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KG's rebounding is way down from the past eight seasons, even if you factor in that he is playing less minutes.

Can one of the number crunchers who study these things explain to me why this is no big deal. Until I get reassurance, I think those two or three fewer possessions per game are a real problem.

This is part of a bigger problem. KG's rebounding is way down and Ray Allen is having his worst season in a decade. I love these guys but this is not what we bargained for.

Maybe one of our numbers experts can reassure me about Ray, too.

My gosh, you guys have the best record in the NBA. I wouldn't be too worried. KG obviously isn't rebounding as much but you got so much talent he doesn't have too.

I am in need of reasurance too, Garnett has been pretty poor on the board.

The guy averaged 10 defensive rebounds per game on one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA last year.

Now he's on the best and he can't even average 10 in a game. he's only playing 3 mpg less.

As for Ray, Ray's an injury guy so I'm not as concerned because that's going to happen. He's not Pierce or KG who are ironmen, he's one of the best volume shooters ever, so when the volume is gone sometimes he's not going to make it up.

But as for KG he's perfectly healthy and playing less minutes yet he has been boxed out on the defensive side and is not grabing rebounds. He's taken less of a load offensively too so I don't understand why he's rebounding has fallen off.

Rondo and Pierce are exceptional rebounders for their position so I think this takes some rebounds away from Garnett. I don't remember there being any great rebounders on his previous teams. The Celtics play a down-tempo game so there are fewer rebounds to be had; they allow fewer shots per game than most other teams.

He's 23rd in the league in Rebound-rate at 16.9 and only four guys above him play more minutes.

He's shooting more efficiently than he ever has in his career for what it's worth. He's dishing out more assists. He's been arguably the best player in the NBA with really only Chris Paul in the conversation with him.

There is really nothing to complain about unless you're obnoxious and just like to complain after losses or something.

Bleeding Green wrote: I don't remember there being any great rebounders on his previous teams.

Mark Blount?

As for Ray Allen, what do you want? He's doing everything he always has, he's just taking fewer shots because he plays on a team with Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett. He's shooting just as well as he always has.

This isn't what we bargained for? LOL.

Watch when a shot goes up, KG will seal and cover an entire side of the basket... anything that comes his way he brings down.

In Minny he used to patrol the entire paint, he would jump from side to side, arms outstretched because he had the likes of Wally Z at SF, Mark Blount at C etc.
Pierce, Perkins, Baby, Posey etc are all great rebounders and allow KG to focus on his all around game, as opposed to chasing down every board in fear of giving up an offensive one.

Maybe...

KG has been helping out on the perimeter a lot, and therefore plays away from the basket on some stretches.

Also, because of the Celtics defense, teams tend to shoot perimeter jumpers resulting in long rebounds that KG cannot reach anymore.

Just maybe.

The Cs are a very average rebounding team so far -- strong defensively but weak offensively.

The defensive and offensive rebounding percentages are .751 and .252 respectively, per ESPN. Those sum to 1.03, obviously a very average figure. I'd guess .751 is low in the top 10 and .252 is high in the bottom 10, but the figures weren't sortable and I didn't check exactly.

Assume that KG plays with the other 4 starters, on average, 7.5 minutes or so to begin each half. So we are talking roughly 40% of his minutes, at minimum, are shared with the starters.

Player - Defensive Rebound %

Rondo - 11.2
R. Allen - 8.5
Pierce - 14.5
Garnett - 25.2
Perkins - 18.3

Then you have Posey (19.5) and Davis (12.7) who are often teamed with Garnett in the frontcourt. And the often overlooked House (12.0) plays with Garnett, at times, too. He has not been a slouch on the defensive glass, either.

On the offensive end, any drop in rebounding is due to game plan, imo. Often the Celtics leave only one offensive rebounder under the hoop and send the other four players back on defense to shutdown the opposition's transition game.

To answer your general question, Elrod:

1. Garnett is playing on a top-5 defensive rebounding team. Sure, his personal defensive rebound percentage is down 5.2% from last season but he is also playing with better overall rebounders at that end of the floor.

2. The Celtics are no longer employing the same tactics on the defensive glass as they were last season and earlier this season. His defensive rebounding percentage was off the charts at the beginning of the year because the likes of Perkins and Scalabrine were attempting to occupy offensive rebounders and let Garnett 'go get it'. Perkins and, now, Davis are now actively rebounding on the defensive glass instead of simply boxing out. BTW, the team, as a whole, was worse off for that tactic-- at least as measured by rebounding percentage.

3. Offensively, his rebounding is down as part of the game plan. Even so, he is rebounding at about the same levels, offensively, as he was last year in Minnesota (~7.5%) at that end of the floor.

I say there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

Fencer reregistered wrote:The Cs are a very average rebounding team so far -- strong defensively but weak offensively.

The defensive and offensive rebounding percentages are .751 and .252 respectively, per ESPN. Those sum to 1.03, obviously a very average figure. I'd guess .751 is low in the top 10 and .252 is high in the bottom 10, but the figures weren't sortable and I didn't check exactly.

Linky Goodness

Sortable by each of the four factors.

Sometimes you guys are just amazing, everytime we lost theres a lot of negative stuffs i read in this board.......relax fellow celtics fans just relax were still number 1 and will be fine....

You really can't bitch about anything KG does on the court. Even his swearing. The guy is the reason BOS is at this point right now.

The Celtics are shooting a much higher FG% than Garnett's Minnesota teams.

The Celtics also make a respectable amount of 3's, and only have 75 FG attempts per game, with 15 turnovers thrown in.

Rondo, Pierce and Ray Allen are all good rebounders for their position, as is Tony Allen and Leon Powe.

Factor in the schemes being used.

Garnett is used in the high post on offense to clear out underneath so the limited skilled players like Perkins, Davis, Powe and Pollard are isolated and get left unguarded whenever Rondo, Tony Allen, Ray Allen or Paul Pierce drives.

They also run their centers on screens and rolls, with Garnett a high post jump shooter/passer, to open things up inside.

Garnett is fine.

It's the rest of the team (Perk, Davis and Pollard's absence (he's bigger than 6' 7.5" Davis).

The real problem is the lack of athleticism in the backup up power forwards (Scal, Davis, Powe); and their lack of height (Scal has height, but no strength, hops, athleticism or shot this season), and lack of hops. They are also filling in a bit at center, with the larger Scot Pollard out with ankle injuries.

And 6' 6" Leon Powe has been great on the boards, in his limited minutes, but their are some matchups he just can't cover (he's not as good on the perimeter as Posey, who missed yesterday's game - the Celtics needed Posey's perimeter D more than his scoring).

So, the Celtics void is the lack of quality rebounding out of Perk, Davis and Scal. They get their numbers against second teams, and in a blue moon against starters. But the lack of dependable production out of the center and backup power forward positions will be the Celtics achilles heel come the playoffs. In the meantime, the box score watchers who don't actually watch how and what type of opportunities (or lack of) the Celtics get out of anyone except Garnett will continue to give victory cigars to Perk, Davis and Powe. Season wide, they (center and backup power forward) are by far the biggest concern on the Celtics when they have to face the elite teams on a nightly basis in the playoffs.

And Ray Allen is also playing similar to his career - he just gets 6.6 less shots per game with the Celtics, and 1.8 less free throws. The net result, factoring in his % of 3 point shots, is a decrease to his scoring average of 7 points per game.

bruno sundov wrote:You really can't bitch about anything KG does on the court. Even his swearing. The guy is the reason BOS is at this point right now.

the anti-scientific statement of a true believer. you can't question my fetish object! (whether its religion, ideology or commodity like a pro basketball player). i don't think there is anything wrong with criticizing anything. people come to learn and understand things, through criticism/questioning and the conversations that follow.

KG's rebounding has been strangely lackluster of late and I don't think talking about that constitutes "bitching."

Also, KG is not the reason Boston is where it is. They are a team. i think you can pretty credibly make the argument that Pierce is more important to Celtics than KG but that is a different topic for a different thread.

Maybe I just exepected more dominance from KG rebounding wise. He was the best rebounder in the NBA for the past 4 years. Now he's just a great rebounder among a bunch of good rebounders rather then the best.

Ray Allen continues to shoot a carrer low in fg%, so he's more dissapointing for sure.

At least we still have Pierce putting up respectable stuff in all the areas we hoped he would maintain.

elrod enchilada wrote:. I love these guys but this is not what we bargained for.

elrod enchilada wrote:KG's rebounding is way down from the past eight seasons, even if you factor in that he is playing less minutes.

Can one of the number crunchers who study these things explain to me why this is no big deal. Until I get reassurance, I think those two or three fewer possessions per game are a real problem.

This is part of a bigger problem. KG's rebounding is way down and Ray Allen is having his worst season in a decade. I love these guys but this is not what we bargained for.

Maybe one of our numbers experts can reassure me about Ray, too.

So a 33-7 record does give you any reassurance? Maybe you'd like us to undo the KG trade then. Since you're so harped on stats, Al Jefferson must be having a better season than KG, since he's averaging more points and rebounds.

Thanks, Pogue, and others. I wanted this to be a serious thread, not a rant thread. As for those who say we should just shut up and enjoy the team, they miss my point. We all love the team -- KG is extraordinary --and revel in its successes. With these trades Danny is committed to winning a title this year. The issues I am raising are concerns that could see us knocked off in the playoffs before that goal is reached. I am willing to bet Danny and Doc (and KG and Ray) are wondering about the exact same thing. My deepest concern is that these guys, especially Ray, may be starting the downward arc of their careers.

Sad truth: if we do not win 17 this year, the glow we have gotten so far from the season is going to fade. (And if we never win a title with this unit or even get to the NBA finals, years from now as Big Al and Brandon Roy and possibly Yi Jianlian are in the midst of stellar perennial all-star, possible Hall of Fame careers while our Big Three is retired, and the Cs return to suckhood, this year's team may look like Fool's Gold.) We may well win 17 -- I know all teams have hills and valleys over 82 games and we have had mostly Alpine peaks --but the way the team has played the last two or three weeks this team will be pressed to even get to the eastern conference finals.

33-7!