An outsider perspective

BBen · Post #1 » by **BBen** » Sat May 3, 2008 3:09 pm

This has been an amazing series to watch and I have a few observations I want to get off my chest. I'm not here to be a troll, I simply want to discuss these things with fans that have an interest in the series.

First of all, I don't know if any of you watched the San Antonio series but I'd like to use the Spurs as an example. When the refs give all the calls to the Hawks your team breaks down in complaints and anger. When the refs awarded awful calls to the Suns while at home everyone on the Spurs took it with a stone face and walked to the other end of the court. The difference is the fact that the other team can see when you're fazed by the refs and capitalize on it. This is a problem of coaching and overall playoff inexperience. Any good leader knows that in the playoffs you CANNOT worry about the refs and I have been continually surprised by the Celtics' outbursts. Remember, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and even Ray Allen (who hasn't been as much of a problem) all don't have much post-season experience. Even at home your team whined at the refs and that's certainly not a good way to get calls either. The best way is to change the momentum by ignoring them like the Spurs (and remember stone-face playoff MJ?) do.

I really think this is the defining part of the series for the Celtics. If you don't reconcile your emotions and just play ball you may not lose game seven (since the Hawks are completely overmatched) but you will certainly not make it to the finals. All the other stuff like jumpshot vs driving is irrelevant. Have you forgotten that you're simply a better team than the Hawks? Your coach and team captain are both setting bad examples by contesting every call and remember besides your big three you have a relatively young team. Rajon Rondo especially cannot be expected to keep his head in the game while Paul Pierce is losing his.

Don't be discouraged however, next year you'll be better prepared. I'm familiar with this syndrome, my 93-4 Sonics won 63 games to lose in the first round to an unknown Denver team then came back two years later to win 65 and go to the finals vs the best team ever (95-96 Bulls, we were the only team to take them twice that year).

Thoughts?

pballa · Post #2 » by **pballa** » Sat May 3, 2008 3:18 pm

When the refs awarded awful calls to the Suns while at home everyone on the Spurs took it with a stone face and walked to the other end of the court.

no...the spurs acted plenty to get numerous calls their way

Post #3 » by **UGA Hayes** » Sat May 3, 2008 3:19 pm

^ no offense but the FT differential in your series was 6 FT. If it was 12 FT like in our series your team would probably be sitting at home. Its easier to make those statements when your team moves on but I confident you would feel differently.

BBen · Post #4 » by **BBen** » Sat May 3, 2008 3:25 pm

Not sure who you're talking to, but I'm a Sonics fan and if you're talking to me you obviously didn't read my post ><.

pballa · Post #5 » by **pballa** » Sat May 3, 2008 3:27 pm

pretty sure Hayes is talking to you

BBen · Post #6 » by **BBen** » Sat May 3, 2008 3:29 pm

But my team didn't make it to the playoffs...

Celtics_85 · Post #7 » by **Celtics_85** » Sat May 3, 2008 3:34 pm

BBen, you can't come on here and think any of these raged fans would listen to reason or anything else from an outsider. Boston fans come a close second to NY fans in their raged behaviors.

BBen · Post #8 » by **BBen** » Sat May 3, 2008 3:36 pm

Well, I understand, a series like this can be really frustrating. I'm just surprised he read like 1/3 of my post and then commented.

DelMonte West · Post #9 » by **DelMonte West** » Sat May 3, 2008 3:38 pm

Good observations, BBen.

They particularly remind me of the 04/05 season when Walker came back. We started winning, but the overall attitude of the team gradually become more cocky and brash, resulting in Walker's ejection and Pierce's infamous meltdown.

Clearly I don't think it's anywhere near as noticeable now as it was then, but our guys can't forget to keep things level. The fact that Rondo's our most even-keeled guy is amazing, and I'm not sure if that's more a compliment to his maturity or lack thereof of some of our "vets".

Post #10 » by **UGA Hayes** » Sat May 3, 2008 3:41 pm

Sorry I misread your post in that I thought you alluded to yourself as Spurs fan. But its actually better than you're not so we can have a rational argument. Given the differential in the Suns losses in the Spurs Suns series 12 extra FT attempts rather than 6 ft for the Suns very likely would have won a couple more games. And even that number is misleading b/c I don't think ther were games where the indivdual diffferential was in excess of 20 FTs.

Basically I don't think the Spurs Demeanor mattered as much as those 6 extra FTs.

BBen · Post #11 » by **BBen** » Sat May 3, 2008 3:42 pm

Ok UGA, I'll respond to that rationally. The fact is, the Spurs go to the free throw line. They didn't let the refs take them out of the game so they kept going. It's simple.

Edit: Plus, they dominated the series in almost every way, not just free throws haha. If they hadn't ignored the refs that would not be the case. That's all I'm saying

Post #12 » by **UGA Hayes** » Sat May 3, 2008 4:07 pm

This is probably turning into a chicken and egg argument. I say what if they didn't go to the line and you say but they did go to the line. I'm sort of arguing we could be going to the line more, that we are driving and that we are getting fouled every bit as much at the opponent.

Statistically we are actually dominating the Hawks too. The only place we aren't is FTA they even said it during the ESPN broadcast.

BBen · Post #13 » by **BBen** » Sat May 3, 2008 4:09 pm

You probably have a point man. But even when you guys are winning you're yelling at the refs. That by itself gets you out of the game. What I'm saying is you're losing not because of anything statistical, it's because you're beating yourself by playing angry.

Post #14 » by **UGA Hayes** » Sat May 3, 2008 4:15 pm

To be fair I do think we lost our composure for a two minute period around the four minute mark. Thats why its hard to really analyze games. Its possible to get totally jobbed by official and still be in a position to the win a game. I think their is a segment of the watching public that says if you had a chance to win the fouls don't matter and a segment that thinks even if you have a chance the fouls should be brought up. I'm in the latter.

To me its analagous to two people running a race the same distance and one guy gets to tun on a flat course and the other gets to run up a steep incline. When the first guy win everyone keeps bringing up the point that hey they had to run the same distance whien the other guy had to run up the decline. Even worse everyone keep saying the second guy should also have won because he is more accomplished/experienced whatever.

BBen · Post #15 » by **BBen** » Sat May 3, 2008 4:20 pm

What I'm saying is that your behavior dictates the fouls. Look, refs are humans too, if you piss them off they'll retaliate like anyone else. Since the Celtics are whining like children and really getting under the ref's skins then hey, you're not getting it your way.

Post #16 » by **UGA Hayes** » Sat May 3, 2008 4:21 pm

I think you are overstating the players demeanor. Paul was the only guy to lose his cool and it was hardly any worse than what Tim Duncan or Ginobili or Tony does. Lets not act like the Spurs don't complain about fouls. The difference b/t us and SA is when a ref calls them out on their bitching the ref is indefinitely suspended.

Walton'sBeard! · Post #17 » by **Walton'sBeard!** » Sat May 3, 2008 4:23 pm

The Spurs are the whiniest team in the NBA bar none.

The bottom line is the Hawks create some bad matchups for the C's. And they have convinced themselves they can win, they're confident. And the C's don't have Spurs-like experience at putting teams away.

Anyway, the Celtics will win by 20 tomorrow and in a couple weeks this series will be all but forgotten.

Post #18 » by **UGA Hayes** » Sat May 3, 2008 4:24 pm

Walton'sBeard! wrote:The Spurs are the whiniest team in the NBA bar none.

The bottom line is the Hawks create some bad matchups for the C's. And they have convinced themselves they can win, they're confident. And the C's don't have Spurs-like experience at putting teams away.

Anyway, the Celtics will win by 20 tomorrow and in a couple weeks this series will be all but forgotten.

Well if their is anything we can hang our hat on is that first ginobili spurs team that won it all had a crazy playoffs where they repeately gave up huge leads in multiple series and the media storyline was why can't the spurs hold their leads.

BBen · Post #19 » by **BBen** » Sat May 3, 2008 4:30 pm

I simply used the Spurs as an example. You can look at any perennial championship team and see the all-business type demeanor. Hell, the Celtics used to have it. Also, I'm not remarking solely on your last game, I'm speaking about the whole series including the ones at home.

By the way, I agree that the Spurs whine in the normal season, but you obviously haven't watched them much in the playoffs.

Walton'sBeard! · Post #20 » by **Walton'sBeard!** » Sat May 3, 2008 4:37 pm

BBen wrote:I simply used the Spurs as an example. You can look at any perennial championship team and see the all-business type demeanor. Hell, the Celtics used to have it. Also, I'm not remarking solely on your last game, I'm speaking about the whole series including the ones at home.

By the way, I agree that the Spurs whine in the normal season, but you obviously haven't watched them much in the playoffs.

Yeah, I watched all 5 games. Tim Duncan doesn't whine that much. He usually just gives the ref that wide eyed confused look while holding out his hands anytime a foul goes against the Spurs. That's pretty tame compared to Oberto, who will commit hard fouls then run around the court on the verge of tears when the whistle blows. And Kurt Thomas is just embarrassing.

Ginobili has his moments too, although I haven't seen him whine much this year, last year he was pretty ridiculous at times. The Spurs have crafted whine like a fine wine.