From an outsider's opinion

BRIGGS · Post #1 » by **BRIGGS** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 3:12 am

While the Celtics are 35-8---I'm beginning to believe that with Al Jefferson and Ryan Gomes to go along with what you have instead of KG---while it might not have yielded this record--I don't know that the team might not have been as good OR better towards the end of the year. Giving up Al is looking down right scary.

Post #2 » by **canman1971** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 3:19 am

Al's team is the complete reverse of the Celtics. That is scary. This team would not have been even close without KG. Didn't you see their record last year?

Post #3 » by **ParticleMan** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 3:19 am

yup. this is why the vast majority of C's fans didn't want to give up Al for KG at first. now they're happy because they didn't realize how good KG is, but they knew perfectly well how good Al is.

Post #4 » by **canman1971** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 3:22 am

The real difference is defense. KG is one of the best and Al isn't good. He very well might be someday, but right now, he is a strainer.

francishsu · Post #5 » by **francishsu** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 3:24 am

If you call trading Gomes and Big Al for KG scary, what do you call Isiah Thomas being both your coach and general maanger?

BigHands · Post #6 » by **BigHands** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 3:59 am

BRIGGS wrote:While the Celtics are 35-8---I'm beginning to believe that with Al Jefferson and Ryan Gomes to go along with what you have instead of KG---while it might not have yielded this record--I don't know that the team might not have been as good OR better towards the end of the year. Giving up Al is looking down right scary.

I am a big fan of Al and like Gomes too but......

It is the defense and KG's interior passing that is so important....Celts can't do without either of those.

KG's leadership too.

daveisceltics · Post #7 » by **daveisceltics** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 4:16 am

BRIGGS wrote:While the Celtics are 35-8---I'm beginning to believe that with Al Jefferson and Ryan Gomes to go along with what you have instead of KG---while it might not have yielded this record--I don't know that the team might not have been as good OR better towards the end of the year. Giving up Al is looking down right scary.

Al can't play defense and isn't close to the leader KG is.
He makes this team play so much harder with intensity we haven't seen since Bird.

threrf23 · Post #8 » by **threrf23** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 6:39 am

Al actually isn't a bad defender persay - even in his rookie season he at times showed good one-on-one ability, even shutting down JO in the playoffs - he's just not very good all around on D. In Minny he's forced out of position @ C. When the trade was announced, I was almost depressed, I thought we gave up way too much. Not only could we have kept Al, but we could have traded the other pieces for another piece to put alongside Al/PP/RA (btw, Gomes is not good alongside Al, he's defensively limited at the PF slot and Al gets overmatched often @ C). And obviously Al would have been unstoppable in the post with PP & Ray on the perimeter.

I eventually came around on it. KG, when on top of his game, is arguably the best player in the game if you factor what he brings to the table on both sides of the court as well as his versatility. Studies would indicate we needed a player like that to be a contender. Plus Posey/House, potential future signings, possibly Tom Thibodeau...might not be on our squad if we don't land KG. The smaller roster made it easier for Doc to set rotations. Our record speaks for itself, as does Minny's (though they may be tanking on some level) and when our big 3 begin to come off the books, we have caproom.

Can't say I like watching Al and following him from afar, though.

On a related note, anyone catch this after the Minny game...

When Kevin Garnett emphatically reminded Jefferson of his all-star selections - "11 years! 11 years!" - Jefferson replied with something that Garnett couldn't top.

"I told him we both have one thing in common - no championships," Jefferson said. "He didn't like that too much."

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_8095900

Al's as headstrong as anyone in the league. I disagree that he couldn't match KG's leadership ability, although KG is more intense and obviously more seasoned, and obviously demands more respect at the moment. At least people are starting to come around and realize that KG wasn't a handout from Kevin McHale.

Lakers05 · Post #9 » by **Lakers05** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 7:03 am

It's not even close. KG's defense is not just what he does against his own man, but also what he does for his teammates. Both Allen and Pierce's OPP PER have dropped dramatically.

When I watch KG, I marvel at how much ground he covers at times(if your range is 17 feet and in, you basically have no chance of getting off a good shot). He exemplifies the definition of blocks don't mean defense.

Post #10 » by **Bleeding Green** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 7:21 am

Also, Garnett is a far more complete offensive player.

Celtics win like 48-52 games this year without getting Garnett. They could win 65-68 with him. Al Jefferson is a very nice player, but let's get real.

P2 · Post #11 » by P2 » Sat Feb 2, 2008 8:23 am

We have 36 wins, original poster, not 35.

EdSkae · Post #12 » by **EdSkae** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 11:09 am

BRIGGS wrote:While the Celtics are 35-8---I'm beginning to believe that with Al Jefferson and Ryan Gomes to go along with what you have instead of KG---while it might not have yielded this record--I don't know that the team might not have been as good OR better towards the end of the year. Giving up Al is looking down right scary.

Al Jefferson is a great one dimensional low post scorer.
Kevin Garnett is the most versatile player in the NBA. He is the only player in the league who is capable of playing every position at either end of the floor.

bru87tr · Post #13 » by **bru87tr** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 1:58 pm

although Al is great, he cant play the defense KG can. sorry, but no way we have even close to this record with Al.

and I love Big Al!!!!

Post #14 » by **ParticleMan** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 3:18 pm

threrf23 wrote:Al actually isn't a bad defender persay - even in his rookie season he at times showed good one-on-one ability, even shutting down JO in the playoffs - he's just not very good all around on D. In Minny he's forced out of position @ C. When the trade was announced, I was almost depressed, I thought we gave up way too much. Not only could we have kept Al, but we could have traded the other pieces for another piece to put alongside Al/PP/RA (btw, Gomes is not good alongside Al, he's defensively limited at the PF slot and Al gets overmatched often @ C). And obviously Al would have been unstoppable in the post with PP & Ray on the perimeter.

I fail to see how we get KG without giving up Al. Without Al, there are several teams whose packages are way better than ours. For example the Lakers were willing to give up Bynum for KG. That immediately makes it way better than anything we could have offered without Al.

I agree Al is somewhat maligned on D, he isn't horrible like Blonut or something. But KG is simply on a completely different level. Not only is he great on D, he makes everyone else better on D. He is to defense what Larry Bird is to offense.

threrf23 · Post #15 » by **threrf23** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 11:08 pm

ParticleMan wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I fail to see how we get KG without giving up Al. Without Al, there are several teams whose packages are way better than ours.

I wasn't inferring we could get KG without Al, but we could've kept Al and acquired someone else (not KG) using the other pieces.

EdSkae · Post #16 » by **EdSkae** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 11:28 pm

threrf23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I wasn't inferring we could get KG without Al, but we could've kept Al and acquired someone else (not KG) using the other pieces.

Make no mistake about it of the guys that were available. KG was the only player Al Jefferson was going to be included in a deal for.

DelMonte West · Post #17 » by **DelMonte West** » Sat Feb 2, 2008 11:54 pm

threrf23 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I wasn't inferring we could get KG without Al, but we could've kept Al and acquired someone else (not KG) using the other pieces.

Considering we'd already given up our 5th pick and excluding Al, we had very little to offer in terms of getting back a high-level player. I'd suppose the best talent available (using the residuals of the KG deal) would have been someone like Al Harrington, and if that were the case it really wouldn't have done much for us IMO.

It's easy to get buyer's remorse, but I just can't look back on it that way when I see how far we've come in so short a time. I loved Al and hated to see him go at first, but in retrospect he may be one of the hardest young players to build around in the league. His game is best implemented in a half-court offense, which few young teams are optimal for.

sam_I_am · Post #18 » by **sam_I_am** » Sun Feb 3, 2008 2:13 am

ParticleMan wrote:yup. this is why the vast majority of C's fans didn't want to give up Al for KG at first. now they're happy because they didn't realize how good KG is, but they knew perfectly well how good Al is.

Actually, Celtics fans didn't realize how empty Al's stats were. Now it is clear that 21/12 from Al can't keep a team from being worst in the league. Meanwhile 19/10 from KG has a team in the running for 70 wins.

Stats don't tell the story. Wins and Losses don't always tell the whole story but a great player should win at least 35 games in a season even without any help.

Post #19 » by **ParticleMan** » Sun Feb 3, 2008 2:57 am

I don't think Paul Pierce in place of Al in Minny wins any more games than they have. Al has been fantastic. You're right stats don't tell the whole story but neither do W-L, when you have such a crappy team.

PPAW4Life · Post #20 » by **PPAW4Life** » Sun Feb 3, 2008 7:38 am

You replace some of the Timberwolves young players with Posey, Eddie House, and Ray Allen that team with a healthy Foye could do some serious damage in the West.

Put The Truth on that team and some of those <5 point losses turn into wins and they'd be a .500 team out West.

This is a team with so much youth that has already beaten some top teams in the league and have been competitive in most games....just lack the superstar go-to player to close out games.