ImageImageImage

"The dwindling international star"

Moderators: bisme37, Froob, Darthlukey, Shak_Celts, Parliament10, canman1971, shackles10, snowman

User avatar
campybatman
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,100
And1: 185
Joined: Apr 19, 2007

"The dwindling international star" 

Post#1 » by campybatman » Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:22 pm

I thought this was an interesting read.



It’s not that the Celtics didn’t scout international players; Ainge is a big fan of the Knicks’ draftee, Danilo Gallinari, having seen him in the flesh many times as
well as on tape. But in Ainge’s opinion, the just-concluded NBA draft wasn’t exactly overflowing with jaw-dropping international talent.

“I think it’s deep not with star-type players, but with a lot of role players,’’ he said. “And I think a lot of them will make the league.”

And a lot of them will probably stay exactly where they are.



Out of all the Europeans drafted since 2003 – and almost 30 of them were first rounders from 2003-2007 – there have been only a few who have had any discernable impact in the league. And that includes the No. 1 overall pick in 2006, Italian Andrea Bargnani. The best thing the Raptors can say about him now is that with the addition of Jermaine O’Neal, Bargnani can go back to the bench. He may eventually become worthy of his draft selection, but, to date, he hasn’t. And the Bucks had one year to look at Yi Jianlian, the No. 6 pick in 2007, and traded him. Eventually, he, too, might become a star.

What do we make of all this? First, the NBA may have exhausted the immediate talent overseas and needs to wait for another cycle. Second, it’s no longer a stigma for some of these players to not play in the NBA. Jasikevicius is happy where he is. Vazquez, presumably, is as well, along with Spanoulis, who was so homesick in Houston even with his mother living with him. Tiago Splitter is likely to remain in Spain where he can be paid more than what the Spurs can offer him.



But here’s another possibility, which we saw first-hand in the NBA Finals. Most of these international players don’t play defense. (Andrei Kirilenko being the notable exception). That doesn’t necessarily constitute news, or a dirty little secret, but it was painfully obvious to anyone who paid more than casual attention to the NBA Finals.



In the balloting for the 2008 Defensive Player of the Year award, Kirilenko was the only international player to get a vote. He got one. When the coaches picked their 2008 All-Defensive team, 36 players got votes. Three – Kirilenko, Ginobili and Andres Nocioni – got votes and none was close to making either of the two teams.



Defense was behind the success of the Spurs over the years. (And no, Tony Parker can’t guard his shadow, but he has been drilled relentlessly by Gregg Popovich into how to play a team concept.) This year’s Celtics’ team, which had no international players, won with its defense. But how many Kevin Garnetts are out there, even in the United States?

NBA executives will still spend and scout extensively overseas for, as we’ve seen in ever NBA draft, it’s a good futures pool. They’re not going to suddenly turn into hoop xenophobes and, as noted, the jury is still out on players like Bargnani and Yi.

But how many more teams need to win a title, like this year’s Celtics, before teams start talking about defense the way they do about offense? No one is talking about Gallinari’s defense - and his new coach in New York isn’t exactly known for it either.


http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/may/20 ... onal-star/
Fencer reregistered
RealGM
Posts: 40,990
And1: 27,864
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Re: "The dwindling international star" 

Post#2 » by Fencer reregistered » Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:33 pm

bonsaiflipflops wrote:

But here’s another possibility, which we saw first-hand in the NBA Finals. Most of these international players don’t play defense. (Andrei Kirilenko being the notable exception).


Hakeem, Dikembe, and Manu say Hi.

Typical Peter May -- well-written, rooted in vast experience, and very sloppily thought out nonetheless.


In fairness, he wasn't referring to international players who went to college in the US -- still, he should have thought it through and then defended his point a little better.
Banned temporarily for, among other sins, being "Extremely Deviant".
BillessuR6
General Manager
Posts: 8,785
And1: 2,610
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
 

Re: "The dwindling international star" 

Post#3 » by BillessuR6 » Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:03 pm

Rasho says hi!
John Locke
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,957
And1: 38
Joined: Nov 28, 2004

Re: "The dwindling international star" 

Post#4 » by John Locke » Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:10 pm

Wow, this is stupid. Yeah, the Spurs built their title teams on defense. And still had Tony Parker, Manu, Orberto and even Elson. But still International players don't play defense? Sasha Vujacic played very good defense in the Finals.

This is just a stupid article, that's it. Sure, international players are sometimes vastly overrated in the draft. But guess what, so are some college players.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User avatar
campybatman
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,100
And1: 185
Joined: Apr 19, 2007

Re: "The dwindling international star" 

Post#5 » by campybatman » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:02 am

I think the point is being missed somewhat. The article isn't necessarily about one writer calling out the defensive prowess of international players. No, he's bringing up the lack of anymore "stars" in the NBA from overseas like Nowitzki, Gasol or even Okur. I won't get into the defense... But, I do think that international players are being thought of as simply being role players at the most on a good team nowadays. However, names such as Beno Udrih, Anderson Varejao, Leandrinho Barbosa, Sasha Vujacic, Luis Scola and perhaps Rudy Fernandez (when he gets a few years under his belt with Portland) could possibly all contribute not as just role players but as legitimate starters for a team. I think that says something as oppose to only deeming them a star if they're named to an All-Star game.
PPAW4Life
Banned User
Posts: 1,546
And1: 1
Joined: Nov 23, 2007

Re: "The dwindling international star" 

Post#6 » by PPAW4Life » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:08 am

The International game just isn't the same as the NBA.

It's much less physical and the fundamentals are all honed on the offensive side...dribbling, shooting, passing.

Playing tough nose, physical, one-on-one defense is not a big priority over there....they want fast paced scoring.

It's not fair to label all the Euros as being "soft" or can't play a lick of defense (which maybe accurate most of the time) but out of the all the NBA players more than 70% of them don't play real tough defense either.
User avatar
campybatman
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,100
And1: 185
Joined: Apr 19, 2007

Re: "The dwindling international star" 

Post#7 » by campybatman » Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:22 am

PPAW4Life wrote:The International game just isn't the same as the NBA.

It's much less physical and the fundamentals are all honed on the offensive side...dribbling, shooting, passing.



I can agree with that. I don't like that brand of basketball where two teams show little to no semblance of team or man-to-man defense. I was watching a highlight on Youtube of a game (yes, I understand it's one game) that involved Erden's team. And it was nothing but back and forth, racing up and down the length of the court shooting threes and dunking the ball from blown coverage by the opposing team or offensive put backs. It was as if both teams were being timed on how fast they could get to one hundred points in the alloted time. I don't mind watching a player who understands the fundamentals of basketball. But, I really dislike teams that don't play defense and they're all about the offense mostly. They [national media or NBA observers] claim that defense equals boring but the Celtics in the NBA finals wasn't boring basketball to watch because unlike Detroit or San Antonio, they featured players such as Pierce and Ray Allen who can fill it up. Even Garnett can go off when he chooses to. But, Boston's emphasis throughout the playoffs this season was always on playing good defense.
Fencer reregistered
RealGM
Posts: 40,990
And1: 27,864
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Re: "The dwindling international star" 

Post#8 » by Fencer reregistered » Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:18 am

Teams on which one or more of the better players are foreign include:

Dallas
Phoenix
San Antonio
Lakers
Orlando
Cleveland
Chicago
Houston
Toronto
Utah

Most (not all) of the foreigners in that group are fairly light-skinned, and most (not all) of those light-skinned guys are questionable defenders.

So when painting with a very broad brush, the stereotype has some validity.

But let's not take the racial stereotype to extremes (Hondo, McHale, and even the freckled DJ say Hi ), and let's not take the rest to extremes either.
Banned temporarily for, among other sins, being "Extremely Deviant".
John Locke
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,957
And1: 38
Joined: Nov 28, 2004

Re: "The dwindling international star" 

Post#9 » by John Locke » Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:54 am

bonsaiflipflops: I disagree about so many things in this article, not just the defenisve part. And you talk about lack of stars since Dirk, Pau and even Memo. Well, it's not like they are forty years old. They are still playing. It's like saying that since Kobe, Garnett and Duncan, Chris Paul is the only star.
And still, the guy who Draftexpress.com has number 1 next year is European: Ricky Rubio.

And when you guys talk about things like the international game isn't as much about defense, you show your true colours. The Spanish and the Turkish league are very different. The Argentinian brand of basketball is a lot different then the Italian. I could go on.
And just so you know, I've played with many good college players who've come over to Europe and almost everyone said that much more contact was allowed here then in College.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User avatar
campybatman
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,100
And1: 185
Joined: Apr 19, 2007

Re: "The dwindling international star" 

Post#10 » by campybatman » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:54 am

John Locke wrote:bonsaiflipflops: I disagree about so many things in this article, not just the defenisve part. And you talk about lack of stars since Dirk, Pau and even Memo. Well, it's not like they are forty years old. They are still playing. It's like saying that since Kobe, Garnett and Duncan, Chris Paul is the only star.
And still, the guy who Draftexpress.com has number 1 next year is European: Ricky Rubio.

And when you guys talk about things like the international game isn't as much about defense, you show your true colours. The Spanish and the Turkish league are very different. The Argentinian brand of basketball is a lot different then the Italian. I could go on.
And just so you know, I've played with many good college players who've come over to Europe and almost everyone said that much more contact was allowed here then in College.



What are you talking about? Read my posts again and highlight where my words are negative, stereotypical, biased, offensive, condescending or any other derogatory adjective you want to put in my mouth. I haven't said anything negative either way other than I didn't like what I was seeing in the game clip involving Erden and teammates and the team they were facing.

Here's what I wrote, "I don't like that brand of basketball where two teams show little to no semblance of team or man-to-man defense. I was watching a highlight on Youtube of a game (yes, I understand it's one game) that involved Erden's team. And it was nothing but back and forth, racing up and down the length of the court shooting threes and dunking the ball from blown coverage by the opposing team or offensive put backs." Further, "No, he's bringing up the lack of anymore "stars" in the NBA from overseas like Nowitzki, Gasol or even Okur."

Also, I wrote, "But, I do think that international players are being thought of as simply being role players at the most on a good team nowadays. However, names such as Beno Udrih, Anderson Varejao, Leandrinho Barbosa, Sasha Vujacic, Luis Scola and perhaps Rudy Fernandez (when he gets a few years under his belt with Portland) could possibly all contribute not as just role players but as legitimate starters for a team. I think that says something as oppose to only deeming them a star if they're named to an All-Star game."

And in my first post, I began with saying, "I thought this was an interesting read."

Okay, again, where am I coming off speaking negatively against the foreign talent that exist today in the NBA? I'm asking you... Answer the question? Nowhere. Because I didn't say anything. Don't lump me in with your own one-sided perception of American basketball fans. Thank you, very much.

People need to stop with the labeling of Americans as feeling anti-international toward these players because I personally didn't say anything and tried to write my thoughts objectively like I normally do about the Celtics.
BadWolf
General Manager
Posts: 8,925
And1: 3,424
Joined: Jun 06, 2006

Re: "The dwindling international star" 

Post#11 » by BadWolf » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:17 am

I always thought the game in Europe is more about defense then offense. And fast paced scoring it definitively isn't.
GuyClinch
RealGM
Posts: 13,345
And1: 1,478
Joined: Jul 19, 2004

Re: "The dwindling international star" 

Post#12 » by GuyClinch » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:39 pm

I think the article is built on some truth.. Danny has been smart to pass on most of the foreigners coming out as they are not real impact players in the NBA. The NBA is slanted to favour athleticism and strength which (call me racist I don't care) favours players with ancestors from West Africa..
John Locke
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,957
And1: 38
Joined: Nov 28, 2004

Re: "The dwindling international star" 

Post#13 » by John Locke » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:08 pm

The thing is: there isn't a 'right-way' to play basketball, there are 100's of methods to acheive the same goal. And there isn't a mine of players somewhere in the world, ready for NBA Gm's to come and find them easily. There are good international players and there are good American players.

I think that over the last few years we do feel like there are more foreign players being brought in that fail. But the thing is, NBA GM's are always looking for the next XXX (The next Dirk, the next Jordan, the next Shaq). When Shaq was dominant, players like Olowakandi were taken early. When Jordan was the best, everyone kept looking for the next MJ. Now GM's have been looking for the next Dirk. So guys like Skita and Darko went early, because GM's are always looking for someone who resembles a star in the league. Hell, when Dwayne Wade had a big season Randy Foye went way to early. That's just what happens. And that's what Danny isn't about.
My father is a car dealer, and makes a lot of money selling and buying cars. He's very good at finding cheap cars, which he can sell for more money. And he says that his trick is, that he doesn't have anything in mind when he goes shopping. He isn't looking for any car in particular. Just a good buy. And that, IMO, is what Danny is about. He just finds the most talented player, no matter the position he plays, if he's a tweener or etc.
It has nothing to do with international players, it's about the market. Right now International players are sometimes taken to early, so Danny stays clear. If the market value of international players would drop, Danny would probably take a look.
jfs1000d
RealGM
Posts: 28,021
And1: 14,839
Joined: Jun 25, 2004

Re: "The dwindling international star" 

Post#14 » by jfs1000d » Tue Jul 1, 2008 3:48 am

Fencer reregistered wrote:
bonsaiflipflops wrote:

But here’s another possibility, which we saw first-hand in the NBA Finals. Most of these international players don’t play defense. (Andrei Kirilenko being the notable exception).


Hakeem, Dikembe, and Manu say Hi.

Typical Peter May -- well-written, rooted in vast experience, and very sloppily thought out nonetheless.


In fairness, he wasn't referring to international players who went to college in the US -- still, he should have thought it through and then defended his point a little better.


Problem is that NBA is taking 18 and 19 year olds euros.The ones they should be taking are 22 years old. It's too hard to predictthese guys at 18. Even harder than high school players.
GuyClinch
RealGM
Posts: 13,345
And1: 1,478
Joined: Jul 19, 2004

Re: "The dwindling international star" 

Post#15 » by GuyClinch » Tue Jul 1, 2008 3:54 am

Hakeem, Dikembe, and Manu say Hi.


Peter May just meant European players - which none of those guys are.. <g>

Return to Boston Celtics