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I had asked similar questions on the general board without a lot of responses so I was curious as to what Celtics fans think. If Bias had been a Celtic, there's a chance the Celtics finish with the 23rd pick instead in the 1987 draft. The Spurs drafted Greg Anderson with the Lakers' pick. Reggie Lewis was considered a steal for his draft number, so there's a chance he would have been drafted by the Spurs instead. Therefore, there's a chance they never would have had Lewis if Bias had played, so I'm not including Lewis in this discussion.
1. The Celtics thought they could win 70 games that season with both Walton and Bias. How many wins do you think the Celtics would have had with Len Bias and a healthy team during the 1986-1987 season?
2. How many Championships do you think Boston would have won during the Bird and Bias era? What about the Bulls, Lakers, and Pistons? The likely scenario is that Jordan does not retire, Horace Grant stays, and no trade for Rodman. Grant was a quality starter, but Rodman should have been a first ballot Hall of Famer. No Rodman makes 8 straight Championships much less likely, and it's safe to say 70 wins would have never happened.
3. What kind of numbers do you think Bias would have put up in his career?
4. Let's say Bird stays in his prime a few years longer like many thought. Where do Bias and Bird rank among the greatest duo's of all time? Better than Jordan and Pippen? Better than Russell and Cousy? Better than Baylor and West? Better than Magic and Kareem? Better than Kobe and Shaq?

This is a really loaded question, but as it pertains to Bias' statistical potential, I'll offer you this: Coach K of Duke (don't ask me to spell his name) said that in his lifetime, the two most talented players he's ever seen are Len Bias and Jordan (he's never indicated a 1 and 2 among them; they're always paired). He's been compared to Jordan by Michael Wilbon of ESPN's PTI (himself a Chicago native).

Unfortunately, I can't help you with the rest as Bias was before my time. But based on opinions I've read and what I've seen of him (the guy was built like a leaner LeBron IMO), he had once-in-a-lifetime talent.

The problem when speculating with Bias is that people are quick to criticize others opinions, citing his "mythical" projections as a by-product of an early death. I've never quite understood that train of thought myself...

You had me until Rodman should be a first ballot hall of famer...



I'd say the Lakers might have squeaked one in there, an the Bulls / Rockets could have won some after Bird's retirement, but we win at least 3 more titles IMO, and Bird/Bias would equal all those duos.

I don't recall a huge drumbeat for Bias's pro career while he was still in college, ala what Duncan or Yao or LeBron got later. But then, I don't recall one for Jordan either, or anybody else of that era except Ewing. And perhaps the only reason I recall one for Ewing is that I lived where he played high school ball (around here).

Anyhow, he was NOT picked first overall in the draft, and he was not a consensus future megastar the way LeBron and a few centers have been. So let's not make TOO many assumptions here.

It wasn't just Bias. McHale hurt his foot and Bird hurt his back and Walton's body did what it always does and so on.

Jordan wasn't drafted 1st either. There are a lot of dumb GMs in every decade. With Bias I think we win at least 3 more titles in the 80s and early 90s. He and MJ would've been the best matchup of the 90s.

Len Bias was off the charts athletically and a great basketball player. Surrounded by those great Celtics Bias would have been uncoverable. If you want proof get a tape of the Jordan VS Bias ACC final. I say with Bias the Celtics repeat in 87 and threepeat in 88. They may have had a run similar to the Celtics of the 60's.

chakdaddy wrote:You had me until Rodman should be a first ballot hall of famer...

.

Why shouldn't Rodman be a first ballot hall of famer? He was a dominate defender and rebounder. If he had been "normal", IMO everybody would think he was a first ballot guy.

Fencer reregistered wrote:I don't recall a huge drumbeat for Bias's pro career while he was still in college, ala what Duncan or Yao or LeBron got later. But then, I don't recall one for Jordan either, or anybody else of that era except Ewing. And perhaps the only reason I recall one for Ewing is that I lived where he played high school ball (around here).

Anyhow, he was NOT picked first overall in the draft, and he was not a consensus future megastar the way LeBron and a few centers have been. So let's not make TOO many assumptions here.

It wasn't just Bias. McHale hurt his foot and Bird hurt his back and Walton's body did what it always does and so on.

A lot of teams draft more for position than anything, so it doesn't mean much to me. I was too young to remember his games, but I'm basing it more on opinions in sites like you tube and quotes from some coaches. Many consider him the greatest college player of all time, so there was definitely huge potential. Bird said he'd be willing to go to training camp early to work with him, so he would have been working with a great mentor. Auerbach thought very highly of him, so that says a lot since he knew what he was doing. Ideally he would be one of the greats and Boston would have won several more Championships. Even if he has a very, very good career(let's say Karl Malone production) but not on caliber of a Bird or Magic, he still would have done a lot to help Boston. It depends on whether Lewis had been drafted or not. Put Bias and Lewis together on the 1991-1992 team even with Bird aging, I still feel they're capable of winning the Championship.

the greatest "what-if" of our Celtics generation imo. even above Reggie and Timmy

Rodman literally gave you nearly nothing offensively. I'm sorry, but the HoF is not reserved for guys who averaged like 8 PPG, even if he was a great defender and phenomenal rebounder. All craziness aside, he's in the Hall of Very Good, not the HoF.

Gomes3PC wrote:Rodman literally gave you nearly nothing offensively. I'm sorry, but the HoF is not reserved for guys who averaged like 8 PPG, even if he was a great defender and phenomenal rebounder. All craziness aside, he's in the Hall of Very Good, not the HoF.

Defense is a big part of the game- there are players in the HOF (Barkley comes to mind) that gave you absolutely nothing defensively.

Rodman was a great man defender on the perimeter and the post, unbelievably versatile, and a good help defender as well, particularly at rotating to help a teammate.

How many players in the history of the game have been able to effectively guard such a wide scope of players? And he didn't guard just anyone: Rodman, through his career, guarded the best players at each position, from shooting guard to center.

He guarded Jordan many times- I remember Doug Collins saying that the Pistons would put Joe Dumars on him in the first half and if that wasn't working, they'd put Rodman on him in the 2nd half, guarded Karl Malone a lot in the Finals, guarded Pippen, guarded Shaq a couple times, guarded Magic when he was with the Pistons, guarded Shawn Kemp.

And man, Rodman could get under the skin of these guys- Kemp, Shaq, Malone, Pippen- he was great at that.

Against the Knicks in 1990, Rodman guarded Kiki Vandeweghe, Johnny Newman, Kenny Walker, Gerald Wilkins, Charles Oakley, and even Patrick Ewing.

That same year, earlier, in February, with five minutes left to go in the Pistons game against the Knicks in Madison Square Garden, Rodman asked Chuck Daly, the coach, if he could guard Ewing- he did- and held Ewing to only 2 points in the closing 5 minutes: that's the kind of defensive monster Rodman was.

Daly said that Rodman was the most valuable player on that Piston team because of his ability to watch tape and see a player's weaknesses then go out the next day and guard that player.

So, yeah with that defense, and being arguably the greatest rebounder of all time, especially offensive rebounding (he's the GOAT at rebound rate) I think it's a travesty that Dennis Rodman is not in the HOF.

And the HOF naturally looks at accomplishments and seems to like "winners":

10 All-Defensive Selections, 7 1st Team, 2 time consecutive DPOY, and he finished Top 15 in MVP voting four times, as high as tenth.

And he was a 5 time NBA champion.

For comparison point, Pierce has also finished Top 15 in MVP voting 4 times, as high as eleventh.

So, yeah Rodman had problems, but don't let that fool you- he was a HOF player, and for so many players that just play offense, it was refreshing to see one who focused so intently on defense.

Fact #1:
By all accounts Len Bias was a hugely talented collegiate player. However...
Fact #2:
He never played in the NBA. He was not a Celtic. Maybe he would have been another high draft pick bust. We don't know. What makes that a very real possibility?
Fact #3:
Len Bias was a habitual cocaine user. This was certainly reckless and doesn't bode well.

Would drugs have ruined the NBA career of Len Bias? Maybe. Maybe not. But look what alcohol did to Vin Baker - a player we KNOW had high level NBA skills. Would you hire someone if you knew he had a drug or alcohol problem? You'd be wise to be wary and for good reason.

Anyway, instead of dreaming about what might have been, I prefer to think about the humiliation and exposure of Kobe Bryant in last year's NBA finals. ("Best player on the planet" - ha!) That's the present. Had Len Bias not died from his recreactional drug use, we probably don't get Paul Pierce and June 2008 would not have been so great.

I have 12-15 Bias' games. I think a have a good idea of his game.

I've seen him shutting David Robinson down when he was devastating Maryland (what a game!). Not to mention his touch, athleticism and so on.

We'll never know, but we have any right to consider him the next big thing.

I've often thought that the injuries suffered in 1987 would not have happened, or would have been less severe if Bias had been able to be a productive member of that years rotation. That alone, would have put the C's over the top in 1987, IMO.

I would say the number of additional championships would have been at least one.. after that, who knows... they would certainly have been upper echelon from 87-92.

greenbeans wrote:the greatest "what-if" of our Celtics generation imo. even above Reggie and Timmy

Id say the greatest " what-if " in NBA history. When a guy had as much potential as Bias did, people are saying he was a bigger, stronger and a more advanced Jordan. He could do it all he had a great jumpshot, could put it on the floor, he could defend, he was one of the best shot blockers in the country and he just got better and better every year.