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Shaq to Phoenix - Was it a good deal for the Suns?
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:52 am
by LarryBrdismyDad
I am starting this thread because I wanted to get people's opinion on whether they thought this was a good trade or not. I think it was a deal that filled a need for Phoenix and could propel them to a championship. The way their team was constructed prior to this trade had one major flaw that was the reason they could never get over the hump. Phoenix needed an interior presence because Amare simply can't guard Western Conference top quality big men such as Jefferson, Duncan, Boozer, Yao, West, Gasol, and Bynum.
While Shaq hasn't been playing good defense this season he is still 7-1 350 and has a lot of weight to throw around. He will also be motivated now that he is on a good team and he will probably now show the dedication and commitment it takes to play defense because he knows it will be for a worthwhile cause. If Shaq is healthy, and thats a big if, then this will atleast be a solid deal. Shaq can still provide some interior defense, rebounding, and post scoring, which are all areas that the Suns needed to improve on. Boris Diaw will also now get more minutes and he can replace some of the scoring and rebounding that Marion provided.
I think Shawn Marion is a good player but he was a player I feel whose weaknesses were always exposed in the playoffs against good defensive teams like the Spurs. If you keep Marion off the boards and don't let him get out on the fastbreak and get easy buckets, then he becomes almost useless on offense. He is an alright shooter even though he has a weird shooting motion but he hasn't shown the ability to create off the dribble when guarded closely. The one thing the Suns will miss from him is his defense on perimeter big men such as Nowitzki and on point guards.
I still think the Suns should have done this deal with the Pacers for Jermaine O'Neal instead of Shaq but this was a decent deal in my opinion.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:57 am
by GonzoLays
Yes, and here is why it was a good trade. (Remember, you are reading this here first).
Shaq, Steve Nash, and Raja Bell all become free agents 2 and 1/2 years from now removing over 40 million in contracts from Phoenix's books. The rational is that they take their shot now while Nash is good, and if it doesn't work out, they build around Amare and have 30-40 million open to restock and rebuild.
Remember, this is why I'm the Great GonzoLays and no one else is.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:04 am
by GoGoCeltics
Phoenix has failed to win a championship with a very similar roster the past couple years, so they are switching it up. I didn't like it for them at first, but I like it more and more as I have thought about it. They can still run the fast break (picture Shaq getting the rebound and kicking it out to start it all), but they also have Shaq to fall back on if they are in the half-court. Shaq is a great passer and will fit in with Phoenix, especially with Amare next to him. Then he is also a big body to put on the Duncans and Yaos of the west; something Marion could not do.
They are putting it all on the line with more of a now-or-never approach, and that's what they have to do in the west this year in the NBA.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:41 am
by grantlongforpresident
awful trade for the suns. marion is one of the most complete players in the game and was a perfect fit for the suns.
don't give me that garbage about they didn't win... that doesn't mean that they didn't have a shot. thats what you ask for, a shot. they could have easily won it all if it weren't for horry's cheap shot.
you have the best record in the west and you mix it up? awful trade.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:14 am
by ParticleMan
Good trade.
They weren't going to get farther than a WC final appearance with that squad. That was pretty clear.
Hell hath no fury like a motivated Shaq. The guy can still play at a high enough level, and he's exactly what the Suns need. Like KG, he brings an attitude to a team, and it's something the Suns needed.
I'm more worried about the Suns coming out of the WC to face us than the Lakers or Spurs at this point.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:00 am
by Al n' Perk No Layups!
Al n' Perk No Layups! wrote:grantlongforpresident wrote:Why the heck would PHX trade Marion for Shaq. Makes no sense and therefore would never happen. ESPN wants ratings.
1) A lot more places than ESPN are reporting it.
2) Reasons:
Obviously they aren't getting anywhere with the current team and Marion is apparently a bit of a malcontent. He demanded a trade in the offseason and he may opt out at the end of the year. He's also their highest paid player. They can also dump Banks' awful deal.
Benefits of trading for Shaq:
He's a great passer.
He's massive.
When healthy and motivated he can be dominant.
He gives the Suns big time size up front.
Even at 30% he can still rebound and score in the post.
He can be a great defender.
The Suns don't have to change styles for him, you don't see a five man break a lot.
He is a good guy.
He brings toughness.
Shaq is the guy that could get the Suns past the Spurs, Jazz, Hornets and Lakers. I think trading for Shaq would improve their title chances, and as a Celts fan I'm far more worried about facing a Suns team with Shaq than a Suns team with Marion considering our lack of size.
Al n' Perk No Layups! wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
I'd much rather face the Lakers than the Suns with Shaq. He alone is bigger than our entire front line. They would kill us down low.
If this deal doesn't fall through, we should sign Dale Davis to give us the necessary size to face the Suns.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:10 am
by Mahoney_jr
It was a good trade. As a side effect you will see an increase in value of Boris Diaw, who needs to be traded when Nash and Shaq retire.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:51 pm
by jfs1000d
Not sure shaq has anything left in the tank. Stil, I find the matrix incredibly overrated anyhow. Marion is a complementary player who compiles great stats. Marion isn't a difference maker.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:21 pm
by BakersDozen
Im still up in the air on this... I still think the Suns had a great shot of getting to the finals without this deal.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:57 pm
by andyhop
grantlongforpresident wrote:awful trade for the suns. marion is one of the most complete players in the game and was a perfect fit for the suns.
don't give me that garbage about they didn't win... that doesn't mean that they didn't have a shot. thats what you ask for, a shot. they could have easily won it all if it weren't for horry's cheap shot.
you have the best record in the west and you mix it up? awful trade.
Their record is entirely dependent on them beating up Eastern Conference teams.They are 15-13 against Western teams and 4-9 against top 8 Western teams.With that record they weren't going anywhere in the playoffs.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:29 pm
by wetsthebed
It was the same Suns team that couldn't get over the hump in the past. A healthy Shaq brings the toughness inside that they need.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:40 pm
by tombattor
It's a great trade for the Suns. Maybe it won't work out, but if it does, they are getting to the finals. Without the trade, they'd be lucky to get to the conference finals. Nash is getting old, so he doesn't have another 10 years. Therefore the Suns had to make a move that can potentially put them over the top. It was clear as day that Marion is not someone that's going to be the difference against teams like the Lakers or the Spurs in the playoffs. Having Shaq, even at his age, opens up everything for the rest of the team. Shawn Marion is one of those guys that needs someone to open things up for him. That's the difference.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:45 pm
by tombattor
grantlongforpresident wrote:awful trade for the suns. marion is one of the most complete players in the game and was a perfect fit for the suns.
don't give me that garbage about they didn't win... that doesn't mean that they didn't have a shot. thats what you ask for, a shot. they could have easily won it all if it weren't for horry's cheap shot.
you have the best record in the west and you mix it up? awful trade.
So where did their best record in the league in the regular season get them? Obviously Shawn Marion was not getting it done in the playoffs. No matter what they do in the regular season, if you want to win in the playoffs, you have to play inside out. Shaq impacts the entire game. Marion does not. He's a good #3 option on a great team, but Shaq is the MAIN MAN on any team. Even Now. That's how impactful he is.
But it's not a move without risk. Shaq's age can really limit his effectiveness, but the Suns were not going to get past all those Western teams with great post presences anyways. And they have just as much chance against Spurs with Marion as without. He can't impact the outcome of a playoff series. It doesn't mean he's a bad player, but the playoffs is not for not-bad players.
They don't want to keep finishing the regular season with one of the best record without getting to the finals. No move almost guarantees that. Shaq move gives them a chance to be dominant. Marion has no chance of that.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:46 pm
by CanSee17
I think that the Suns did a good job hiding the chemistry problems that prevented the team from ever really gelling.
Shaq will obviously add size to the Suns lineup but I think that he will step up and be the vocal leader of a team that needs leadership.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:23 pm
by tombattor
CanSee17 wrote:I think that the Suns did a good job hiding the chemistry problems that prevented the team from ever really gelling.
Shaq will obviously add size to the Suns lineup but I think that he will step up and be the vocal leader of a team that needs leadership.
Exactly. Aside from the on-court stuff, Shaq's leadership is also a very important factor for a team with championship aspirations.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:46 pm
by Luxurytaxlotterybust
Considering if they had worked a little harder they could have gotten a better deal for Marion I say a bad trade.
Remember that Phoenix has given away their chance to build a long term contender. Thomas for 2 1st round picks, Rondo for cash and Lou Deng for cash.
This trade is trying for the 1 shot they might have to make up for several stupid Owner based moves that continue to haunt this franchise.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:29 pm
by phx#7
GonzoLays wrote:Yes, and here is why it was a good trade. (Remember, you are reading this here first).
Shaq, Steve Nash, and Raja Bell all become free agents 2 and 1/2 years from now removing over 40 million in contracts from Phoenix's books. The rational is that they take their shot now while Nash is good, and if it doesn't work out, they build around Amare and have 30-40 million open to restock and rebuild.
Remember, this is why I'm the Great GonzoLays and no one else is.
This is why I'm in favor of the deal. It may not get the Suns a ring, but atleast it gives them a chance which is something they didn't really have since trading KT in the offseason.
Now they have most of their big contracts coming off the same year(again something keeping Marion would not allow) and it just so happens to be the year Bosh, LeBron and Wade will all opt out of their deals. Even though there is almost no chance at getting one of them the Suns will still have a ton of money and they've never had a problem convincing FA to play here.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:43 pm
by Craig McDermott
tombattor wrote:It was clear as day that Marion is not someone that's going to be the difference against teams like the Lakers or the Spurs in the playoffs.
I don't know about the Spurs, but Marion was one of the main reasons the Lakers couldn't match up w/ Phx over the last 2 seasons. They had 2 athletic bigs to run wings, Marion could extend to the arc where LA couldn't recover because they had to rotate to Nash, Diaw, and Bell (and Tim Thomas) who spotted up to free the paint. This changes Phx's dynamics.
While Bynum is bound to have difficulties backing Shaq in and while I foresee ref love against the youngster, Phx WILL play halfcourt much more often by default, making man:man defense possible.
Even if Bynum's production is reduced by Shaq's presence, now that Bynum is a threat to alter shots, Nash has already shown difficulty penetrating to the dots for draws and kicks - he was forced into a scoring role in their 2 losses against LA as a result. Aside from this, they're going to have to play Hill on Odom, which is a mismatch. I foresee them relegating Hill to the bench in favor of Diaw by the 3rd game, tops.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:07 pm
by tombattor
Craig McDermott wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
I don't know about the Spurs, but Marion was one of the main reasons the Lakers couldn't match up w/ Phx over the last 2 seasons. They had 2 athletic bigs to run wings, Marion could extend to the arc where LA couldn't recover because they had to rotate to Nash, Diaw, and Bell (and Tim Thomas) who spotted up to free the paint. This changes Phx's dynamics.
While Bynum is bound to have difficulties backing Shaq in and while I foresee ref love against the youngster, Phx WILL play halfcourt much more often by default, making man:man defense possible.
Even if Bynum's production is reduced by Shaq's presence, now that Bynum is a threat to alter shots, Nash has already shown difficulty penetrating to the dots for draws and kicks - he was forced into a scoring role in their 2 losses against LA as a result. Aside from this, they're going to have to play Hill on Odom, which is a mismatch. I foresee them relegating Hill to the bench in favor of Diaw by the 3rd game, tops.
The big difference is this. Marion makes his shots when Nash creates for him just like Bell, Diaw or whoever, but Shaq CREATES shots, or make the existing shots better shots for everyone, just by being out there. With Shaq, there will be a ton of easy layups, open 3's, etc. And with Nash running the offense, just imagine how much easier it'll be for everyone.
Like I said, this move has its risks, since Marion was a pretty good player and Shaq is getting old. However, Marion was not going to be able to help the Suns get by the top teams in the West, especially now that the Lakers got a big time low-post scorer in Gasol. In the playoffs, the offense has to come from inside-out and Marion doesn't command enough attention inside to make the game easy for everyone else the way Shaq can.
Think about it. What can Marion do that can't be made up by the leftover Suns players? Not much. Do they really need another big man who stands outside and take open shots Nash creates for them? Not at all.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:25 pm
by humblebum
I think it's as simple as this: Shaq adds a new element to the mix.
As tombattor says, the other players on the Suns can all replace what Marion brought to the table, but Shaq brings a different dimension to the game, a dimension that the Suns have sorely lacked in the past.
That dimension is the ability to play slow-down, inside-out, half-court, possession by possession basketball come playoff time. Amare and Marion was an exciting, yet less-than-intimidating frontcourt. You could pound it inside all day and the Suns had no response to that. Now they have the Diesel!
Despite his age and his deteriorating game, Shaq allows the Suns to slide Amare to his more natural position, Power Forward. Shaq can now guard the best post option for the opposition which allows Amare to roam and block shots. This will reinvigorate Amare on the defensive end.
Finally, the Suns do not have to solely move towards a halfcourt game. You only need 2-4 players to run the break effectively and Amare, Hill, Barbosa and Bell will all suffice as fastbreak finishers with Steve Nash as the trigger man. The Suns can also revert back to small ball by simply moving Diaw to the PF spot.
In the end I agree with Gonzo. This is a good deal on two fronts: they get a chance to win a title in the next two seasons and after that they have the opportunity to rebuild. Perfect scenario IMO whereas with Marion they were more Pretender than Contender.