Knicks Series Retrospective

[Jammer]

Before rushing to conclusions about where to go from here, let's take a look at a series that could easily have been a Celtics 4-1 Win.

Game 1 - Knicks 108, Celtics 105
Tatum is off at 7-23 FG. Brown is off at 7-20 FG. Yet Tatum and Brown monopolized the 4th quarter to close out this win. Were there alternatives that a Coach could have designed better plays for JT and JB, or gotten shots to guys who were actually playing well in GAME 1 (Holiday 7-14, Pritch 3-6). Getting better looks, drives producing Free Throws or getting a shot to someone shooting better could have brought this game on home. The Celtics overall didn't shoot well (White 6-18, Horford 2-6, Zinger 0-4, Hauser 0-2) but you pay your coach to figure ways to get your primary options (JT and JB) better looks than ISO or get the ball to the guys who are on THAT DAY (Jrue and Pritch). Me, I put this loss on Joe's inadequacies for the situation, because I truly believe that this was a winnable game with better strategy (so I blame Joe more than JT and JB).

Game 2 - Knicks 91, Celtics 90
An almost impossible game for the Celtics to lose, but Joe let it happen despite a 20 pt. 2nd Half Lead AGAIN. Tatum (5-19) and Brown (8-23) are again off. White at 6-17 is not any better. Horford at 2-11 is clearly off. Holiday is 4-6, Zinger 3-5, Pritch 3-5 and Luke Kornet 3-4 but Luke can't be counted on during end of game intensity. What could Joe have run to get Tatum and Brown better looks, closer thru screens, drives to get to the line like the Knicks (Tatum had 2 Free Throws TOTAL, BROWN 4 TOTAL)? Here again, I think it's up to the coach to devise actions to get Tatum and Brown going downhill, with screens, even if Holiday is setting them because no one else has the IQ (other than Horford) to do it properly. This is one I also place on Joe despite the overall sub-par performances by JT and JB.

Game 3 - Celtics 115, Knicks 93. Knicks played poorly, would have lost 19 out of 20 times.

Game 4 - Knicks 121, Celtics 113. Celtics played well, Knicks played better. It happens. Tatum was on fire, despite his injury which I wonder if Josh Hart's trip set up, and Derrick White was on, but no one else. Hard to win with only 2 guys playing well.

Game 5 - Celtics 127, Knicks 102. Celtics were on Fire, destined to win easily. Knicks were off again.

Game 6 - Knicks 119, Celtics 81. No Celtic played well. JB was awful with 7 TOs, 6 Fouls, 8-20 FG. Pritch was OK. Destined to lose this one.

Conclusion
Under different circumstances (i.e. different Head Coach), the Celtics might have closed this series out 4-1. What did become clear was that those of us who continually cautioned about the effectiveness of Pritch, Hauser and Kornet deep in the playoffs were right, although Hauser was not 100% when he did play. Still, they were the concern that playahater and I continually cautioned. And Pritch has the lowest turnover ratio of any Celtic (why the hell does JT and JB do so much ball handling late in games where they get their pocket picked or make a lazy pass, c'mon Joe, put the ball in the hands of whose least likely to give it away). Don't ask me about next moves, I'm still processing this travesty.

P.S. Although overall Zinger, Kornet and Horford were very successful all year and even in their limited minutes in the playoffs, having 3 finesse centers (Zinger, Kornet, Queta) and not a BANGER/REBOUNDER/SCREENER/CHARGE TAKER (Xavier Tillman is useless at this point and undersized to be a True Center) is a GM Team Construction shortcoming. The Team could have used a guy like Dan Gafford more than Zinger or Kornet in this series.

[The Corey's]

Any other coach would be held accountable for what the Celtics have accomplished against the Knicks this year and the Heat two year ago.

Where were the adjustments? Where was your backup plan? Why doesn't this team run a offense outside of iso 3 bombing?

Seriously. Tatum and Brown don't move without the ball. They just stand around.

That's not good enough in the god damn NBA.

[Larry_Russell]

Joes refusal to adapt was apparent. Over and over.

Fire Joe is move #1

[31to6]

If it's a 'fire Joe' thread just call it that

[The Corey's]

If it's a 'fire Joe' thread just call it that

We like our offense.

[165bows]

If it's a 'fire Joe' thread just call it that

Yeah it’s kind of stupid imo. Same coach and scheme as last year players just couldn’t get it done.

Same group last year and they were an absolute buzz saw all year, this year they were worn down and hurt and maybe a bit old in spots.

[The Corey's]

If it's a 'fire Joe' thread just call it that

Yeah it’s kind of stupid imo. Same coach and scheme as last year players just couldn’t get it done.

Same group last year and they were an absolute buzz saw all year, this year they were worn down and hurt and maybe a bit old in spots.

The problem with this continuous response is it requires for people to accept that Joe was a reason they won last year and not just a passenger.

Not a single Joe supporter has been able to show that to be the case.

[165bows]

If it's a 'fire Joe' thread just call it that

Yeah it’s kind of stupid imo. Same coach and scheme as last year players just couldn’t get it done.

Same group last year and they were an absolute buzz saw all year, this year they were worn down and hurt and maybe a bit old in spots.

The problem with this continuous response is it requires for people to accept that Joe was a reason they won last year and not just a passenger.

Not a single Joe supporter has been able to show that to be the case.

So we think Joe got worse not the players?

[The Corey's]

Yeah it’s kind of stupid imo. Same coach and scheme as last year players just couldn’t get it done.

Same group last year and they were an absolute buzz saw all year, this year they were worn down and hurt and maybe a bit old in spots.

The problem with this continuous response is it requires for people to accept that Joe was a reason they won last year and not just a passenger.

Not a single Joe supporter has been able to show that to be the case.

So we think Joe got worse not the players?

do you really want to take the position that the players weren't good enough?

They played exactly how their coach wanted them to.

[165bows]

The problem with this continuous response is it requires for people to accept that Joe was a reason they won last year and not just a passenger.

Not a single Joe supporter has been able to show that to be the case.

So we think Joe got worse not the players?

do you really want to take the position that the players weren't good enough?

They played exactly how their coach wanted them to.

Yeah they played like ***. So he wanted them to play well last year but like *** this year? I’m confused.

[Jammer]

If it's a 'fire Joe' thread just call it that

I'm on record here, over 2 years ago, along with playahater and probably some others, that Joe wasn't up to the task of Playoff Basketball, but that he was a race car driver with the best car in the field and would therefore by default accrue a lot of wins. This is simply looking at what just happened. And after thinking about it quite a bit before posting, I can simply say "We told you so."

[Smart2Nesmith43]

If it's a 'fire Joe' thread just call it that

Yeah it’s kind of stupid imo. Same coach and scheme as last year players just couldn’t get it done.

Same group last year and they were an absolute buzz saw all year, this year they were worn down and hurt and maybe a bit old in spots.

Raptors champions in 2019, lost in the second round in 2020
Lakers champions in 2020, lost in the first round in 2021
Bucks champions in 2021, lost in the second round in 2022
Warriors champions in 2022, lost in the second round in 2023
Nuggets champions in 2023, lost in the second round in 2024
Celtics champions in 2024, lost in the second round in 2025

Hmm, I sense a pattern and it's not Joe Mazzulla being the coach on all these teams.

[31to6]

If it's a 'fire Joe' thread just call it that

I'm on record here, over 2 years ago, along with playahater and probably some others, that Joe wasn't up to the task of Playoff Basketball, but that he was a race car driver with the best car in the field and would therefore by default accrue a lot of wins. This is simply looking at what just happened. And after thinking about it quite a bit before posting, I can simply say "We told you so."

call the thread that, then?

I thought JB had a knee that limited him the last two months, Jrue pulled a hamstring just before round 2, Sam sprained an ankle just before round 2, KP -- almost died? and JT blew up his Achilles.

But maybe it's a flaw you and playa identified two years ago and we already have multiple threads about

[redslastlaugh]

The Knicks series was deja vu of 2023 Miami series ending with JT getting injured when we were down but not yet dead. Except this years JT injury was so much worse.
Thibs (like Spoelstra) ran a system that shot more mid-range, more movement. We ran a system that shot more 3's and sought favorable matchups to go one on one. It was pretty strong deja vu.
As the series went on Al Horford looked his age on the boards as well in both years.
And then we got blown out in the deciding game in a humiliating fashion.

To me the game we played in game one was one of the most disheartening games I've watched as a Celtics fan ever.
I was looking at nba.com stats and in the entire playoffs this year our wins were 36 3PTA, 23 AST, 12 TOV
In the entire playoffs our losses were 43 3PTA, 17 AST, 16 TOV

Last year over the course of the entire playoffs those same stats were 40 3PTA, 24 AST, 12 TOV

Compared to last year, we just played worse in this playoffs in every way. Jrue and Al were older. KP and JB were diminished health wise. And then Tatum went down. But the basic result compared to 2024 was more of the bad things and less of the good things. And we lost and it's worse than just losing because of how bad JT got injured.

Super depressing Knicks series really because Orlando series was fine.

[darrendaye]

If it's a 'fire Joe' thread just call it that

I'm on record here, over 2 years ago, along with playahater and probably some others, that Joe wasn't up to the task of Playoff Basketball, but that he was a race car driver with the best car in the field and would therefore by default accrue a lot of wins. This is simply looking at what just happened. And after thinking about it quite a bit before posting, I can simply say "We told you so."

IMO the pace in which the team's 2 stars like to play is such a contributing factor to what offense the team employs. So I have a difficult time laying total blame on the coach. Unless you believe the Jays would willingly accept less handle time/fewer touches.

I have criticisms of the offense, for sure. That there's little to no weakside cutting when they make low post entry passes irks me. I said in the game thread, the focus on 3 point shots I have zero problem with, the frequency that the 3pt shot is the first attack plan is my issue. And at least some of that is caused by Jays' prolonged "size up" started possessions.

I skimmed the thread before posting this, so I'll go back now and read your case. But shared here my overall sentiment on the topic.

[darrendaye]

Read you're OP and I stand by my offense criticism sentiments expressed earlier. I do strongly concur with this...

P.S. Although overall Zinger, Kornet and Horford were very successful all year and even in their limited minutes in the playoffs, having 3 finesse centers (Zinger, Kornet, Queta) and not a BANGER/REBOUNDER/SCREENER/CHARGE TAKER (Xavier Tillman is useless at this point and undersized to be a True Center) is a GM Team Construction shortcoming. The Team could have used a guy like Dan Gafford more than Zinger or Kornet in this series.

Queta theoretically should be removed from that grouping as, to me, he is a quasi-banger (pause) and is the only big that actually SNATCHES rebounds, but Robinson's athleticism would still overwhelm him. The shame of Robert Williams just never staying healthy. The Knicks have had good luck with Robinson doing so this postseason so far.

[The Corey's]

So we think Joe got worse not the players?

do you really want to take the position that the players weren't good enough?

They played exactly how their coach wanted them to.

Yeah they played like ***. So he wanted them to play well last year but like *** this year? I’m confused.

The rest of us aren't confused. You can't bomb your way through every game. It catches up to you.

[redslastlaugh]

Another thing like the Miami series is that we out-attempted them at the 3pt line.
In the series 3PTAs were Celtics: 277 and Knicks: 202
In the Miami 2023 series 3PTAs were Celtics: 267 and Heat: 205

And I think this is what Scal was referring to when he said the Celtics loss to these Knicks was fitting because we were cheating the game. This idea that basically if you are outshooting the other team in 3PTA you are by that winning or should be winning or deserve to win or that something fundamentally went wrong if you didn't win, this is an ideological belief not based in any actual reality of basketball.

The concept that "we shot 277 3's and they shot 202 3's" and that therefore we should have won. This misunderstanding of winning basketball is just like a way of cheating the game of basketball, and this is the same thing really that we saw in Miami 2023.

Read on Twitter

That's how interpret what Scal was saying here.

[165bows]

do you really want to take the position that the players weren't good enough?

They played exactly how their coach wanted them to.

Yeah they played like ***. So he wanted them to play well last year but like *** this year? I’m confused.

The rest of us aren't confused. You can't bomb your way through every game. It catches up to you.

Ok so the seven three elite post threat they used last year couldn’t score on the leagues smallest guys

I’m not saying you are def wrong but these aren’t convincing arguments other than muh echo chamber

[celtxman]

Knicks retrospective? If KP was reasonably healthy the Celtics win the series. Unless you think they would have a far lesser lead WITH Porzingis then we'll assume they had a 20 point lead. The Knicks had no pick and roll answers for KP. So two late 20 point leads that end in losses in Game 1 and 2 end in say 5 point wins because they toss it to KP and he gets hoops or is fouled. Celtics win a blowout in Game 3, Knicks win Game 4, Celtics close in Game 5. Is that really hard to imagine.
The decision on the future of KP is another question, but health clearly was a big factor