a counter argument for playing the kids...

[buckner1976]

this is not gonna be a popular suggestion nor very likely to be honest but what about it? jr and bill have talent no doubt. paul and ray are gonna play at least 36 mpg again leaving 24 combined extra. what about jr and bill just splitting them? throw them into the deep end. i mean its like neither jr nor walker would be playing without one of the big 3 on the floor. quite possibly 2. doc says giddens could get time right away because of his defense. were not talking about starting them but playing them with most likely 2 of the big 3 at all times and they get to learn playing next to the best. why not speed up the learning curve here? my only thing would be bring in a vet pg behind rondo that knows how to control the offense like a carlos arroyo or someone like that.

just playing devils advocate here but this was a 66 win team. our 5 best players are all in the starting lineup and the 2 youngest of the 5 are expected to get better. why couldnt they help bring along a 23 yr old kid with some polish defensively and a younger wing with all world talent slowly but steadily throughout the season? might they sacrifice a few wins? maybe. but at the end of the season you now have 2 kids with great talent that are now that much better and now playing next to hall of fame players. again i wanna reiterate in no way do i expect this to happen but couldnt you make a case for them to try this considering they dont have to throw them into the starting lineup and theyll still be sheltered by the talent around them?

[buckner1976]

16 views and nobody has a single comment on the subject worth sharing. i find that amazing on this board.

[Pogue Mahone]

I would like a bench shooter with length but, other than that, I am right with you. I think the way you build depth is to play young players. The way you win is with front line starters and quality depth.

Sure, we lost against Indiana in 7 games four years ago (damn, it's been that long already) but we didn't lose because the youth wasn't contributing. We had rookies West, Allen and Jefferson with second year players Banks and Perkins all playing a role and contributing at different levels.

Next season we will have a dominant starting line-up, a sixth man type (Powe), likely a vetern PG with Scalabrine or a long shooter rounding out the shortened rotation. That is 8-deep. I swear that Boston fans are starting to sound like Toronto fans from a few years ago with the "Depth" mantra. Well, as of right now, we have adequate depth. Additionally, what we do have working in our favor is the ability to get better via development of players and/or the acquisition of another contributor on the cheap.

I am happy that people care and that people are wanting the team to succeed. That's great. It doesn't mean everyone should go all Chicken Little and piss in the soup of every other fan, though. For all the crap people on this board gave the PubaStank over the years, he has actually turned into one of the most rational Celtics fans I know. Perhaps some people should take a clue from the Aguila brothers.

So, yeah Buckner, I am fine with going with youth as depth. In fact, I am starting to think the best move is to parlay Ray's contract into bite size pieces. That contract hurts. But that is for another thread.

[buckner1976]

I would like a bench shooter with length but, other than that, I am right with you. I think the way you build depth is to play young players. The way you win is with front line starters and quality depth.

Sure, we lost against Indiana in 7 games four years ago (damn, it's been that long already) but we didn't lose because the youth wasn't contributing. We had rookies West, Allen and Jefferson with second year players Banks and Perkins all playing a role and contributing at different levels.

Next season we will have a dominant starting line-up, a sixth man type (Powe), likely a vetern PG with Scalabrine or a long shooter rounding out the shortened rotation. That is 8-deep. I swear that Boston fans are starting to sound like Toronto fans from a few years ago with the "Depth" mantra. Well, as of right now, we have adequate depth. Additionally, what we do have working in our favor is the ability to get better via development of players and/or the acquisition of another contributor on the cheap.

I am happy that people care and that people are wanting the team to succeed. That's great. It doesn't mean everyone should go all Chicken Little and piss in the soup of every other fan, though. For all the crap people on this board gave the PubaStank over the years, he has actually turned into one of the most rational Celtics fans I know. Perhaps some people should take a clue from the Aguila brothers.

So, yeah Buckner, I am fine with going with youth as depth. In fact, I am starting to think the best move is to parlay Ray's contract into bite size pieces. That contract hurts. But that is for another thread.

i agree with your points especially about the shooter thing. im kinda thinking if we resigned eddie he could be a part of a solid 3 man committee with pruitt and jr handling the 1 and 2 spot. sometimes pruitt and house can play if you wanna go quick with shooters or go house and jr or pruitt/jr if they want a more athletic look. plus keeping house keeps continuity. i think a bench of those 3 plus obryant, powe and bbd would be fine. a youngish look to be sure but definitely a group that now has the athletes to stay with the young pups like atlanta and washington now and still has a shooter to come off the bench that can spread the floor.

[Dogen]

I'd like to see our rooks get some burn right away because I think we got a couple of quality players who can contribute soon. And maybe POB, too, if he gets serious about his career. But your right, Buckner, it's not likely to happen. There is so much at stake for a championship team that has a chance to repeat. I expect Danny will be more conservative this year, but who knows--- he can be a gambler at times.

If the team resigns House and also finds a vet big and PG, I think that makes 14 players under contract. Maybe pick up one young prospect with a similar deal as we had last year with Brandan Wallace. That way we have a roster spot left open for a player during mid season when the team has a good idea about any weaknesseses on the roster and injuries.

When Posey signed with NO I was happy that we didn't get saddled with the long contract, but I really don't see any of the 'Posey replacements' out there as having the same qualities as James Posey. It may end up that Danny rolls the dice on JR Smith, but there are questions about the defense he didn't play in Enver. Tony Allen or JR GIddens might actually be the best Posey replacement we'll find.

[GuyClinch]

The best man should win the job. Always.. You don't promote youth over more qualified vets - but by the same token young players who outplay older guys should get time. Playing guys on merit not only improves the team but team morale as well.

Pete

[ParticleMan]

I COMPLETELY agree with the OP.

I can't believe all the pissing and moaning on this board about losing Posey. Where was Posey last offseason? His career was on life support. He took a 1 yr deal at 3mil with a player option. Does that sound like someone who would be a vital part of a championship team? No. But guess what, he was. You know why? Because he had SUPERSTARS around him.

Superstars make role players great. You think Bruce Bowen would be worth crap on some middling team? No way. But when he gets to play with Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli, suddenly he's invaluable. When you have superstars all the role players look better than they really are. We supposedly had one of the worst benches in the league at the start of last season, how did that work out? Just fine, thanks, because those journeymen bench players suddenly looked great when you put them next to PGA.

So yeah, I think we could plug in JR Giddens into Posey's role and not lose too much. If he has the kind of commitment to D and ability that Ainge and Doc seem to think, then we should be fine. Of course it'd have been better if we could have re-signed Posey, but we have to think long term. We want a dynasty here, not a one-off run like the Heat. We can still win a championship with young kids off our bench playing big mins.

From my viewpoint, I see Posey's role mostly being replaced by Powe. Posey actually spent the most mins at PF. I think Powe will be able to step in there, with Baby as the backup. For the SF part, we can use Giddens or else hopefully re-sign TA. I'm fine with that, and I still think we're championship material.

All the pissers and moaners seem to miss one key fact: We still have our starting 5 intact, including 3 allstars. That's what's going to win us games, not some 9th man.

[buckner1976]

I COMPLETELY agree with the OP.

I can't believe all the pissing and moaning on this board about losing Posey. Where was Posey last offseason? His career was on life support. He took a 1 yr deal at 3mil with a player option. Does that sound like someone who would be a vital part of a championship team? No. But guess what, he was. You know why? Because he had SUPERSTARS around him.

Superstars make role players great. You think Bruce Bowen would be worth crap on some middling team? No way. But when he gets to play with Duncan, Parker, and Ginobli, suddenly he's invaluable. When you have superstars all the role players look better than they really are. We supposedly had one of the worst benches in the league at the start of last season, how did that work out? Just fine, thanks, because those journeymen bench players suddenly looked great when you put them next to PGA.

So yeah, I think we could plug in JR Giddens into Posey's role and not lose too much. If he has the kind of commitment to D and ability that Ainge and Doc seem to think, then we should be fine. Of course it'd have been better if we could have re-signed Posey, but we have to think long term. We want a dynasty here, not a one-off run like the Heat. We can still win a championship with young kids off our bench playing big mins.

From my viewpoint, I see Posey's role mostly being replaced by Powe. Posey actually spent the most mins at PF. I think Powe will be able to step in there, with Baby as the backup. For the SF part, we can use Giddens or else hopefully re-sign TA. I'm fine with that, and I still think we're championship material.

All the pissers and moaners seem to miss one key fact: We still have our starting 5 intact, including 3 allstars. That's what's going to win us games, not some 9th man.

excellent points PM and a couple of things to keep in mind:

poseys role and minutes were gonna change this year anyway. doc spoke of wanting to be more athleic, we draft 2 super athletic wings, poseys ineffectiveness at the 4, powe and davis' likely improvement next year with experience, the signing of o bryant to back perk up. posey played over half his min at the 4 and thats not happening this upcoming year. if you assume paul and ray avg 36mpg again next year that leaves 24 min. now if one of them goes down to injury thats one thing but otherwise posey wasnt gonna see much more than 15mpg. i think the writing was on the wall about that.

just because of the experience last year we stand to improve our ballclub a ton internally considering the likely growth of all 4 of our returning young players that played last year. they all now have championship experience. gabe pruitt who learned from the bench stands to still make a contribution this year. and the 2 new athletes with a bunch of talent should soak up the bi 3 like a sponge. they couldnt have a better environment to start their careers in.

i mean maybe we still bring in another wing for insurance but im betting now anyone we bring in would be 1 yr vet minimums now.

[Rocky5000]

I agree with you buck, I'd like to resign TA as our other wing, and give all of Posey's minutes to the Rooks.

[Celtics_85]

You don't just give minutes to the rookies without them earning them. I agree with we need to bring TA back as a vital player on this team. Ray isn't the most durable guy anymore and is getting up there in age, and TA is poised to have a breakout year. He gives us what Posey did, but just not at PF where Powe and Davis will fill that bill.
I'm not all that against rookies getting playing time if they earn them. If this is the idea to help round out the wing minutes, then if healthy enough, why not bring in Darius Miles to compete with JR and Walker, as it couldn't hurt the situation if they have the talent. My belief is that JR could probably help this year, but Walker is probably a year away. He could essentially be what Pruitt was last year, going to the D-League for stints and also working wityh this team and the trainers when not there.

[SeizeCoup]

I think where Posey will really be missed is during the playoffs. He is so money when the intensity level is raised. I'd like to think that Powe could also fill that role, but I'm not convinced as of yet.

Otherwise, it's not so crazy to assume that somebody such as JR or TA is able to find a role on this team where they're a factor. Giddens especially imo.

Good mix of veterans and youthiers, push and pull as Tommy would say.

[ryaningf]

CalderCup has a good handle on what's happening.

Of the rookies, I think JR will help right away. He's as old as, or older than, Rondo, Perk, Baby and Pruitt. He actually spent 5 years in college (he sat out a year after transferring to New Mexico) and he should be able to step right in relatively soon. He'll still need to learn rotations and the offense, but hopefully by mid-November he's a vital cog. I expect him to get most of his minutes behind Paul Pierce, with some possible minutes at the 2. GIddens alone brings the athleticism we sorely lacked last season at the 2/3.

Bill Walker, on the other hand, is still very young. I still think there's a possibility he spends the year in Europe, though I'd personally rather him stay here and learn the Celtic way from Pierce, Allen, and KG. He has more upside than Giddens long term, but next season will be a struggle to get and stay healthy and to pick up the offense/defense. IF he's even on the team, I think he'll be NBDL bound for most of the year (unless we suffer injuries), and probably be next season's Gabe Pruitt. I just don't think he's going to play much.

Now, assuming we sign both Walker and Giddens, that's only going to leave us with 2 spots left, since I'm assuming the C's would prefer to start the season with a 14 man roster to allow for flexibility. To me, I think they bring TA back on a reasonable, multiyear contract, and then maybe either a veteran point guard on a minimum contract (it might be Cassell after it's all said and done) or bring in a 3/4 who can shoot the 3 ball. And that's it.

As far as hypothetical lineups, a Rondo/TA/Giddens at the 1/2/3 lineup has me giddy in terms of defensive pressure and athleticism.

[campybatman]

Do we know whether or not Walker will play in the NBA next season or go overseas? That remains unclear.

[ryaningf]

Bonsaiflipflops,

We won't know what happens with Walker until free agency has been sorted out. I expect both he and Giddens won't sign (or decide to go to Europe) until mid-August at the earliest.

[EJay33]

The fact remains that the team won last year with veterans in the lineup playing key roles. The only inexperienced players in the regular playoff rotation were Perkins and Rondo. Both played well at times, but both were inconsistent throughout the playoffs. PJ Brown, James Posey, and Eddie House provided a huge stabilizing presence throughout the playoffs.

Remember what happened when Boston had the youngest (or at least one of the youngest) average ages in the entire NBA? They got their butt handed to them almost every single night by veteran teams who were more physical and who knew how to play and win in the NBA. It is exciting when a kid grows up before your eyes like Rajon Rondo appears on the verge of doing, but lets be realistic. Not every late first round pick or 2nd rounder is going to develop into a star given the opportunity to play with all-stars. It helps, certainly, but it is still the exception. There is a lot to be said for vets in the NBA who know their role and are what they are. Celts wouldn't be 2008 Champs without Posey and PJ. Ask Houston, LA, or San Antonio about the difference a Robert Horry makes.

Hopefully, one or more of O'Bryant, Walker, Giddens, TA, Powe, and Baby can give Boston consistency and solid play when it matters. At this point it is just wishful thinking as opposed to the near sure-thing Posey and PJ were in those situations. In the long run these changes may pay dividends, but for right now and winning the championship in 2009 it is hard to argue that losing Posey and PJ is a good thing.

It's all in that balance. If the Celts win in "09 while developing kids then Danny looks great. If they fall short because the kids couldn't carry their weight, then we'll all be wishing he had rounded out the roster with vets rather than projects.

[GuyClinch]

The "kids" are just as much about cost savings as development. That's been Danny's trend over and over. He uses his eye for talent to find guys that can perform for less. With young players you might even end up with some good trading material.

House already used half the MLE. Could we have resigned him if we got Posey after all? I don't think so. TA is back. I look for one more CHEAP 3/4 tweener or big swingman to help us..that's it. Maybe it's Darius Miles. Maybe it's Quinton Ross - or even Ricky Davis. There are guys still out there.

7 and 4 production just wasnt worth 6 million a year.

Pete