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Figured I'd make a separate thread for this so the posts don't get all mixed up with the ones in the trade thread.

To kick things off, let's talk big men.

Look, let's not beat around the bush. We all know that a backup big man is the team's biggest need - ever since we traded Theis and didn't add a big to replace him. Well, except for Kabengele but he's only on a 2-way.

Let's start the conversation with these 2 names...

Edy Tavares and Georgios Papagiannis.

The 2 best bigs in the world who are playing professionally but not in the NBA.

Who's better? Gun to my head, I'd say Tavares. He made all-Euroleague 1st team this season, whereas Papagiannis made 2nd team. Overall, he is a more accomplished player overseas.

Tavares is bigger, stronger and a more dominant inside player.

However, Papagiannis is a little bit more mobile, he is a much better mid range shooter (does not shoot 3's but is money in the mid range area, even right inside the 3 pt line he knocks them down very well so better for floor spacing) and the big advantage Papagiannis has is being 5 years younger than Tavares. Papagiannis just turned 25 so if we got him we could actually keep him for awhile, develop him both short term and long term whereas Tavares would be more of a short term guy who has already peaked.

Papagiannis does have a buyout clause in his contract, but it must not be too expensive since the Bucks were rumored to be interested in signing him - prior to resigning Ibaka:


It appears Tavares does not have a buyout clause - he probably made his contract like that on purpose, to leave the door open for a possible return to the NBA:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markdeeks/2022/05/30/losers-of-the-rudy-gobert-bidding-war-could-find-a-decent-plan-b-in-spain/?sh=403d3fa19179

The other guys who are rumored to be potential targets for the Celtics - Howard, Whiteside, Aldridge, Cousins, Harrell. Tavares and Papagiannis are better than all of those guys, no question about it - especially with how old those other guys are, some of the health/injury cousins they have, attitude/locker room presence concerns, etc.

Lastly, here's a few other international big men to know about:

Mike Tobey - good 3 pt shooter, also a good lob threat - just started playing for Slovenia national team alongside Luka Doncic and has paired very well with Doncic in the PnR. He would probably be my 3rd choice after Tavares/Papagiannis.

Kyle Hines - out of all these guys, he is probably the best passer, best perimeter defender. Good rim protector, can see him just being a good role player who can fit in within a winning team, accept his role. Undersized big man though so sometimes opposing bigs will tower over him for rebounds and baskets inside. Can shoot in mid range decently but can't shoot from 3, and the biggest drawback is that at age 35 (turns 36 in September) you're probably only gonna get 1 more season out of him and a guy at that age, so late in his career is probably not looking to make the move from EuroLeague to NBA

Chinanu Onuaku - rumor has it we worked him out in late June. Then he had a workout for a few NBA teams in Vegas during summer league. The fact that we still haven't signed him tells me we probably won't. Also, I'm not super high on him because he is kind of slow, looks a little bulky and out of shape. Kabengele is probably just as good as him and is a little bit quicker, more mobile IMO.

Glancing at stats, Tavarez doesn't appear to have evolved much, if at all, since he left the NBA, per minute his production looks similar to what they were before he was drafted, even. If he couldn't make it then, I'm not sure why he would make it now. He's also at least thirty years old with limited upside. You say good things about him but IIRC similar things were said about him when he was a draft prospect way back when.

Papagiannis looks like he has improved noticeably over the past two seasons. In particular, his block/foul and A/TO ratios have evolved quite a bit. When he entered the NBA there were questions regarding his lateral quickness and his maturity/attitude/etc. I imagine those question marks will persist. I'd be down to give him a look.

Tobey can shoot apparently, but is there anything that makes you think he could defend any position better than Gallo? Hines is 6'6 and a little foul prone in Europe, I would assume something similar about him. His collegiate stats weren't bad but I presume there are reasons he never made it in the NBA.

Not sure how to interpret Onuaku's production in Israel. I liked him out of Louisville. His profile is similar to Kabengele's, wouldn't add much to the equation.

I’m international. I could help.

I’m 43 years old, about 6’1, and at my peak I was below average at best. And my peak is a long way behind me.

Ed Pinkney wrote:I’m international. I could help.

I’m 43 years old, about 6’1, and at my peak I was below average at best. And my peak is a long way behind me.

Hal, give us the scouting report

threrf23 wrote:

Ed Pinkney wrote:I’m international. I could help.

I’m 43 years old, about 6’1, and at my peak I was below average at best. And my peak is a long way behind me.

Hal, give us the scouting report

lol

Which of these guys would play for money we can offer?

I presume Gallo used up the MLE.

I haven't checked whether we can withstand a hard cap and hence use the BAE.

Poirier and Yabadoobadibadooo ??

I'd say cool but adding another vet Instead of outsider is way more valuable in the NBA Finals! So before either dude you mentioned an albeit I've not researched either guy adding a vet big is better!

captain green wrote:I'd say cool but adding another vet Instead of outsider is way more valuable in the NBA Finals! So before either dude you mentioned an albeit I've not researched either guy adding a vet big is better!

I hear ya. A vet probably is ideal, but just my opinion that Tavares and Papagiannis are better than the vets (Thompson, aldridge, whiteside, howard, Griffin, Harrell, cousins) especially when factoring in that the vets are old so on the decline and many of them have injury concerns or concerns about attitude, fit in the locker room, etc.

Fencer reregistered wrote:Which of these guys would play for money we can offer?

I presume Gallo used up the MLE.

I haven't checked whether we can withstand a hard cap and hence use the BAE.

We only have the minimum to offer. Tavares makes $2 mil a year. He has 2 yrs of NBA experience so the minimum we can pay him is like $1.8 mil. I figure to get him we'd have to match the $2 mil salary he has overseas. Question is, will that be enough to get him to come over here and be a 3rd string center when he is a starter and best big man in Europe? Probably not - the pitch you'd have to give him is "Hey man, look - you tried to make it in the NBA before but couldn't make it - but that was 5 years ago - you've gotten way better since then - now's your chance to prove you are capable of being a solid NBA player - now's your chance to contribute to a championship contending NBA team - you've got nothing else to prove over in Europe - and since you're 30 yrs old, it's now or never to give it another shot at playing in the NBA"

More info on Papagiannis' contract and release clause here:
https://newsbeezer.com/greeceeng/the-data-for-the-nba-can-be-found-in-his-contract-with-panathinaikos/

Looks like the most an NBA team can pay towards the buyout of his european team contract is $750K, plus the minimum salary of $1.8 mil.. sounds like he does want to try and come back to the NBA though..

Reported salaries are pre tax in the NBA but post tax in Europe. In Tavares' tax bracket that's a big difference. So even though a 1.8 million minimum salary might sound similar to the 2 millions he's making in Europe it's really not.

Miirotic. No close second. Of course he's not available, but....

threrf23 wrote:Glancing at stats, Tavarez doesn't appear to have evolved much, if at all, since he left the NBA, per minute his production looks similar to what they were before he was drafted, even. If he couldn't make it then, I'm not sure why he would make it now. He's also at least thirty years old with limited upside. You say good things about him but IIRC similar things were said about him when he was a draft prospect way back when.

Papagiannis looks like he has improved noticeably over the past two seasons. In particular, his block/foul and A/TO ratios have evolved quite a bit. When he entered the NBA there were questions regarding his lateral quickness and his maturity/attitude/etc. I imagine those question marks will persist. I'd be down to give him a look.

Tobey can shoot apparently, but is there anything that makes you think he could defend any position better than Gallo? Hines is 6'6 and a little foul prone in Europe, I would assume something similar about him. His collegiate stats weren't bad but I presume there are reasons he never made it in the NBA.

Not sure how to interpret Onuaku's production in Israel. I liked him out of Louisville. His profile is similar to Kabengele's, wouldn't add much to the equation.

I agree with a lot of this. But in terms of Tavares' stats, I think his stats might not jump off the page, because he has played for a REALLY good team. Vincent Poirier (by far the best backup big man in Europe) means less mins for Tavares. Also, Real Madrid plays both of them together a decent amount, so if Tavares is out on the court with another good big man on his own team, makes it harder to rack up the pts, rebs and blocks.

Tavares is more impressive when it comes to the eye test, rather than the stats. Here's a couple of good vids on him:




Agreed that Papagiannis is worth a look. He is playing for Greece in the Euro Basket tournament in August. His teammate on team Greece? Giannis. So they will have Giannis at the 4 and Papagiannis at the 5, lol. If Papagiannis plays really well there, we might be competing with a few teams to try and sign him..

As far as Tobey's defense, he seems ok. Not great, not bad. Serviceable. Probably as good as Kornet on D, but IMO definitely better than Kornet on offense - a better shooter, moves quicker, with more tenacity and more coordination when setting screens and flashing to the basket for lobs, better lob finisher with better athleticism.

Would really like to see us bring in at least 1 of them for a workout..

Curmudgeon wrote:Miirotic. No close second. Of course he's not available, but....

Eh, IDK. Really good player. But he's more of a 4 than a 5. Also, not sure how well he'd be defensively in the NBA, especially at his age (31, turns 32 this season so he has already peaked and will only decline from here on..) I feel like anyone over 30, their window for coming over from overseas to NBA has probably closed..

I feel like he is kind of similar to Gallinari so not really needed since we have Gallo..

I could be wrong, though. Haven't seen a ton of him.

Smart2Nesmith43 wrote:Reported salaries are pre tax in the NBA but post tax in Europe. In Tavares' tax bracket that's a big difference. So even though a 1.8 million minimum salary might sound similar to the 2 millions he's making in Europe it's really not.

Yeah, that is gonna make it tough to get Tavares to sign for the minimum then. If he's gonna come over here, he'd probably want an NBA team to give him more of a role than we can offer and more $ than we can offer. Bummer..

I'm still on the Baynes train. He just signed with the Brisbane Bullets, and the contract allows for him to jump if given an NBA contract.

LewisnotMiller wrote:I'm still on the Baynes train. He just signed with the Brisbane Bullets, and the contract allows for him to jump if given an NBA contract.

Maybe. Perhaps they are going to monitor how he plays early on in the NBL season and if he is looking good and producing, maybe sign him like 2 months into the season.

He was pretty bad for toronto in 2020-2021 season though - I figure he's only gotten worse now, with that being 2 years ago and he didn't play all of last season.

Hal14 wrote:

LewisnotMiller wrote:I'm still on the Baynes train. He just signed with the Brisbane Bullets, and the contract allows for him to jump if given an NBA contract.

Maybe. Perhaps they are going to monitor how he plays early on in the NBL season and if he is looking good and producing, maybe sign him like 2 months into the season.

He was pretty bad for toronto in 2020-2021 season though - I figure he's only gotten worse now, with that being 2 years ago and he didn't play all of last season.

Yup, I hear ya, and it makes some sense to use a 2 way player early and just see what shakes out (Baynes or whomever else).

But I'm not projecting him as more than a tenth man, which is different to what he was previously asked to do.

Throw some weight around in limited minutes, play more minutes in regular season games where Rob and/or Al are chilling, give a hard foul where we are getting pushed around, shoot the three when there is no one within 15 feet of you, set 18 screens per minute.

He fits the Theis replacement role more neatly than Theis did. Plus, we need an Australian, and I rate him higher than Luc Longley at this point.

How ‘bout Yam? They don’t really need the guy now but maybe if there’s some roster moves.