy it while it lasts.

Only Lebron, Embiid and Giannis has scored more in this time

And incredible stretch of games.

sam_I_am · Post #62 » by **sam_I_am** » Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:12 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:Last night was a beautiful game again from Brown

Attacking early, bombing shots, driving the ball. Just imposing his will. And I find that if one of the Jays starts like that the other one follows. And it is winning basketball.

Since January

29.7ppg
9.2rpg
4.3apg (3.2tov)
53% from floor
49%!! from 3

Unsustainable, yes, but enjoy it while it lasts.

Only Lebron, Embiid and Giannis has scored more in this time

And incredible stretch of games.

Jaylen’s season has been disrupted. Coming back from major surgery he gets Covid and misses start of season. He then suffers hamstring injury which he quickly reinsures. Many were quick to give up on him which is shocking really when you consider his talent, his youth and his impeccable playoff pedigree for such a young player.

I am not suggesting he is a championship franchise player….but like Paul Pierce he is not a guy you give up on. The guy is really good.

24istheLAW · Post #63 » by **24istheLAW** » Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:58 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:Last night was a beautiful game again from Brown

Attacking early, bombing shots, driving the ball. Just imposing his will. And I find that if one of the Jays starts like that the other one follows. And it is winning basketball.

Since January

29.7ppg
9.2rpg
4.3apg (3.2tov)
53% from floor
49%!! from 3

Unsustainable, yes, but enjoy it while it lasts.

Only Lebron, Embiid and Giannis has scored more in this time

And incredible stretch of games.

What impressed me the most was the depth of the 3s he hit last night. No corner 3s in there. He was 3 feet above the break. That's space-creating three point range.

ryan in Maine · Post #64 » by **ryan in Maine** » Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:14 pm

BostonCouchGM wrote:whenever people praise Jaylen and claim he's a top 25-30 player I look at our record and wonder how we suck despite supposedly having a top 10-15 player in Tatum and top 25-30 in Jaylen. Something is off. In today's NBA, high usage chuckers are going to put up numbers. Someone has to.

At the end of the day this team goes as far as Tatum takes us right? Once Tatum and Brown improve their overall feel for the game to the point where they're consistently making the right play, we'll look better. They're still figuring their overall games out. They're still finding their rhythm too.

Jaylen's shooting is down from the past couple of seasons but he's not a chucker. I'm not saying he never does because I've seen it with my own eyes lol but not so much as to earn him the label going forward.

Spoiler:

No way does an All Star player voted in by the teams themselves in 2021 belong in that 2nd tier. There's a grip of guys in your 1st tier who make for interesting discussion and we could have fun with that. These lists are subjective of course and there's more competition from a few players making a babe for themselves this season but that's a blatant agenda post. Preemptive accusations of emotional outbursts? C'mon, man. Nobody here is afraid of a friendly debate.

Jaylen's stats are going to look better when the season ends imo. Right now it's fits and starts but his season hasn't gone very smoothly so far. He's quite a few minutes behind most of the players you're bringing up. We'll all be keeping an eye on his ast:to ratio but he's getting better overall every year (stay tuned).

Putting him in your 2nd tier is hate going out of its way. It's like driving by pedestrians the day after a rain and swerving to hit a puddle to drench them with street water. You're swerving on JB lol.

Spoiler:

I have him ranked above all those players outside of LaVine. You could make a case for DeRozan, Bam, and Jamal but I wouldn't call it clear-cut. Maybe LaMelo but I think that's more of a projection atm. He's not currently better than Jaylen. I'd strongly consider making that trade though lol. Fred is an interesting player right now. He's shooting well from the lines but he's got like 350 more minutes over Jaylen this season. Fred's a better shooter in general even if Jaylen brings his 3p% and ft% back up. Jamal is another interesting name. Get well soon, Jamal. I don't think that's a homer take limited to Celtics fans, "100% objectively" lol.

I think Bam and Jonas are better centers than Jaylen but not quite better players. I think LaMelo, Garland and D Murray are better point guards than Jaylen but not currently better players.

Why would you rank DeRozan, Bam and Jamal over JB? Why would you rank Ingram, Middleton, Garland, Jonas, or D Murray over him? You've glossed over pretty much all context so I'm not sure what your opinion actually comes down to on these head to head comparisons. Are these guys you'd trade him for? I'm more interested in your reasoning than your list.

2021 All Star team

Spoiler:

LeBron picked Jaylen at 17 over Randle, Nikola V, Sabonis, and George, Donovan, Rudy.

Looking at those rosters we can probably remove 4 or 5 players from each the East and West this season. Who do we replace them with? Who does Jaylen get bumped for? Not so much interested in the fan vote but I guess it's relevant.

* I used https://www.basketball-reference.com for quick comparisons but I'm in my phone so I might've overlooked some things even I was responding to your second list.

Saint Lazarus · Post #65 » by **Saint Lazarus** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:57 am

The Comedian wrote:
Saint Lazarus wrote:This forum is ass

Haters and fanboys is like gasoline and a match.

If I'm being 100% serious for a second (which I rarely am when discussing hoops), I'm tired of this board constantly **** on Brown, Tatum, and saying they need to be broken up.

And it's not even like intelligent (and constructive) criticism. It's just "yeah here's 50 players that are OBJECTIVELY BETTER than Brown" **** posts.

I want to read someone analyze how Tatum and Brown can get better. What kind of plays can they run together to maximize their efficiency? Do we have any comps of dynamic duos in the past or present that they can emulate?

Nope. It's just point out his 1:1 AST-TO ratio and conjure up some trade proposal for Sabonis.

Post #66 » by **Feed Your Head** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:23 am

Saint Lazarus wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
Saint Lazarus wrote:This forum is ass

Haters and fanboys is like gasoline and a match.

If I'm being 100% serious for a second (which I rarely am when discussing hoops), I'm tired of this board constantly **** on Brown, Tatum, and saying they need to be broken up.

And it's not even like intelligent (and constructive) criticism. It's just "yeah here's 50 players that are OBJECTIVELY BETTER than Brown" **** posts.

I want to read someone analyze how Tatum and Brown can get better. What kind of plays can they run together to maximize their efficiency? Do we have any comps of dynamic duos in the past or present that they can emulate?

Nope. It's just point out his 1:1 AST-TO ratio and conjure up some trade proposal for Sabonis.

My son, I am so proud. Welcome to the nerd club.

Seriously though, use Jaylen off ball more, and I think it can work. It’s really hard to have two 30%+ usage guys who aren’t natural facilitators.

MagicBagley18 · Post #67 » by **MagicBagley18** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:46 am

I think I just read a pro Jaylen point that was based upon lebron picking him over all stars on tnt- I’ve seen it all. Nicely done.

BostonCouchGM · Post #68 » by **BostonCouchGM** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:41 am

Saint Lazarus wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
Saint Lazarus wrote:This forum is ass

Haters and fanboys is like gasoline and a match.

If I'm being 100% serious for a second (which I rarely am when discussing hoops), I'm tired of this board constantly **** on Brown, Tatum, and saying they need to be broken up.

And it's not even like intelligent (and constructive) criticism. It's just "yeah here's 50 players that are OBJECTIVELY BETTER than Brown" **** posts.

I want to read someone analyze how Tatum and Brown can get better. What kind of plays can they run together to maximize their efficiency? Do we have any comps of dynamic duos in the past or present that they can emulate?

Nope. It's just point out his 1:1 AST-TO ratio and conjure up some trade proposal for Sabonis.

nice fake outrage. I've posted many many times how Brown could improve and be utilized better. You and your ilk just either ignore it or mock it because you're triggered by anything that doesn't praise them endlessly or claim "tRoLlInG" or "hAtEr". It's weak. And it's 30, not 50, objectively better.

Marvel · Post #69 » by **Marvel** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:46 am

Well this thread just got interesting

TommyPointGawd · Post #70 » by **TommyPointGawd** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:04 am

MagicBagley18 wrote:I think I just read a pro Jaylen point that was based upon lebron picking him over all stars on tnt- I’ve seen it all. Nicely done.

Are you not hip to Lebron Impact Metrics?

ryan in Maine · Post #71 » by **ryan in Maine** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:05 am

MagicBagley18 wrote:I think I just read a pro Jaylen point that was based upon lebron picking him over all stars on tnt- I’ve seen it all. Nicely done.

I take them where I can get them.

MagicBagley18 · Post #72 » by **MagicBagley18** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:07 am

[instagram][/instagram]

ryan in Maine wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:I think I just read a pro Jaylen point that was based upon lebron picking him over all stars on tnt- I’ve seen it all. Nicely done.

I take them where I can get them.

Sounds like my motto back in the day when I was single on the bar scene....respect

BostonCouchGM · Post #73 » by **BostonCouchGM** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:33 am

ryan in Maine wrote:
BostonCouchGM wrote:whenever people praise Jaylen and claim he's a top 25-30 player I look at our record and wonder how we suck despite supposedly having a top 10-15 player in Tatum and top 25-30 in Jaylen. Something is off. In today's NBA, high usage chuckers are going to put up numbers. Someone has to.

At the end of the day this team goes as far as Tatum takes us right? Once Tatum and Brown improve their overall feel for the game to the point where they're consistently making the right play, we'll look better. They're still figuring their overall games out. They're still finding their rhythm too.

Jaylen's shooting is down from the past couple of seasons but he's not a chucker. I'm not saying he never does because I've seen it with my own eyes lol but not so much as to earn him the label going forward.

Spoiler:
BostonCouchGM wrote:How about we do an updated top 40 (and beyond)? This always bring out the well thought-out responses devoid of emotional outbursts?! In a very loose order:

Giannis
KD
Steph
Lebron
Embiid
Jokic
Trae
Mitchell
Tatum
George
Kawhi
Kyrie
Harden
Butler
LaMelo
Zion
Gobert
Luka
DeRozan
LaVine
Tatum
Beal
KAT
AD
Lillard
Booker
Bam
Ingram
VanVleet
SGA
Middleton
Garland
Sabonis
Jrue
Murray, D
CP3
McCollum
Morant
Murray, J
Valanciunas

Then you have the next group of guys where Jaylen belongs.

MPJ
Siakam
Anunoby
Murray
Porzingis
Jaylen
Wiggins
Grant
Lonzo
Klay
Miles Bridges
Randle
Draymond
Edwards
Hayward
Barnes
Mobley
Cunnhingham
Westbrook
Fox
Allen
DeAngelo

No way does an All Star player voted in by the teams themselves in 2021 belong in that 2nd tier. There's a grip of guys in your 1st tier who make for interesting discussion and we could have fun with that. These lists are subjective of course and there's more competition from a few players making a babe for themselves this season but that's a blatant agenda post. Preemptive accusations of emotional outbursts? C'mon, man. Nobody here is afraid of a friendly debate.

Jaylen's stats are going to look better when the season ends imo. Right now it's fits and starts but his season hasn't gone very smoothly so far. He's quite a few minutes behind most of the players you're bringing up. We'll all be keeping an eye on his ast:to ratio but he's getting better overall every year (stay tuned).

Putting him in your 2nd tier is hate going out of its way. It's like driving by pedestrians the day after a rain and swerving to hit a puddle to drench them with street water. You're swerving on JB lol.

Spoiler:
BostonCouchGM wrote:I agree these lists can be subjective. But at least 30 of those names are 100% objectively better.

Maybe as a homer you can argue he's having a better season than the following but I don't buy it. And there's several in the 2nd list you could easily argue for against Jaylen as well which is why he's solidly in that 4-50 range which is not a bad thing

LaVine? 25-5-4 shooting 41% from three for the 1st place Bulls
DeRozan? 26-5-5 shooting 36% from three for 1st place Bulls and getting MVP chatter
Bam? 19-10-3 and one of the best bigs in the NBA for the 3rd place Heat
Melo? 19-7-8 shooting 38% from three for playoff bound 8th seed Hornets
VanVleet? 22-5-7 shooting 41% from three with decent defense for playoff bound 7th seed TOR
Middleton? 19-5-5 shooting 38% from three for 4th seed defending champions.
Garland? 19-3-7 shooting 38% from three for 6th seed CLE
Valanciunas? 18-12-2 shooting 43% from three
Ingram? 22-6-5
Jamal Murray? 21-4-5 shooting 41% helping to lead Nuggets to 3rd seed last year when healthy
Dejounte Murray? 18-8-9 shooting 33% plus good defense

I want to see YOUR lists!

I have him ranked above all those players outside of LaVine. You could make a case for DeRozan, Bam, and Jamal but I wouldn't call it clear-cut. Maybe LaMelo but I think that's more of a projection atm. He's not currently better than Jaylen. I'd strongly consider making that trade though lol. Fred is an interesting player right now. He's shooting well from the lines but he's got like 350 more minutes over Jaylen this season. Fred's a better shooter in general even if Jaylen brings his 3p% and ft% back up. Jamal is another interesting name. Get well soon, Jamal. I don't think that's a homer take limited to Celtics fans, "100% objectively" lol.

I think Bam and Jonas are better centers than Jaylen but not quite better players. I think LaMelo, Garland and D Murray are better point guards than Jaylen but not currently better players.

Why would you rank DeRozan, Bam and Jamal over JB? Why would you rank Ingram, Middleton, Garland, Jonas, or D Murray over him? You've glossed over pretty much all context so I'm not sure what your opinion actually comes down to on these head to head comparisons. Are these guys you'd trade him for? I'm more interested in your reasoning than your list.

2021 All Star team
Spoiler:
Beal
Kyrie
Giannis
Durant
Embiid

Jaylen
Harden
LaVine
Simmons
Randle
Sabonis
Tatum
Nikola V

Curry
Luka
Lebron
Kawhi
Nikola J

Booker
Conley
Lillard
Donovan
Paul
Davis
George
Zion
Rudy

LeBron picked Jaylen at 17 over Randle, Nikola V, Sabonis, and George, Donovan, Rudy.

Looking at those rosters we can probably remove 4 or 5 players from each the East and West this season. Who do we replace them with? Who does Jaylen get bumped for? Not so much interested in the fan vote but I guess it's relevant.

* I used https://www.basketball-reference.com for quick comparisons but I'm in my phone so I might've overlooked some things even I was responding to your second list.

"Why would you rank DeRozan, Bam and Jamal over JB? Why would you rank Ingram, Middleton, Garland, Jonas, or D Murray over him? You've glossed over pretty much all context so I'm not sure what your opinion actually comes down to on these head to head comparisons. Are these guys you'd trade him for? I'm more interested in your reasoning than your list."

thanks for asking and engaging.

Bam is obvious. He plays a shallower position. He's helped lead his team to a FInals. He's one of the best defenders in the league and best centers in the league and his team is 3rd in the standings. He also still has some upside so yeah, I and pretty much every G.M. in the league would trade Jaylen for Bam.

DeRozan is a legit MVP candidate. I don't understand why this would be puzzling. His addition and impact for the Bulls has been massive. He's been a true #1 and #2 for most of his career. He's a better scorer and facilitator. I view him as better than Jaylen but at one time Jaylen looked like he'd be better because of his defense. Since that's gone away and with his health concerns. I could see why teams would rather have DeRozan right now over Jaylen. If I'm trying to win a championship in the next 2-3 years I'm taking DeRozan over Jaylen.

I wanted us to draft Murray in 2016. I saw him as a Steph lite player. Last playoffs he showed that's what he was, leading his team as the first scoring option to the WCF. That means a lot to me. He's a better facilitator and once Jaylen's defense dropped, it eliminated the edge Jaylen might have had. But it's extremely close and I wouldn't argue about anyone preferring Jaylen

Ingram is 6'9" and can score effortlessly and is a better facilitator. He's also proven to be a #1 option. Yes I trade Jaylen for him

Middleton is a proven #2 that at times, can carry a team, and did, in the playoffs and the Finals. He's a much better facilitator and better shooter both 3 and FT. He's a proven commodity, multiple all-star and NBA champion. Yes I trade Jaylen for him

Garland is one of the best young PG in the world and his ascension to starter and star has been instrumental in the Cavs improvement. Obviously I trade Jaylen for him.

Dejounte Murray is among the best defenders at the PG position or any position. He's a better facilitator and can be a team's #1 as he has proven against us. He's not too far from averaging a triple double. And he doesn't hunt uncontested defensive rebounds and assists to get there. Yes I make that trade. He'd compliment Tatum so well.

LaMelo is clearly one of the best young players in the league so I shouldn't have to justify why he's better than Jaylen. They aren't even in the same tier. It's not debatable. He's just 20 y/o with a very bright future. Me and every G.M. is making that trade

Valanciunas is probably the best stretch 5 in the game. As our roster is currently constituted, I think him as our 5 would make us much much better. He's also a great rebounder. He's a better stretch 5, which is huge in today's game, then Jaylen is a 2. Just smack dab in the middle of his prime too. I think I'd make the trade if it made Tatum happy because we'd win more and because of Jaylen's injury history. If Tatum was against it, no.

Jaylen is a great scorer on all three levels. While he can get to his spot and hit jumpers and get to the hoop and finish, he's not the greatest FT shooter and can't get his own 3 pt shot like most other elite scorers. His defense is now average at best. He's a capable passer in that when he's in a bind he can deliver a pass but he's not very adept at setting defenders up with a pass in mind though he shows flashes once in a while. He should be so much better considering his ability to draw help defenders. He's elite on pull-ups and wide open threes. He's way too streaky and has a negative assist/TO ration which his fanboys can't stand to hear for some reason as if it's a made up number or inconsequential lol. Mostly, I think he's got a shorter shelf-life due to his injuries so that's a concern. And he's not a good fit next to Tatum who is also a chucker but at least is a much better passer and defender.

As for last year's all-star nod. It's political and a popularity contest. And Jaylen was shooting out of his mind the first half of the season. When the majority of the all-star voting push was happening Jaylen was shooting 44% from three and was the best mid-range shooter in the league. The NBA media adores outspoken woke and political guys like him so when he was putting up great stats he was going to make it. Several other players could have gotten the nod though especially by the time the actual game came when Jaylen had come down to Earth. Since so many guys sit out or have injuries it's almost a given he'll sneak into future all-star teams whether deserved or not.

rd26 · Post #74 » by **rd26** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:52 am

Dear mods, can you please give BCGM his own thread for his list, troll or campaign to educate all the poor JB fans.

I don't post much, but this will be the 4th interesting thread turned into an unreadable wall of text by this guy.
.

Saint Lazarus · Post #75 » by **Saint Lazarus** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:02 am

BostonCouchGM wrote:
Saint Lazarus wrote:
The Comedian wrote:

Haters and fanboys is like gasoline and a match.

If I'm being 100% serious for a second (which I rarely am when discussing hoops), I'm tired of this board constantly **** on Brown, Tatum, and saying they need to be broken up.

And it's not even like intelligent (and constructive) criticism. It's just "yeah here's 50 players that are OBJECTIVELY BETTER than Brown" **** posts.

I want to read someone analyze how Tatum and Brown can get better. What kind of plays can they run together to maximize their efficiency? Do we have any comps of dynamic duos in the past or present that they can emulate?

Nope. It's just point out his 1:1 AST-TO ratio and conjure up some trade proposal for Sabonis.

nice fake outrage. I've posted many many times how Brown could improve and be utilized better. You and your ilk just either ignore it or mock it because you're triggered by anything that doesn't praise them endlessly or claim "tRoLlInG" or "hAtEr". It's weak. And it's 30, not 50, objectively better.

go touch grass

TommyPointGawd · Post #76 » by **TommyPointGawd** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:40 am

This is by far the most measured and thought out I've seen BostonCouch. But you can't really expect people to take it seriously with the history of completely bashing a guy.
Is his defense that bad? I feel like he has been pretty solid this year.

ballup · Post #77 » by **ballup** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:37 pm

BostonCouchGM wrote:
ryan in Maine wrote:
BostonCouchGM wrote:whenever people praise Jaylen and claim he's a top 25-30 player I look at our record and wonder how we suck despite supposedly having a top 10-15 player in Tatum and top 25-30 in Jaylen. Something is off. In today's NBA, high usage chuckers are going to put up numbers. Someone has to.

At the end of the day this team goes as far as Tatum takes us right? Once Tatum and Brown improve their overall feel for the game to the point where they're consistently making the right play, we'll look better. They're still figuring their overall games out. They're still finding their rhythm too.

Jaylen's shooting is down from the past couple of seasons but he's not a chucker. I'm not saying he never does because I've seen it with my own eyes lol but not so much as to earn him the label going forward.

Spoiler:
BostonCouchGM wrote:How about we do an updated top 40 (and beyond)? This always bring out the well thought-out responses devoid of emotional outbursts?! In a very loose order:

Giannis
KD
Steph
Lebron
Embiid
Jokic
Trae
Mitchell
Tatum
George
Kawhi
Kyrie
Harden
Butler
LaMelo
Zion
Gobert
Luka
DeRozan
LaVine
Tatum
Beal
KAT
AD
Lillard
Booker
Bam
Ingram
VanVleet
SGA
Middleton
Garland
Sabonis
Jrue
Murray, D
CP3
McCollum
Morant
Murray, J
Valanciunas

Then you have the next group of guys where Jaylen belongs.

MPJ
Siakam
Anunoby
Murray
Porzingis
Jaylen
Wiggins
Grant
Lonzo
Klay
Miles Bridges
Randle
Draymond
Edwards
Hayward
Barnes
Mobley
Cunnhingham
Westbrook
Fox
Allen
DeAngelo

No way does an All Star player voted in by the teams themselves in 2021 belong in that 2nd tier. There's a grip of guys in your 1st tier who make for interesting discussion and we could have fun with that. These lists are subjective of course and there's more competition from a few players making a babe for themselves this season but that's a blatant agenda post. Preemptive accusations of emotional outbursts? C'mon, man. Nobody here is afraid of a friendly debate.

Jaylen's stats are going to look better when the season ends imo. Right now it's fits and starts but his season hasn't gone very smoothly so far. He's quite a few minutes behind most of the players you're bringing up. We'll all be keeping an eye on his ast:to ratio but he's getting better overall every year (stay tuned).

Putting him in your 2nd tier is hate going out of its way. It's like driving by pedestrians the day after a rain and swerving to hit a puddle to drench them with street water. You're swerving on JB lol.

Spoiler:
BostonCouchGM wrote:I agree these lists can be subjective. But at least 30 of those names are 100% objectively better.

Maybe as a homer you can argue he's having a better season than the following but I don't buy it. And there's several in the 2nd list you could easily argue for against Jaylen as well which is why he's solidly in that 4-50 range which is not a bad thing

LaVine? 25-5-4 shooting 41% from three for the 1st place Bulls
DeRozan? 26-5-5 shooting 36% from three for 1st place Bulls and getting MVP chatter
Bam? 19-10-3 and one of the best bigs in the NBA for the 3rd place Heat
Melo? 19-7-8 shooting 38% from three for playoff bound 8th seed Hornets
VanVleet? 22-5-7 shooting 41% from three with decent defense for playoff bound 7th seed TOR
Middleton? 19-5-5 shooting 38% from three for 4th seed defending champions.
Garland? 19-3-7 shooting 38% from three for 6th seed CLE
Valanciunas? 18-12-2 shooting 43% from three
Ingram? 22-6-5
Jamal Murray? 21-4-5 shooting 41% helping to lead Nuggets to 3rd seed last year when healthy
Dejounte Murray? 18-8-9 shooting 33% plus good defense

I want to see YOUR lists!

I have him ranked above all those players outside of LaVine. You could make a case for DeRozan, Bam, and Jamal but I wouldn't call it clear-cut. Maybe LaMelo but I think that's more of a projection atm. He's not currently better than Jaylen. I'd strongly consider making that trade though lol. Fred is an interesting player right now. He's shooting well from the lines but he's got like 350 more minutes over Jaylen this season. Fred's a better shooter in general even if Jaylen brings his 3p% and ft% back up. Jamal is another interesting name. Get well soon, Jamal. I don't think that's a homer take limited to Celtics fans, "100% objectively" lol.

I think Bam and Jonas are better centers than Jaylen but not quite better players. I think LaMelo, Garland and D Murray are better point guards than Jaylen but not currently better players.

Why would you rank DeRozan, Bam and Jamal over JB? Why would you rank Ingram, Middleton, Garland, Jonas, or D Murray over him? You've glossed over pretty much all context so I'm not sure what your opinion actually comes down to on these head to head comparisons. Are these guys you'd trade him for? I'm more interested in your reasoning than your list.

2021 All Star team
Spoiler:
Beal
Kyrie
Giannis
Durant
Embiid

Jaylen
Harden
LaVine
Simmons
Randle
Sabonis
Tatum
Nikola V

Curry
Luka
Lebron
Kawhi
Nikola J

Booker
Conley
Lillard
Donovan
Paul
Davis
George
Zion
Rudy

LeBron picked Jaylen at 17 over Randle, Nikola V, Sabonis, and George, Donovan, Rudy.

Looking at those rosters we can probably remove 4 or 5 players from each the East and West this season. Who do we replace them with? Who does Jaylen get bumped for? Not so much interested in the fan vote but I guess it's relevant.

* I used https://www.basketball-reference.com for quick comparisons but I'm in my phone so I might've overlooked some things even I was responding to your second list.

"Why would you rank DeRozan, Bam and Jamal over JB? Why would you rank Ingram, Middleton, Garland, Jonas, or D Murray over him? You've glossed over pretty much all context so I'm not sure what your opinion actually comes down to on these head to head comparisons. Are these guys you'd trade him for? I'm more interested in your reasoning than your list."

thanks for asking and engaging.

Bam is obvious. He plays a shallower position. He's helped lead his team to a FInals. He's one of the best defenders in the league and best centers in the league and his team is 3rd in the standings. He also still has some upside so yeah, I and pretty much every G.M. in the league would trade Jaylen for Bam.

DeRozan is a legit MVP candidate. I don't understand why this would be puzzling. His addition and impact for the Bulls has been massive. He's been a true #1 and #2 for most of his career. He's a better scorer and facilitator. I view him as better than Jaylen but at one time Jaylen looked like he'd be better because of his defense. Since that's gone away and with his health concerns. I could see why teams would rather have DeRozan right now over Jaylen. If I'm trying to win a championship in the next 2-3 years I'm taking DeRozan over Jaylen.

I wanted us to draft Murray in 2016. I saw him as a Steph lite player. Last playoffs he showed that's what he was, leading his team as the first scoring option to the WCF. That means a lot to me. He's a better facilitator and once Jaylen's defense dropped, it eliminated the edge Jaylen might have had. But it's extremely close and I wouldn't argue about anyone preferring Jaylen

Ingram is 6'9" and can score effortlessly and is a better facilitator. He's also proven to be a #1 option. Yes I trade Jaylen for him

Middleton is a proven #2 that at times, can carry a team, and did, in the playoffs and the Finals. He's a much better facilitator and better shooter both 3 and FT. He's a proven commodity, multiple all-star and NBA champion. Yes I trade Jaylen for him

Garland is one of the best young PG in the world and his ascension to starter and star has been instrumental in the Cavs improvement. Obviously I trade Jaylen for him.

Dejounte Murray is among the best defenders at the PG position or any position. He's a better facilitator and can be a team's #1 as he has proven against us. He's not too far from averaging a triple double. And he doesn't hunt uncontested defensive rebounds and assists to get there. Yes I make that trade. He'd compliment Tatum so well.

LaMelo is clearly one of the best young players in the league so I shouldn't have to justify why he's better than Jaylen. They aren't even in the same tier. It's not debatable. He's just 20 y/o with a very bright future. Me and every G.M. is making that trade

Valanciunas is probably the best stretch 5 in the game. As our roster is currently constituted, I think him as our 5 would make us much much better. He's also a great rebounder. He's a better stretch 5, which is huge in today's game, then Jaylen is a 2. Just smack dab in the middle of his prime too. I think I'd make the trade if it made Tatum happy because we'd win more and because of Jaylen's injury history. If Tatum was against it, no.

Jaylen is a great scorer on all three levels. While he can get to his spot and hit jumpers and get to the hoop and finish, he's not the greatest FT shooter and can't get his own 3 pt shot like most other elite scorers. His defense is now average at best. He's a capable passer in that when he's in a bind he can deliver a pass but he's not very adept at setting defenders up with a pass in mind though he shows flashes once in a while. He should be so much better considering his ability to draw help defenders. He's elite on pull-ups and wide open threes. He's way too streaky and has a negative assist/TO ration which his fanboys can't stand to hear for some reason as if it's a made up number or inconsequential lol. Mostly, I think he's got a shorter shelf-life due to his injuries so that's a concern. And he's not a good fit next to Tatum who is also a chucker but at least is a much better passer and defender.

As for last year's all-star nod. It's political and a popularity contest. And Jaylen was shooting out of his mind the first half of the season. When the majority of the all-star voting push was happening Jaylen was shooting 44% from three and was the best mid-range shooter in the league. The NBA media adores outspoken woke and political guys like him so when he was putting up great stats he was going to make it. Several other players could have gotten the nod though especially by the time the actual game came when Jaylen had come down to Earth. Since so many guys sit out or have injuries it's almost a given he'll sneak into future all-star teams whether deserved or not.

I've never heard of coaches putting much thought in their all star selections much less political considerations. Guess you have to make up some kind backwards logic to keep your narrative alive.

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Larry_Russell · Post #78 » by **Larry_Russell** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:55 pm

IDK how this turned into a thread of Jaylen is worse than these 15 guys when it was intended as a discussion as to his great improvements this season.

We have Bam lite in Williams, so no way I trade Brown for him. And in fact, I dont think many GMs would Center is easily replaceable in this NBA and I dont see Bam working for any coach other than Spolestra

Derozan has been great this year. I would not trade Brown for him as Brown is 25 and Demar is 32. Furthermore this is the best year of demars career. at age 32. I going to bet on brown being that good prior to 32.

Murray is undersized and doesnt play defense and has the benfit of fitting very well with the MVP of the league making his life alot easier.

Ingram has more difficulty scoring than Brown, that point makes no sense as offensive metrics favor Jaylen

Middleton is 30 years old and not as good as Jaylen. Thats just moronic

Garland can potentially be better than Brown. He is not nearly as versatile and not as good a defender, but he is young.

Murray cannot spread the floor and is inflated by playing on a **** team

LaMello, Maybe.

greenroom31 · Post #79 » by **greenroom31** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:48 pm

I don't understand (and never have) the energy this board spends complaining about Brown and Tatum's imperfections. They are the only two definite and major positives this organization has right now.

Much of the complaints and nitpicking would be addressed by having better players around them (a real point guard, better shooters, etc.) but instead of discussing those root cause issues, posters prefer to complain about the symptoms (too many turnovers, not enough assists). Spoiler: our 23 and 25 year old wings are not amazing distributors on top of being elite scorers... the horror!!

Equally pointless and annoying is the need by a great number of posters to compare Jaylen and Jayson on a nightly basis. It's sports radio hot-take garbage, and possibly fueled by the Victory Cigar vote. Jayson being good doesn't make Jaylen worse and vice versa. We don't have to compare them or complain about one every time the other has a good night. Yet I guarantee in 12 hours if one plays bad we will hear it again, win or lose... so dumb and pointless.

Larry_Russell · Post #80 » by **Larry_Russell** » Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:40 pm

greenroom31 wrote:I don't understand (and never have) the energy this board spends complaining about Brown and Tatum's imperfections. They are the only two definite and major positives this organization has right now.

Much of the complaints and nitpicking would be addressed by having better players around them (a real point guard, better shooters, etc.) but instead of discussing those root cause issues, posters prefer to complain about the symptoms (too many turnovers, not enough assists). Spoiler: our 23 and 25 year old wings are not amazing distributors on top of being elite scorers... the horror!!

Equally pointless and annoying is the need by a great number of posters to compare Jaylen and Jayson on a nightly basis. It's sports radio hot-take garbage, and possibly fueled by the Victory Cigar vote. Jayson being good doesn't make Jaylen worse and vice versa. We don't have to compare them or complain about one every time the other has a good night. Yet I guarantee in 12 hours if one plays bad we will hear it again, win or lose... so dumb and pointless.

Agreed.

Lets look at the positive of each along with the negatives

Brown
3 level scoring
rebounding
multipositional defense
athletic
pushes the ball
young
great contract
iso capable scorer
pick and roll operator
ability to be clutch

Cons
Not a great playmaker, but improving
Turns ball over more than you would like (although not terrible) partly due to con number 1

Tatum
3 level scoring
rebounding
defense
playmaking (greatly improving)
athletic
young
great contract
great handle
pick and roll operator iso capable scorer
ability to be clutch

Cons
Not shooting his averages
can settle at times.

Not alot of cons here