Ray vs. Rip

[tombattor]

I'm glad Ray finally started hitting some shots. Hopefully it'll carry over to the next game. Especially on those shots down the stretch, he was looking like Ray of old and was looking a lot more aggressive.

OTOH, Rip really showed me why he's considered one of the best big game SGs in the league. He really doesn't get rattled and his consistency is amazing.

What I'm amazed at more than anything though is Rip's ability to get open. When I see the game, I see Rip and Ray running through a similar set of screens, yet when Rip comes off the last screen, Ray's at least a step behind him. Which gives Rip space to pop up for a shot. However, when Ray comes off similar set of screens, Rip is still right on his ass, thus not giving Ray the same catch-and-shoot opportunities.

Is it simply the case of Rip doing a better job of chasing through screens? Is Ray slower? I don't know what it is. Can someone explain?

[Celtics_85]

The one thing you notice about Hamilton every time you watch him is how the guy gets open. Replay some of these games and tell me how many times this guy should get called for pushing off or grabbing guys, and that is only on the offensive end. His whole career he has been able to get away with throwing his elbows around. It won't look so bad because the guy is so thin, but he either knocks his guy off balance before taking off around a screen or will use the screeners guy by grabbing him and pulling himself around the screen quicker. Both involve contact against a defender which is a foul, but he just doesn't get called for it.

[MyInsatiableOne]

The one thing you notice about Hamilton every time you watch him is how the guy gets open. Replay some of these games and tell me how many times this guy should get called for pushing off or grabbing guys, and that is only on the offensive end. His whole career he has been able to get away with throwing his elbows around. It won't look so bad because the guy is so thin, but he either knocks his guy off balance before taking off around a screen or will use the screeners guy by grabbing him and pulling himself around the screen quicker. Both involve contact against a defender which is a foul, but he just doesn't get called for it.

Combine that dirtiness with Billups kicking guys in the junk to draw shooting fouls and you have the latter day version of Reggie Miller!

[tombattor]

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Combine that dirtiness with Billups kicking guys in the junk to draw shooting fouls and you have the latter day version of Reggie Miller!

God, I hated Reggie Miller...

[ermocrate]

Is it simply the case of Rip doing a better job of chasing through screens? Is Ray slower? I don't know what it is. Can someone explain?

That's RIP job to me, he's not able like Ray in creating a shot off the dribble but he's the n

[MyInsatiableOne]

Rip has also perfect the Reggie Miller push-off to get free. Totally legal play, too

[MyInsatiableOne]

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God, I hated Reggie Miller...

He's one of those guys, like Stockton and Malone, who you thought only got dirty toward the end of his career, but when you actually step back and look, was a dirty player his entire career.

[Bad-Thoma]

The one thing you notice about Hamilton every time you watch him is how the guy gets open. Replay some of these games and tell me how many times this guy should get called for pushing off or grabbing guys, and that is only on the offensive end. His whole career he has been able to get away with throwing his elbows around. It won't look so bad because the guy is so thin, but he either knocks his guy off balance before taking off around a screen or will use the screeners guy by grabbing him and pulling himself around the screen quicker. Both involve contact against a defender which is a foul, but he just doesn't get called for it.

I've always hated that about him, he does get away with a lot of off the ball BS. I guess it's a sign of his saviness that he is aware of what he can get away with, but it still pisses me off.

[celticfan42487]

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God, I hate Reggie Miller...

there you go, fixed if for ya. For some reason you added a D to the word hate.

[Muzzleshot]

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I've always hated that about him, he does get away with a lot of off the ball BS. I guess it's a sign of his saviness that he is aware of what he can get away with, but it still pisses me off.

And he gets a lot of it also. There's probably not a player in the NBA that gets held, pushed and shoved as much as Hamilton.

It's there, you just have to look at it with an unbiased eye.
Hamilton's offensive game is predicated on effort and hustle. Most players can't stay with him for the entire game, hence the holding and grabbing.

[ermocrate]

Wait a minute, I've replayed alot of the screens for Rip and the other Pistons' players, I've noticed that most of them are not real screens, they just step in the way of their teammate that turns around them, they continue their movement and the defender has to do alot more street to turn around this "moving screen", it's a smart system but if someone starts to hit the screener while he moves the refree have to call an offensive foul... The sad is that that foul won't be called in the NBA, that's why it's harder that expected for an USA team to win in International ball, they are not used to respect Bball rules.

[Rondo_Fan]

Rip seems to be a lot more active on the offensive end than Ray is.

Rip runs to get open.

Sure he pushes off and stuff, but the guy is a master at moving without the ball.

It's a fundamental.

[ermocrate]

Rip seems to be a lot more active on the offensive end than Ray is.

Rip runs to get open.

Sure he pushes off and stuff, but the guy is a master at moving without the ball.

It's a fundamental.

Rip is more active simply because without that he would not play as a starter in the NBA, that is his ONLY quality, Ray doesn't need that to score 20+ PPG...

[Rondo_Fan]

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Rip is more active simply because without that he would not play as a starter in the NBA, that is his ONLY quality, Ray doesn't need that to score 20+ PPG...

Well, he's a great jump shooter with a quick release too.

[O.Z.123]

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Rip is more active simply because without that he would not play as a starter in the NBA, that is his ONLY quality, Ray doesn't need that to score 20+ PPG...

so what are Ray's vast range of multifaceted nba starter "qualities" once you've taken away that often broke jumper of his? (yknow, the same broke jumper that, up until yesterday, had folks on ur own board denouncing him from the big 3 and wanting him benched in favor of posey to start off games during the cavs series?)

handles? nope.
defense? lol
passing? eh..
impeccable technical foul shooting off of defensive 3 seconds? i guess.. but eddie house could give u that too.

i just don't see how u can call rip one dimensional relative to ray allen of all people.. especially when ray's "less active" self hasn't exactly been dropping 20 points a game these playoffs

[ermocrate]

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so what are Ray's vast range of multifaceted nba starter "qualities" once you've taken away that often broke jumper of his? (yknow, the same broke jumper that, up until yesterday, had folks on ur own board denouncing him from the big 3 and wanting him benched in favor of posey to start off games during the cavs series?)

handles? nope.
defense? lol
passing? eh..
impeccable technical foul shooting off of defensive 3 seconds? i guess.. but eddie house could give u that too.

i just don't see how u can call rip one dimensional relative to ray allen of all people.. especially when ray's "less active" self hasn't exactly been dropping 20 points a game these playoffs

You're living in a dream world, Rip is just a good guard, he can't compare to one of the 5-6 best guards in the game for the last 10 years, Ray handles, passes and shoots 3 times better than Rip, Rip's lonely quality is his running and a good midrange shoot, that's all he does on a BBall court, he does it well but he only does that.

Rip an Ray have
the same 2ptsFG%
the same TOpg

Ray is a better far better 3pt shooter, better rebounder, gives more assists and makes more steals.

The difference between the two is that Ray has always been the 1st offensive option on a crappy team, that means you have to force shoots, handle the ball alot and your assists will not be "completed" because you got crappy teammates...

Rip instead, since is in Detroit, always played with good to great teammates, his only goal is to score, he hasn't to win games all alone, he can't be tripled because no one of his teammates can score...