I am not going to try and judge our game plans. Much of the time, our game plans were good in the regular season. They've worked to perfection at times in the playoffs. Even back when we lost to the Pacers in 7 games, while I didn't agree with the way Doc managed subs and what not in that series, we came out with excellent game plans a few times. Even when I haven't agreed with certain things, I admit there has probably been solid logic behind certain game plans that might be above my head.
Is it possible that during some of our rough stretches in the playoffs are game plans made perfect sense, and the players on the floor should have been able to execute well enough, and maybe were even best fit to execute. Maybe things didn't work of no fault to the game plan, but because player's didn't play their roles well. Fine.
But to cite that this means it is all the players' fault because of this is severely misguided. What should or can work on a given night is different than what will. If players never made mistakes, a good coach not be nearly so valuable as he can be in today's NBA. Its the coaches responsibility to make logical adjustments based on who is making what mistakes, who will likely continue making certain mistakes, and what other options exist in terms of both personnel and strategy. Its the coach's job to have plans in place should a scheme fail or be adjusted to. If Doc is not sufficiently taking care of this responsibility, he is at fault just as much as the player who misses his assignment or rotation every so often. And as much as overreaction isn't needed, it is not always overreaction persay, because when Doc screws up, it is worse than when a random player screws up because Doc's the one with the most authority. The trickle down theory comes into play.
Plan A might be amazing. Perhaps it should work as long as all the players do their jobs. Perhaps it should be given a shot if it doesn't work initially, if it is logical to believe it will start working. But if its not working as well as Plan B might work - maybe because the players aren't focused enough, maybe because its a playoff series and your opponent has noticed certain players have certain weaknesses while studying film - then its not working.
To stick with Plan A - which would work perfectly if players played like they should be expected to play - and to have it not work - does not make Doc a victim of his players. If anything it would make him a loser with a victim's mentality. Don't get me wrong - I am not saying that he is a loser with a victim's mentality. I am just saying that people shouldn't victimize him for the same reason Doc shouldn't (and in fairness doesn't IMO) victimize himself.
Against the Pacers years back, you could have argued - and I would have disagreed with you but you could have argued - that Doc was doing the best to come up with game plans that gave our team the only chance it had to beat the Pacers. You could have argued our players just weren't that great, and there was no pliable plan B that would have worked. There is no such argument here. We know what our players are capable of based on what we have seen them do all season long, and based on what they have done previously in their careers.
Do I agree completely with our defensive gameplan versus the Cavs? Fundamentally, no. I don't think you can stop Lebron - and I think that even when you think you have stopped him you haven't because he's the type of player - like KG perhaps - that can have a seemingly horrible game yet still do so many things to contribute to his team that just simply go unnoticed. But, because you know one player can't beat you, you can focus on shutting down his teamates and not worry so much.
The current game plan seems to be designed to stop Lebron as much as it is to stop the Cavs. Don't agree with it. I also don't like that, as opposed to letting KG match up with Lebron, or as opposed to playing Posey or TA more, PP has to shoulder much of that responsibility at times. He's showed himself capable enough, but thats not the point. He's arguably not as capable, and moreover, against a team with solid wing defense that has been shutting down our wings, we need more of PP's energy reserved for the other end of the court.
Can I argue with the current defensive game plan? Not really. It worked to perfection the first two games. Or at least in game 2. On the surface it worked in game 1 but we still wouldn't have won the game if KG didn't play superman on some level.
But, in the first half of today's game (unfortunately I was unable to watch the 2nd half, so i can't comment there), I don't know if the Cavs made adjustments (which would be anticipatable), and/or our players just weren't focused on the road, but regardless of reason it wasn't working. There was no need to stick with it so closely IMO.
In general, especially considering that plan A and probably plan B at times hasn't always worked for us thus far in the playoffs, it is absolute bull that Tony Allen is hardly playing at all. He simply brings too much to the table to sit on the bench so much.
Now, Sam Cassell and PJ Brown. By all indications from the past two years, they are not better than Glen Davis or Eddie House. Sure, there are times when we could certainly use one or the other on the floor. Sure, Cassell is more of a PG, than House, and that justifies minutes for him on occasion. Sure, both players have experience and guidance that they can help us in the locker room. But, besides those points, think of this:
A large reason for our dominance thru much of the season had been attributed to team chemistry. A large reason for our team's chemistry had been cited as the bonding which occured during training camp in Europe. The two players currently on our team who were not a part of that: Cassell & Brown.
Their additions can only have the potential to help us on some level, and really they do. But when Doc starts making either one a more important part of our rotations without solid enough logic behing his decision to do so (and please note that our team kinda sucked without Rondo throughout the season, so we kinda have to live and die with him to some extent)....thats when chemistry, and ubuntu, is affected.
Finally, two closing points, and I promise I am done. First, if the Cavs are going to leave Rondo open for shots, there is no rule that says he can't pass up the open shot in favor of driving towards the hoop and moving a defender or two out of position in the process. Second, I might or might not be overreacting, but regardless there is not too much reason to overreact just yet. I mean what we have seen so far in this series is not worse than what we saw versus the Hawks. And, as much as I don't view the Cavs as a top 4 or top 5 team, I feel they just might match up with us better than any other team in the league.
Please stop with the "its all the players fault"
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Please stop with the "its all the players fault"
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threrf23
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PPAW4Life
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Doc has to be more aware on the road....he can't let momentum spurts drag out for the other team.
Timeouts are there for a reason. Tell your players what they're doing wrong and let some of the crowd run out of voice.
The C's could have easily come back in this game because they got stops and couldn't hit layups or took bad bad shots in transition or they couldn't grab a defensive board after a stop.
Doc needs to take players out who are not defending...bottom line.
Rondo was getting tooled by West and there was no adjustment.....at home sure you can let your guys sort through their mistakes but on the road you need to make a change because you're missing an opportunity.
You have Tony Allen on the bench who can actually guard any "smalls" on the Cavs just fine.....use him once in a while. Go offense - defense....do something to shake up the Cavs momentum.
Timeouts are there for a reason. Tell your players what they're doing wrong and let some of the crowd run out of voice.
The C's could have easily come back in this game because they got stops and couldn't hit layups or took bad bad shots in transition or they couldn't grab a defensive board after a stop.
Doc needs to take players out who are not defending...bottom line.
Rondo was getting tooled by West and there was no adjustment.....at home sure you can let your guys sort through their mistakes but on the road you need to make a change because you're missing an opportunity.
You have Tony Allen on the bench who can actually guard any "smalls" on the Cavs just fine.....use him once in a while. Go offense - defense....do something to shake up the Cavs momentum.
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Joebiscuit
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cloverleaf
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I don't buy the 'it's not Doc's fault' arguments either. One of his less endearing traits is how he'll toss his young players under the nearest Greyhound in the arena parking lot after a loss, but deny it if it was his vaunted veterans playing worse. All year long his mantra--in a defense of his heretofore poor playoffs record--has been that you need veterans to win and how they'll need to count on the veterans to win come playoffs time.
How'd you like to be one of his two young starters hearing all year long that they won't be able to handle the playoffs? Then, despite Rondo's playing fantastically in the first two playoff games, he gets singled out by Doc again when the whole team falters, has his minutes squeezed, and basically gets benched for 4th quarters. Remember a couple of games ago when Doc told the media he'd told Rondo that just because the opposing team gives him an open jumper doesn't mean he has to take it? Since then, Rondo's been caught in fear and indecision whenever he's faced an open jumper.
Another one of Doc's less attractive habits is how when the team stumbles he's so quick to explain that sage that he is he had foreseen and told the players that they might fall behind in the first, play without enough energy, etc.. He thinks he's demonstrating his intelligence to us when really, if he's to be believed--and he probably should be believed since he often says similar things in his pregame interviews--he had made a point of outlining for the players before the game just how they might screw up, to what consequence--and had them follow through by doing exactly that. It's like a pitching coach going to the mound and saying 'whatever you do, just make sure you don't throw it high and away.'
How'd you like to be one of his two young starters hearing all year long that they won't be able to handle the playoffs? Then, despite Rondo's playing fantastically in the first two playoff games, he gets singled out by Doc again when the whole team falters, has his minutes squeezed, and basically gets benched for 4th quarters. Remember a couple of games ago when Doc told the media he'd told Rondo that just because the opposing team gives him an open jumper doesn't mean he has to take it? Since then, Rondo's been caught in fear and indecision whenever he's faced an open jumper.
Another one of Doc's less attractive habits is how when the team stumbles he's so quick to explain that sage that he is he had foreseen and told the players that they might fall behind in the first, play without enough energy, etc.. He thinks he's demonstrating his intelligence to us when really, if he's to be believed--and he probably should be believed since he often says similar things in his pregame interviews--he had made a point of outlining for the players before the game just how they might screw up, to what consequence--and had them follow through by doing exactly that. It's like a pitching coach going to the mound and saying 'whatever you do, just make sure you don't throw it high and away.'
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Banks2Pierce
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Doc has to be more aware on the road....he can't let momentum spurts drag out for the other team.
Timeouts are there for a reason. Tell your players what they're doing wrong and let some of the crowd run out of voice.
Amen, brother.
I think this is Doc's worst coaching trait. He refuses to call timeouts during the other teams' runs.
Instead of taking the timeout at 10-4 when Wally hits a 3 to push it to a 10-0 run, he waits til it gets to 14-4. I mainly have a problem with this because the offense clearly has no flow to it and it can only get worse if he continues to let them play.
In that god awful first quarter where they outscore us by 19 and put the game away, we only take one timeout.
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ParticleMan
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Mike Brown took a close loss and a beatdown in Boston. Doc took one in Cleveland. But Doc is hands-down the worst coach? LMAO.
It's certainly not all the players fault. But Doc took timeouts twice in the 1st Q last night, which I can't recall ever seeing him do. You only get so many in a game, you can't use one every time an opponent scores 4 straight points.
The players came out with zero energy. zero. They sleepwalked thru most of the 1st half. That's partly on Doc, he has to get them ready better. But it's also on the players.
I seriously doubt Doc has a different game plan for the road than at home. The same things that won us 2 games in Boston are the things he is drawing up in Cleveland. It's also what made us the best road team in basketball during the RS. But if the players refuse to play with any energy, all the coaching in the world isn't going to save the team. It's a team effort, and a team failure.
It's certainly not all the players fault. But Doc took timeouts twice in the 1st Q last night, which I can't recall ever seeing him do. You only get so many in a game, you can't use one every time an opponent scores 4 straight points.
The players came out with zero energy. zero. They sleepwalked thru most of the 1st half. That's partly on Doc, he has to get them ready better. But it's also on the players.
I seriously doubt Doc has a different game plan for the road than at home. The same things that won us 2 games in Boston are the things he is drawing up in Cleveland. It's also what made us the best road team in basketball during the RS. But if the players refuse to play with any energy, all the coaching in the world isn't going to save the team. It's a team effort, and a team failure.
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UGA Hayes
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I hope people read the OP b/c I think it is well written and is nuanced.
I thought Doc did solid during the first round. I'm far less enthused by whats going on the second round. The thing that is killing me more that anything is that we have been extremely rigid with our rotations for better or for worse. IT really feels like we are not making adjustments. I don't understand how people can be defensive of this. I'm not accusing him of making bad adjustments, but making no adjustments. We shouldn't know exactly what time guys are going to come in and out of game, but we do.
I thought Doc did solid during the first round. I'm far less enthused by whats going on the second round. The thing that is killing me more that anything is that we have been extremely rigid with our rotations for better or for worse. IT really feels like we are not making adjustments. I don't understand how people can be defensive of this. I'm not accusing him of making bad adjustments, but making no adjustments. We shouldn't know exactly what time guys are going to come in and out of game, but we do.
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Rocky5000
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It's not all the player's fault, but there is no way for Doc to anticipate what Mike Brown is planning for the next game. Brown made an adjustment with the way he used LeBron(specifically his weaves and where they set picks) and it paid off immediately. So by the time Doc called a timeout the game was practically over. It's difficult to make an adjustment without calling a timeout. Maybe he should have called it earlier....but I don't think it would have helped much. BECAUSE...
I've never seen Doc make a good in game adjustment after a team has 'figured' out his offense or defense.(maybe in this case it was thibodeau...)
From my experience with him in the playoffs, he can make adjustments that payoff, but they usually comes 1 to 2 games later.
This was especially true while facing the Pacers, where Doc's adjustments would work for 1 to 2 quarters before Carlisle would design a scheme to overcome what Doc was doing. Carlisle's response was about 4 times faster than what Doc was doing, it was like playing a game of Chess where the other guy gets to move 4 pieces before you move one.
In summary what I'm saying is, we shouldn't expect Doc to use in game wizardry very often to get us back into games in the playoffs. But we also shouldn't expect Perk to start nailing 3s. In game adjustments aren't one of Doc's strong points (from interviews he seems to not even 'believe in them') but there are other things he does from fair to well, like pregame preparation, managing player personalities, and plays out of timeouts.
We can't blame one individual for a loss, we need to blame practically the entire team, that includes: the point guard who's afraid to shoot, the defensive guru, the shooting guard blowing defensive rotations, and the center who suddenly thinks he's Vlade Divac.
I've never seen Doc make a good in game adjustment after a team has 'figured' out his offense or defense.(maybe in this case it was thibodeau...)
From my experience with him in the playoffs, he can make adjustments that payoff, but they usually comes 1 to 2 games later.
This was especially true while facing the Pacers, where Doc's adjustments would work for 1 to 2 quarters before Carlisle would design a scheme to overcome what Doc was doing. Carlisle's response was about 4 times faster than what Doc was doing, it was like playing a game of Chess where the other guy gets to move 4 pieces before you move one.
In summary what I'm saying is, we shouldn't expect Doc to use in game wizardry very often to get us back into games in the playoffs. But we also shouldn't expect Perk to start nailing 3s. In game adjustments aren't one of Doc's strong points (from interviews he seems to not even 'believe in them') but there are other things he does from fair to well, like pregame preparation, managing player personalities, and plays out of timeouts.
We can't blame one individual for a loss, we need to blame practically the entire team, that includes: the point guard who's afraid to shoot, the defensive guru, the shooting guard blowing defensive rotations, and the center who suddenly thinks he's Vlade Divac.
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dinoz
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Rocky5000 wrote:It's not all the player's fault, but there is no way for Doc to anticipate what Mike Brown is planning for the next game. Brown made an adjustment with the way he used LeBron(specifically his weaves and where they set picks) and it paid off immediately. So by the time Doc called a timeout the game was practically over. It's difficult to make an adjustment without calling a timeout. Maybe he should have called it earlier....but I don't think it would have helped much. BECAUSE...
I've never seen Doc make a good in game adjustment after a team has 'figured' out his offense or defense.(maybe in this case it was thibodeau...)
From my experience with him in the playoffs, he can make adjustments that payoff, but they usually comes 1 to 2 games later.
This was especially true while facing the Pacers, where Doc's adjustments would work for 1 to 2 quarters before Carlisle would design a scheme to overcome what Doc was doing. Carlisle's response was about 4 times faster than what Doc was doing, it was like playing a game of Chess where the other guy gets to move 4 pieces before you move one.
In summary what I'm saying is, we shouldn't expect Doc to use in game wizardry very often to get us back into games in the playoffs. But we also shouldn't expect Perk to start nailing 3s. In game adjustments aren't one of Doc's strong points (from interviews he seems to not even 'believe in them') but there are other things he does from fair to well, like pregame preparation, managing player personalities, and plays out of timeouts.
We can't blame one individual for a loss, we need to blame practically the entire team, that includes: the point guard who's afraid to shoot, the defensive guru, the shooting guard blowing defensive rotations, and the center who suddenly thinks he's Vlade Divac.
No way Doc can anticipate? Part of being a coach is to anticipate what adjustments the other coach is going to make.
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MyInsatiableOne
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MaxwellSmart wrote:Heinsohn said it best: let Lebron score 50---Stop everybody else.....it was everybody else who beat us tonight.
Exactly. We contained LeBron pretty well in game 3. The other guys just had abberration games where they hit a ton of shots. Be honest, is Delonte gonna score 20 every night? Is Wally gonna hit every shot? Is LeBron gonna hit 4+ 3-ptrs? Is JOE SMITH gonna get 10? No. Z will get his, LeBron will score one way or another, but if the other guys play the way they normally do, we should be fine.
It's still 17 to 11!!!!
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sam_I_am
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Here is a perfect example of great coaching. In San Antonio, there are times when the matchups lead them to start Manu. Yet for most of the season their premier scoring wing was a 6th man.
Now look at this series. Ray Allen cannot buy a basket and seems incapable of guarding Wally who is really a SF at the 2.
So why not see more of Pierce at the 2 and Posey at the 3 against Wally and Lebron. Make Lebron defend Paul at one end and try to score against Posey at the other. And exploit Wally with either Posey or Pierce who can outmuscle him as well as outrun him.
Now look at this series. Ray Allen cannot buy a basket and seems incapable of guarding Wally who is really a SF at the 2.
So why not see more of Pierce at the 2 and Posey at the 3 against Wally and Lebron. Make Lebron defend Paul at one end and try to score against Posey at the other. And exploit Wally with either Posey or Pierce who can outmuscle him as well as outrun him.
"I think the criticism's stupid," Stevens said. "So I don't care. I'm with Jaylen (Brown) on that. Those two had achieved more than most 25 and 26 year olds ever had. I'd rather be in the mix and have my guts ripped out than suck."
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MyInsatiableOne
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^^Not a bad idea. However I believe Doc (and I tend to agree) is of the mindset that you dance with who you brought, so to speak, and if it worked so well for them so far, stick with it. However another game like the last and this would be a great adjustment.
That being said, we got beaten mostly because Cleveland's scrubs learned how to play basketball for a game. There is no way that team is going to score 100 points again or get that production from Delonte/Wally/Joe Smith/Wallace on a regular basis...
That being said, we got beaten mostly because Cleveland's scrubs learned how to play basketball for a game. There is no way that team is going to score 100 points again or get that production from Delonte/Wally/Joe Smith/Wallace on a regular basis...
It's still 17 to 11!!!!
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tombattor
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MyInsatiableOne wrote:^^Not a bad idea. However I believe Doc (and I tend to agree) is of the mindset that you dance with who you brought, so to speak, and if it worked so well for them so far, stick with it. However another game like the last and this would be a great adjustment.
MyInsatiableOne, you know where I'm going with this one...
So he goes with what he brought us here, yet we're now playing Sam Cassell 20+ minutes to kill the offense and jackup shots, when Eddie House brought us? He's killing us. We gotta take him out. Where's Tonya Harding when you need a little leg breaking...
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MyInsatiableOne
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