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I was thinking about the trade for KG and how it might compare with the trade that brought in Kevin McHale and Robert Parish. The McHale trade has to rank higher simply because it brought in two hall of famers. However, if we few KG/Allen as a single deal (offseason) it is probably a push as to which trade is greater. There were some doubts surrounding that Parish trade. He had a reputation of not hussling.

Just wondering how others think the Celtic 2007 offseason compares to great offseason of the past. I don't think for the sake of this arguement drafts should be included (so no Chicago drafting Jordan, The C's drafting Russell and Bird or San Antonio with Duncan).

The Celtics did not draft Russell, they traded for him. And it was the best trade in franchise history.

Russell trade was the best simply because it made the Celtics in the greatest franchise in history. The Celtics traded Ed Macauley (a great player, but he only played three more years in the NBA) for a rookie Russell.

The McHale+Parrish trade was better as well. Since that was really just one trade.

It's got to be the best single off-season is Celtics history, going from where we were to where we are now. Hell, it's probably the best off-season in NBA history, and I think the results are going to bear that out.

However, even if you combine the transactions, I think that McHale + Parish for Joe Barry Carroll is a better trade than KG + Allen + BBD for Al Jefferson, Jeff Green, Wally, Theo's expiring contract, Gomes, Telfair, Delonte, Gerald, 2 #1s, and a #2.

In the first transaction, we got two Hall of Famers early in their career for one mediocre guy. In the second, we got two aging-but-still-dominant Hall of Famers and a prospect for a lot of nice pieces. We paid close to equal value for KG and Allen, whereas in the McHale/Parish transaction, we didn't.

EDIT: I shouldn't have been so quick to label it the best off-season in Celtics history. As noted above, in 1956 the Celtics ended up with Bill Russell, Tommy Heinsohn, and K.C. Jones, all out of one draft (they traded Ed Macauley, a Hall of Famer, for Russell's rights.)

The Celtics traded for the draft pick they wound up using to take Russell, and drafted Heinsohn the same year. They also traded for Parish the same offseason they drafted McHale.

Besides the Celts' great trades, Wilt Chamberlain was traded twice, Jabbar once, and Shaq once. Shaq also wound up as a FA in LA the same year they traded for a pick they could use to draft Kobe, and Moses Malone would up in Philly, presumably via trade.

I might not have this story exactly right, so somebody help me if I am off a little -- but I believe that The Celtics had the #2 pick and wanted Russell. Then owner Walter Brown offered the team holding the #1 pick a visit from his "Ice Capades" show, which meant a big payday for that arena -- in return for laying off Russell with the first pick. It might have been Rochester selecting Sihugo Green. So as the story goes, the Celtics got Russell for The Ice Capades!

birnam wrote:I might not have this story exactly right, so somebody help me if I am off a little -- but I believe that The Celtics had the #2 pick and wanted Russell. Then owner Walter Brown offered the team holding the #1 pick a visit from his "Ice Capades" show, which meant a big payday for that arena -- in return for laying off Russell with the first pick. It might have been Rochester selecting Sihugo Green. So as the story goes, the Celtics got Russell for The Ice Capades!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01004.html

Red's reputation was for being tough, and that's the way he liked it. Everyone in basketball knew he was a hard-nosed negotiator who was always looking for a way to make the Celtics better. The most famous move he ever made, as most people know, was trading the Ice Capades for Bill Russell. That wasn't literally what happened, but he did get his owner, Walter Brown, to persuade Rochester owner Les Harrison to pass on Russell with the first pick in the draft in return for Brown sending the Ice Capades (which he owned) to Rochester for a week.

That may explain why, when Jack Kent Cooke owned the Los Angeles Lakers, he categorically refused to talk about any trades with Red. "I know you'll fleece me, Red," Cooke told him. "I'm smart enough to know I'm not as smart as you."

birnam wrote:I might not have this story exactly right, so somebody help me if I am off a little -- but I believe that The Celtics had the #2 pick and wanted Russell. Then owner Walter Brown offered the team holding the #1 pick a visit from his "Ice Capades" show, which meant a big payday for that arena -- in return for laying off Russell with the first pick. It might have been Rochester selecting Sihugo Green. So as the story goes, the Celtics got Russell for The Ice Capades!

Close enough.

Rochester had the #1 pick, St. Louis had the #2, and Boston had the #7.

Rochester agreed to pass on Russell in return for extra Ice Capades dates from Celts' owner Walter Brown.

Red then worked out a deal for the #2 pick with St. Louis, giving up Ed Macauley and Cliff Hagan. The Celts took Russell, and then drafted Tommy Heinsohn with their own pick (claiming territorial rights to him) and got K.C. Jones later in the draft.

It's a little more complicated.

22 year old Bill Russell, whose college team had won 56 straight games and 2 consecutive NCAA championships, was insisting on a starting salary at the top of the NBA pay scale.

The Hawks had the League MVP in power forward Bob Petit, and were interested in the Celtics 6 Time All-Star Center, 28 year old local boy Ed Macauley.

The Celtics were a high scoring team in need of defense.

Under a rule that was eliminated in 1966, teams could exchange their First Round Pick for a player who went to high school or college within 100 miles of their arena.

PF Tommy Heinsohn, a banger like existing PF Jim Luscutoff, was the 2nd best player in the draft class. Auerbach gave up his #6 First Round Pick to claim Holy Crosses Tommy Heinsohn as a territorial pick, getting the 2nd best player in the draft in exchange for a #6 pick. That was the only time the Celtics ever took advantage of the territorial pick in the 20 years of its existence.

The best two players on the Rochester team, who had the right to the first pick in the draft, were their center and power forward. So, Rochester wanted a PG, SG or SF and were willing to take a PG, SG or SF in exchange for something that they considered worth while.

The Hawks, with the #2 pick, were willing to draft Russell at 2 and send him to the Celtics for 28 year old, already a 6 Time All-Star Ed Macauley, and the draft rights to Kentucky's Cliff Hagan, who at 24 was finishing up 2 year's in the Army. Hagan was a SF who averaged over 20 ppg for the next 4 seasons with the Hawks. So, the Hawks got two All-Stars for the draft rights to Bill Russell.

The owner of the Rochester team also owned the Arena, and was looking for bookings for the Arena. The Celtics owner also scheduled the Ice Capades. The deal he made was that in exchange for not drafting Russell at 1 (Rochester would take someone else), the Celtic Owner would guarantee 5 years of the Ice Capades for the two week period of the Rochester owner's choice. That translates to 10 weeks of bookings, and the associated concession revenue.

Although this is obviously the best trade in Celtic history, there are a number of other gems.

The Parish + McHale for the 1980 #1 pick and #13 pick did not look as bad to Golden State, who suggested it to Red Auerbach, with then Celtic Coach Bill Fitch lobbying hard for Auerbach to accept Golden State's offer.

Back then, Parish was a steady 17 ppg, 11 rpg guy after 4 years with the Warriors.
Joe Barry Carroll was expected to be better, some forecasted 25 and 12.
Parish maintained his output level, Joe Barry had one year of 21 and 8.

McHale was unknown, but the #13 pick was a complete bust for Golden State.

Some of the Celtics other great trades (off the top of my head, no reference books to consult):

1950 - Auerbach's first trade as a Celtic, traded First Round Pick, Center Charley Share, to Washington (Auerbach's team from 1946 thru 1949) for 2nd Round Pick SG Bill Sharman, a future 7 time All-Star, ALL-Star MVP and career 88% free throw shooter.

1966 - Using the idea of proration, traded 24 year old 7 foot center Mel Counts,
who in 7 mpg averaged 3.3 ppg and 3.3 rpg
(prorated to 42 mpg that's 19.8 ppg and 19.8 rpg)
for 1959 # 2 pick, already 6 Time All-Star Bailey Howell,
who for the next 3 seasons alongside Bill Russell, Sam Jones and John Havlicek,
maintained his career average of 21 ppg @ 48% and 9.8 rpg,
helping the Celtics win two more championships.
6' 7.5" PF Howell could dribble like a guard, bang underneath, or knock down an outside shot.

1972 - traded NBA rights to Charley Scott
(who led ABA in scoring his rookie year with 34 ppg in 1970)
to Phoenix for Paul Silas.

1975 - traded Paul Westphal to Phoenix for Charley Scott.

1983 - traded Rick Robey to Phoenix for Dennis Johnson.

1984 - traded Gerald Henderson to Seattle for 1986 First Round Pick (Len Bias) - great trade - despite the unfortunate result.

1985 - traded 30 year old Cedric Maxwell to the Clippers for 33 year old Center and 1978 MVP Bill Walton.

What's amazing is that every starter on the 1980s Celtics was heisted. Bird came by the bold move of drafting him a year early. Ainge came cheap because he wanted to play baseball. And McHale, Parish, and DJ came through great trades as cited above.

Jammer wrote:
1975 - traded Paul Westphal to Phoenix for Charley Scott.

Jammer -- Very nice job on that trade list. Although Charley Scott helped the Celtics to the 1976 title, Westphal went on to have a long and successful career and I always regretted that the Celtics did not keep him. He was spectacular in a losing effort to the Celtics in the 76 Finals. He would have been one of the greats in green and had his number in the rafters.

Red saw much others did not

GMs drafting ahead of Red passed on the following players for reasons that Red dismissed.

Bill Russell - no offense and too expensive

KC Jones - had a military service requirement before he could play

John Havlicek - a tweener; last pick of the first round of the 1962 draft; smallest player in that first round

JoJo White - had a military service requirement before he could play

Dave Cowens - too small (although only 3 players were taken ahead of him)

Larry Bird - another year of eligibility left

Danny Ainge - wanted to play baseball

And this just covers his drafting (although Russell was technically a trade Red wanted him from the start).

As former player agent Ron Grinker once said of Auerbach, "Red plays chess. The other general managers play checkers."

birnam wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Jammer -- Very nice job on that trade list. Although Charley Scott helped the Celtics to the 1976 title, Westphal went on to have a long and successful career and I always regretted that the Celtics did not keep him. He was spectacular in a losing effort to the Celtics in the 76 Finals. He would have been one of the greats in green and had his number in the rafters.

I am old enough to remember that trade and we all discussed it at length when it happened because on the surface Charlie Scott did not appear to a prototypical Celtic.

We drew the following conclusions (later validated by someone with some inside knowledge)

Westphal needed the ball to be effective - something that did not mesh especially well in a back court with Jo Jo White.

Charlie Scott was much more of a catch and shoot player that, despite his reputation, had a game more suited to the ball movement offense that was Auerbach's trademark.

Westphal was indifferent to defense and Red was not sure Don Chaney (a strong defensive stopper) would not jump to the ABA (he did) and Red always sought to have a big guard. Westphal was not it.

Scott rebounded better than Westphal and could post up smaller guards - no small point on that era Celtics which not a big team physically.

Comment.....small back courts have never been a Celtic tradition and the size of the current Celtic back court worries me.

Red had always liked Scott. He drafted him originally but Charlie went to the ABA. Red picked up Paul Silas for the rights to Scott.

Even though Charlie Scott was not known for his defense he did work harder at it than Westphal and could play bigger guards. That was important given that Hondo played very little guard in his later years.

Final point.....Phoenix traded Westy too for Dennis Johnson, who played might fine ball for the Green later on.

Edit: Just found this....

PAUL WESTPHAL fondly recalls his NBA days playing for the sulfuric Tommy Heinsohn: "His pep talks were tremendous. One of them had 72 bleeps in it -- and that was on Christmas Eve."