OT: Tracy McGrady? Loser?

Post #1 » by **tlee324** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:02 am

I have to wonder what people think of this winning streak by Houston in regards to the reputation McGrady has been gaining as someone who can't win.

Does his playoff success alone, or lack thereof, define him as a winner or loser? Does this winning streak at all have any say to his ability to win?

I've often thought that the best players on their teams got too much credit or too much blame for the direction their teams went in the win column. Every single player, whether they're an all-star or a bench player, needs to be in the right situation to have TEAM success. I'd venture to say that any player individually good enough to be an all-star has the ability to win, but just aren't in the right situations as a team to do it.

I feel Pierce was wrongly called a loser for some of the seasons Boston had to endure, and McGrady has been in that boat pretty much his whole career. Playing with potentially great teammates (Ming, Grant Hill) only to have them ripped out of the lineup for various reasons (injuries, primarily) really takes away from his chances for team success, and has been labeled "loser" by many because of it.

But what about now? Does a streak like this help exonerate that label, or does it stick no matter what until playoff success occurs?

To me, it looks like McGrady has been playing very well like he usually does, but now his team has been doing the right things around him to get the W's.

daveisceltics · Post #2 » by **daveisceltics** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:05 am

Come playoffs we will see how much of a winner he is when they lose in the first round..
You heard it first folks.

freakon0mics · Post #3 » by **freakon0mics** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:32 am

I feel bad for him. He carried his teams. The teams he was on lacked talent and depth and yet he came out to be the loser. Its good that he's finally doing well and so is his team. He's on a team with a good coach and good supporting cast. I wouldn't label him a loser if he doesn't make it past the 1st round again. That conference is so deep. Its all about matchups in the playoffs out west.

Post #4 » by **Bleeding Green** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:50 am

I don't associate 'loser' or 'winner' with individual players in a team sport.

McGrady isn't really playing any better now than at any point of the season. The rest of the team is just shooting the ball like crazy and they have the second-best defense after Boston. Crazy, unsustainably good shooting + really good defense = wins, wins, wins, wins, wins ... wins.

Before streak: 47.2 eFG%
Last 19 games: 53.8 eFG%

This is like going from 26th in the league to 2nd in the league. All the outside shooters on that team are shooting well above their career norms during this streak, except McGrady who is shooting marginally better. I can't imagine it will continue. Even so, with that good of a defense they should still be one of the favorites out West after the Lakers. You can make a case for any of the Spurs, Jazz, Hornets or Rockets as the second-best team in the West right now.

If their shooting gets hot like this during the playoffs there isn't a team in the universe that will be able to stop them. Even if the offense goes a little cold that defense is good enough that they still have he potential to beat anyone in a 7 game series.

It could be interesting to see how the potential return of Yao would disrupt things if the Rockets go deep and he's able to make a return. Is that even a possibility--Yao's return for the NBA Finals?

Wow, that's a little offtopic.

thefoulness · Post #5 » by **thefoulness** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:12 am

The answer is Yes, you are judged by what you do in the playoffs.

It's a fantastic winning streak, but it does not mean McGrady is suddenly a winner.

And yes, I agree with the other poster who said despite the streak, Rockets will lose again in the 1st Round of the playoffs.

McGrady is talented but soft, both physically and mentally.

alwayslovetheceltics · Post #6 » by **alwayslovetheceltics** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:37 am

Badmutha,

T-Mac has been playing unbelievable ball- and he is the primary reason for that streak.

did you watch last season's playoff series vs Utah? T-Mac was spectactular, just like in the 7 game series vs Dallas a couple years back.

Yao on the other hand cost Houston victories with his defense- he was simply to slow to be effective against Utah. My question to you is, after watching that series, why does everyone talk about T-Mac when Yao was the cause?

BG- you have to watch some of their games. To say T-Mac hasn't elevated his level of play is absurd. He is playing some unbelievable defense and on offense, he has shouldered a lot of the load of setting his guys up for open looks.

Post #7 » by **Bleeding Green** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:48 am

That's what he always does. Now they're just hitting the shots at a very high rate.

T-Mac is awesome. I love his game. I just don't see him playing any better right now than he was before this streak of crazy shooting.

That 02-03 season of his in Orland was something else. Just a total garbage supporting cast. He was the entire offense and still no one could stop him. How they won 42 games is beyond me. Not quite at the Kobe in '05 or MJ in '86 or Iverson in his last full season in Philly type stuff but as close as you can get to just straight carrying an entire team's offense on your back.

Tricky Ricky · Post #8 » by **Tricky Ricky** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:05 pm

daveisceltics wrote:Come playoffs we will see how much of a winner he is when they lose in the first round..
You heard it first folks.

Well without Yao that really isnt going out on a limb, I wouldnt be suprised to see them be swept in the first round. But onto "playoff success" whatever anyone says about him has to be said about KG also who other than the one trip to the western conference finals has done nothing in the playoffs, however for years Ive been saying put a team around KG and hed be just as good as Duncan and I think this year we will see that.

CelticsWhat! · Post #9 » by **CelticsWhat!** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:48 pm

McGrady has been given an unfair reputation. He's never been on a team that was heavily favored in the playoffs, if favored at all. His career averages in the playoffs are 29-7-6. Granted, he did have that one bonehead move when he talked about advancing to the 2nd round when the team was up 3-1, and then they proceeded to lose 3 in a row. But who do you think was a main part of getting the team to 3-1 in the first place?

It's all about who you have around you. The Rockets had a good team, but the lost in 7 games to the Utah Jazz, a team that went to the WCF. Is that something to be ashamed of?

It's all about situations. KG only made it out of the first round once, and I don't think the words "loser" or "soft" would EVER be associated with him.

True, T-Mac is very injury-prone, which doesn't help his situation. But that's also something that's out of his control.

If you put T-Mac, Paul Pierce or any other top 2-3's in the league with Shaq and the rest of the Lakers of the early 2000's instead of Kobe, you probably get about the same amount of titles and the word "loser" would never be uttered for those players. But they didn't have Shaq. They had Tony Battie...and Mark Blount...and Andrew DeClerq...Pat Garrity...you get the point.

Post #10 » by **UGA Hayes** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:49 pm

I agree its pretty dumb. The truth is even though they only played one series Tracy McGrady arguably played the best bball in the playoffs of any player last year against Utah and they lost b/c his teammate outside of Yao combined couldn't score double digits in a game.

Bigmiketruth · Post #11 » by **Bigmiketruth** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:26 pm

The winning only cancels out the losing streak in my book. That losing streak in ORL was definitely my biggest reason for not putting Mcgrady up there with other superstar guards, and I still believe if you're an ALL STAR you shouldve been able to will a win before it got to 19 straight. Even a fat, out of shape, molasses slow Pierce was able to will out a win in the first couple games back last season.

CelticsWhat! · Post #12 » by **CelticsWhat!** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:46 pm

Bigmiketruth wrote:The winning only cancels out the losing streak in my book. That losing streak in ORL was definitely my biggest reason for not putting Mcgrady up there with other superstar guards, and I still believe if you're an ALL STAR you shouldve been able to will a win before it got to 19 straight. Even a fat, out of shape, molasses slow Pierce was able to will out a win in the first couple games back last season.

I guess you must put Dwyane Wade in that same category after this season, right?

aboubata · Post #13 » by **aboubata** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:10 pm

daveisceltics wrote:Come playoffs we will see how much of a winner he is when they lose in the first round..
You heard it first folks.

I have to admit, I didn't see a single game in that streak, but I still don't think they will make the playoffs.

Post #14 » by **Bleeding Green** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:12 am

It's a near impossibility for them to miss the playoffs at this stage. The playoff teams are pretty much completely set at this point except for the 8 seed in the East and maybe the 8 seed in the West.

Boston, Detroit, Orlando, Cleveland, Toronto, Washington, and Philly are locks in the East. 8th is between Chicago, Atlanta, Jersey and Indy. No one else has much of a shot at all.

Out West, LA, San Antonio, Houston, Utah, New Orleans, Dallas, Phoenix and Golden State are near-locks and the only team that could sneak in is Denver who could overtake GS, but that's unlikely. The seeding could obviously change, but 8 of these 9 teams are in.

Bigmiketruth · Post #15 » by **Bigmiketruth** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:49 am

CelticsWhat! wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I guess you must put Dwyane Wade in that same category after this season, right?

Wade is hurt, has been the whole year. Tmac was fine that season.

Albanian Damien · Post #16 » by **Albanian Damien** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:58 am

Actually McGrady has really only had 1 series where he was responsible for losing. That was the famous 3-1 start and him saying "It's great to be in the 2nd round.". Other than that I feel stars players get way too much blame for when their team loses. With that said if Houston stays in 3rd I doubt that they lose in the 1st round.

icewill36 · Post #17 » by **icewill36** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:24 am

Bigmiketruth wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Wade is hurt, has been the whole year. Tmac was fine that season.

why do people keep saying this ? he had his surgery a long time ago and finished his rehab months ago. people need to stop giving wade a pass.

if t-mac is a loser, so is KG......

grantlongforpresident · Post #18 » by **grantlongforpresident** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:54 am

McGrady is a loser. He is a moody, selfish, diva.

This year the rockets are winning, and largely because of TMAC but he is still a loser. You can't change a career in 20 games. We'll see what he does in the playoffs. maybe he has changed his ways.. but i wouldn't be surprised to see them flame out in the 1st round - which will bring out his sulky, injury-prone, mentally-weak side.

Post #19 » by **tlee324** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:58 am

grantlongforpresident wrote:McGrady is a loser. He is a moody, selfish, diva.

This year the rockets are winning, and largely because of TMAC but he is still a loser. You can't change a career in 20 games. We'll see what he does in the playoffs. maybe he has changed his ways.. but i wouldn't be surprised to see them flame out in the 1st round - which will bring out his sulky, injury-prone, mentally-weak side.

I feel it's more than just 20 games. It's 20 straight wins. There's a big difference between the two, IMO.

I feel this 20 game streak has to somewhat take away from the stigma that he can't win. Unless you're ONLY counting what he does in the playoffs... ...then I'd venture to say that some people feel the regular season as a whole has no effect on whether a player can be labeled a "winner" or "loser", and the playoffs are the only thing to use as a measurement.

And if that's so, then I'd have to point out that if Houston were losing 20 straight games in the regular season, then tons of people would be piling on Tracy McGrady right now, calling him a loser....

aboubata · Post #20 » by **aboubata** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:26 pm

Bleeding Green wrote:It's a near impossibility for them to miss the playoffs at this stage. The playoff teams are pretty much completely set at this point except for the 8 seed in the East and maybe the 8 seed in the West.

Boston, Detroit, Orlando, Cleveland, Toronto, Washington, and Philly are locks in the East. 8th is between Chicago, Atlanta, Jersey and Indy. No one else has much of a shot at all.

Out West, LA, San Antonio, Houston, Utah, New Orleans, Dallas, Phoenix and Golden State are near-locks and the only team that could sneak in is Denver who could overtake GS, but that's unlikely. The seeding could obviously change, but 8 of these 9 teams are in.

yeah, but look at the schedule.
Houston has a tough week coming up and then another game with SA in march, plus couple games at the end of the season.
6 games ahead of Denver is nothing. Both Denver and Golden state have easier schedule then these guys.
LA, Boston, NOH, GSW and Pho next week, with 2 games on back to back, these would be the games that make them or brake them.