Brogdon is Right

[bfchs123]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/37708786/malcolm-brogdon-says-celtics-identity-waned-season

MIAMI -- As the Boston Celtics stare down the possibility of being swept out of the Eastern Conference finals, guard Malcolm Brogdon said the team's issues against Miami in this series are a symptom of season-long issues against consistent opponents, adding that Boston's identity has "waned all year long" and that its defense has slipped.

"I think it's teams that have a strong identity," Brogdon said during an off-day availability session Monday afternoon at the team's hotel ahead of Game 4 Tuesday night. "I think Miami is one of the teams, one of the few teams in the league -- Miami, Denver, there are only a few of them -- that have a really strong identity and they play by it every single night. They're super committed to it.

"And, for us, our identity has waned all year long. We've been trying to figure out who we are, because I think we're such a great, talented scoring team, but when we don't make shots, we got to rely on our defense, and our defense isn't consistent every night.

"So, playing a team that's very consistent and disciplined, we struggle."

I recall earlier in the season that Brogdon said this was the best environment he has ever been apart of. Maybe something has changed as times got tougher but have to think that is reasonably still true. What the results reflect is a great collection of talent that wins more often than not (Heat series aside) but has no identity and no consistency. Early in the season it was historic offense (that was unsustainable), as the year progressed it became less clear. They were ok-to-good at everything but not elite

The roster construction is as good as it will ever be. A clear superstar, an all-NBA #2, 3 all-NBA defenders, the 6th man of the year, veteran PF, etc. - but there was never a clear identity. Last year's team to was infinitely better - elite defense where it didn't always matter if you had an off shooting night because you were holding teams to sub-100 points. Any team built on 3pt that is not the GSW's of the world is a fools errand

This isn't a new point but to me that starts with coaching - we need someone now who can put the pieces together. The core has now won a ton of playoff series so it is shocking that they are still having these hiccups. They ran into a very good, experienced veteran GSW last year (that they took to 6 games) and that was supposed to be the initial experience that takes them over the hump. It has now been ~3-4 ECF+ runs with this group, how are we STILL not the team with the really strong identity?

[Fencer reregistered]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/37708786/malcolm-brogdon-says-celtics-identity-waned-season

MIAMI -- As the Boston Celtics stare down the possibility of being swept out of the Eastern Conference finals, guard Malcolm Brogdon said the team's issues against Miami in this series are a symptom of season-long issues against consistent opponents, adding that Boston's identity has "waned all year long" and that its defense has slipped.

"I think it's teams that have a strong identity," Brogdon said during an off-day availability session Monday afternoon at the team's hotel ahead of Game 4 Tuesday night. "I think Miami is one of the teams, one of the few teams in the league -- Miami, Denver, there are only a few of them -- that have a really strong identity and they play by it every single night. They're super committed to it.

"And, for us, our identity has waned all year long. We've been trying to figure out who we are, because I think we're such a great, talented scoring team, but when we don't make shots, we got to rely on our defense, and our defense isn't consistent every night.

"So, playing a team that's very consistent and disciplined, we struggle."

I recall earlier in the season that Brogdon said this was the best environment he has ever been apart of. Maybe something has changed as times got tougher but have to think that is reasonably still true. What the results reflect is a great collection of talent that wins more often than not (Heat series aside) but has no identity and no consistency. Early in the season it was historic offense (that was unsustainable), as the year progressed it became less clear. They were ok-to-good at everything but not elite

The roster construction is as good as it will ever be. A clear superstar, an all-NBA #2, 3 all-NBA defenders, the 6th man of the year, veteran PF, etc. - but there was never a clear identity. Last year's team to was infinitely better - elite defense where it didn't always matter if you had an off shooting night because you were holding teams to sub-100 points. Any team built on 3pt that is not the GSW's of the world is a fools errand

This isn't a new point but to me that starts with coaching - we need someone now who can put the pieces together. The core has now won a ton of playoff series so it is shocking that they are still having these hiccups. They ran into a very good, experienced veteran GSW last year (that they took to 6 games) and that was supposed to be the initial experience that takes them over the hump. It has now been ~3-4 ECF+ runs with this group, how are we STILL not the team with the really strong identity?

Almost every season for years has had a change either in top-dog player(s) or else, when that finally slowed down, in head coach.

[Fencer reregistered]

Past 4 seasons:

-- Bubble, and Hayward was still on the team.
-- Jays' first season as unquestioned team leaders. Went badly from beginning to end, including in roster changes. Pandemic was still relevant.
-- New GM. New coach, and generally massive coaching turnover. Made Finals.
-- New coach, and generally major coaching turnover. Currently doing horribly in the ECF.

[Celtic_Pride777]

Brogdon getting credit for the comments he made is laughable to me. He got paid 23 million dollars a year and scored 0 points last night and then took 0 accountability after the game. He’s getting praise for this?

[hugepatsfan]

We can talk Tatum/Brown pairing as we have for years now. Plenty of discussion has been had and remains to be had there... But I see a few other areas of skill set mismatch or duplication on this team and some role issues:

1) Smart and White. There are some differences to their game to where I wouldn't say they're the same player, but I think they're both designed for the same role. Both are all NBA caliber individual defenders, but a big part of that is both of them bring great size at the PG position. They're both uniquely able to handle switches onto bigger players relative to other PGs. That's key though "relative to other PGs". By playing them together and pushing one to SG as much as we have, I think we've undermined their defensive abilities. Then there is the issue of offense. White shot pretty well this year, but a big part of floor spacing goes beyond your percentage - it's about the attention defenses give you and how that opens the floor for others. I don't think White commands that respect even on a good percentage. Smart same thing, though his percentage isn't as good obviously. Both of them are capable enough shooters to play, but neither is good enough to where you can play them both together without that being exploited against well coached and disciplined teams IMO.

In summary, I think by playing Smart and White together as much as we do we put both of them in position to fail. Both can play on my team any day, but it should be separate. In an ideal world, you'd play each 24 minutes with no overlap IMO. But the problem there I'd argue is that it isn't your best allocation of resources to tie so much money up in that spot to have them split time like that. Particularly with Brogdon in the fold who is more than capable at PG as well and you see some of the same diminishing returns defensively sliding him down to SG.

2) The Horford/Rob rest schedules did NOT help at all in building an identity this year. The two-big lineups was the identity we forged last year. Because of the rest schedules and time missed, we really had no choice but to abandon that in the season. There were barely any games they both suited up for. And when they did both play, you still want to keep minutes down in the regular season which meant it was hard to use their minutes on time together without needing another big in the rotation that we didn't have. It felt like we had players clinging on to that identity and assuming we'd go back to it, but a coach who wanted to build a new identity. And the fact that injuries forced it pushed aside that clash and they never really reconciled it during the season since it wasn't even a real option to them to play two bigs much.

At the absolute minimum they need a guy like Theis who can soak up regular season minutes at the 5 so they can get proper rest and not leave us susceptible to getting caught empty handed and making it tougher to secure seeding. If they want to make two-bigs their identity again, I think they need to go get another playoff rotation caliber center to split time with Rob so they can make Horford a 4 for more of his time.

3) A big part of any team is how you space the floor. That's such a key skill set in role players obviously. Grant Williams, Hauser, Pritchard are 3 good shooters who help with that. Problem is, they're our 8th/9th/10th best players. Those are the guys who get cut out altogether or have their minutes drastically reduced in a playoff rotation. So a lot of the floor spacing we got in the season has evaporated in the playoffs. It particularly compounds with with the Smart/White issue I mentioned above.


I think those things contribute to lack of team identity that Brogdon mentions. I'd like to see a little more stability this offseason and less mixing and matching. Clearly define who is meant to be played with who, at least to start with.

[Mr_Mojo_Risin]

I like Brogdon and he’s not wrong, but he’s our worst defender in our top 8, maybe 10.

[threrf23]

Brogdon is very right and I love how he articulated that.

Like, if it were possible, I would make him coach from here on out and give DWhite his role if he couldn't make it as a player coach.

Anyways I think there is more to it than that, but they do say, if you don't stand for something, you can fall for anything.

And, what the hell does our team stand for lately? I'm not sure, all I know is that it falls easily.

Side note, while Brog is not a great defender, he isn't a doormat and is probably more competent defensively than a few of the guys in Miami's roation. I don't think his defense is a problem, I'm more concerned simply that we don't have a coach who seems to put any significant effort into simple adjustmjents and game planning.

[hugepatsfan]

I like Brogdon and he’s not wrong, but he’s our worst defender in our top 8, maybe 10.

That's probably true. But if Brogdon is the worst defensive player in your rotation then you should be dominant defensively because he's not that bad. Heck, don't even think he's "bad" in general. If he's your worse defender and you still suck on that end that speaks to your players' effort and your scheme/coaching because it's a sign you have the on paper talent to compete.

[Mr_Mojo_Risin]

I like Brogdon and he’s not wrong, but he’s our worst defender in our top 8, maybe 10.

That's probably true. But if Brogdon is the worst defensive player in your rotation then you should be dominant defensively because he's not that bad. Heck, don't even think he's "bad" in general. If he's your worse defender and you still suck on that end that speaks to your players' effort and your scheme/coaching because it's a sign you have the on paper talent to compete.

Quite true, but I guess my thinking is he has strength, speed and smarts, there is zero reason he should be as poor as he is on the defensive end. So I would hope that with comments like this, he is looking in the mirror first and that we will see a far better focus from him too on that end.

[jumblin]

Personally I think what keeps the Jays from taking the next step is a prideful love of iso ball. It almost feels like they don't want to run any offense that has actual plays because 'plays are for guys who don't have our talent'. They want to show their skill is superior to everyone else and iso is the way to do that.

[robbie84]

It's hard because our defense hasn't be great. It hasn't been awful either.

It's an easy excuse to use, but the reality is that the Miami Heat are playing incredible, scorching hot shooting basketball right now.
We've been up in the 4th quarter by 5+ points with 5/6 minutes remaining in two of these 3 games.

There is an execution problem late in games. That's what needs work (as well as our defense).
Mazulla needs to change his policy/strategy of letting the guys go off leash. They need guidance and assurance that their planned plays and sets will work. Kind of like a military exercise. So it's like going through the motions and there's no panic when the game gets to crunch time. a play, with a back up if that play breaks down, and then another wrinkle if that back up breaks down. Mazulla is letting them 'just play' too much. If he's not capable of bossing these guys around when they need it, then he needs to go.

[Deivork]

Spot on Brogs

[Fencer reregistered]

Brogdon getting credit for the comments he made is laughable to me. He got paid 23 million dollars a year and scored 0 points last night and then took 0 accountability after the game. He’s getting praise for this?

And he's not exactly a defensive leader.

Or an offensive one, actually. He's supposed to be a self-centered scorer; to his credit he doesn't take that to extremes; that's about as far as any offensive "leadership" goes.

[Mr_Mojo_Risin]

Re-watching game 4 again. Brogdon’s defense was almost worse than his previously ordinary defense. Too much ball watching, no real urgency, doesn’t move his feet and gives up after one attempt at staying in front. At times attempts an unlikely hero steal that opens up the team defense.

A major liability. He needs to shut up and show some real effort on that side. I don’t even care that his playmaking and shooting disappeared but you cannot have this lack of effort on the defensive end.

IMO if he doesn’t lift in this area in the first quarter of game 5 and doesn’t have something going offensively, Joe should replace his minutes partly with Grant/Hauser/PP.

[BK_2020]

Joe tried PP in game 1 but it was a disaster.

[Mr_Mojo_Risin]

Joe tried PP in game 1 but it was a disaster.

Doesn’t mean he’d be worse than Malcolm if given another chance. Mind you I’d prefer Grant and Hauser anyway. The point is Malcolm needs to lift on defense or be a major plus on offense to get more minutes in game 5 IMO.

[Triple7]

Joe tried PP in game 1 but it was a disaster.

It waa a disaster because Butler targetted him. Same thing butler did to grant in game 2, and butler did to Rob in game 3, all in the post. So i guess all 3 were awful defenders. Lol

[Triple7]

Joe tried PP in game 1 but it was a disaster.

Doesn’t mean he’d be worse than Malcolm if given another chance. Mind you I’d prefer Grant and Hauser anyway. The point is Malcolm needs to lift on defense or be a major plus on offense to get more minutes in game 5 IMO.

Malcolm needs to hit shots when he plays, else, he’s useless. Same thing with Smart. PP is one of the best shooters we have, and can break down defenses attack inside and dish. If Joe wanted to play him, he should use him properly. Use him if Butlers on the bench. I doubt he would have problems against lowry or vincent.

[zoyathedestroya]

Read on Twitter

Play him less. The shooting has plummeted and he can't finish inside. Weakest defender of the bunch. Would Hauser do any worse? Cs bigger lineups plus more shooting. Maybe equally worse as a team defender but maybe even better as an iso defender.

EDIT: Is RealGM a reliable aggregator/website? I heard there are a lot of trash content over there.

[TheMartian]

Joe tried PP in game 1 but it was a disaster.

Doesn’t mean he’d be worse than Malcolm if given another chance. Mind you I’d prefer Grant and Hauser anyway. The point is Malcolm needs to lift on defense or be a major plus on offense to get more minutes in game 5 IMO.

I think Hauser is a better option if Brogs is injured. He's much bigger than PP, and is actually an underrated defender. Teams keep on targeting him but he manages to hold his own. Surprised actually that he isn't seeing any time and Joe is sticking to a 7-man playoff rotation.