Are they declining?

[Al-Haqq]

I'm wondering on what your thoughts are on people who suggest that Kevin Garnett looked a step slower, as did Ray Allen and Paul Pierce.

To me, to suggest they're declining is strange, considering that KG won DP of the year and Paul Pierce played his best season as a pro. Ray Allen was good too and showed defensive abilities worthy of praise.

Have they slowed down already? If not, when do you guys think they will?

[PPAW4Life]

No they're not.

They are playing with better teammates and playing less.

#'s maybe down but efficiency/effort is very good and steady.

[cavsfan_osiris]

They are all older so you would expect some slow down. Forming these guys like Voltron was the best thing that happened to each of them. I think having this group together with a nice young core around them will prolong their careers.

[GuyClinch]

They are still at the age where they can add a little something to their games and conditioning and thus not really decline..

Pete

[celticfan42487]

Ray Allen used to be able to dribble a little bit or at least put on a bit of a body fake. Hell he could even dunk without much difficulty.

Pierce and KG looked the same to me. KG didn't seem as dominating because of the lesser minutes and team role. But only Ray Allen defentily looked like he has lost parts of him game. He used to be an all-star solely because of his first option offensive capabilities. Now he needs to be that third banana for a team to be great.

[s1ickd]

i saw kg's stamina take a tiny hit toward the end of games, but not enough so a casual observer would notice.

pierce is the same pierce, i didn't see any physical decline.

ray allen was just lost on offense some of the time, but that has nothing to do with his age

[SonicYouth34]

No way, they all still played great. You have to remember, that they played like 100 games last year by the time they got to the finals. Considering the end result, I think they're fine.

[captain_cheapseats]

Ray and KG have both certainly declined, but I think Pierce has actually improved. He's definitely slower and less athletic than he used to be, but has improved his shooting, become a better ball handler, and gotten stronger.

[crm0922]

KG declined? Seriously? I mean, yes he's a little bigger so a bit slower, but that doesn't seem a like a decline to me. Kobe isn't nearly the athlete he was when he was 18, do we say he is on the decline? I'd say KG and Kobe are about the same on their "decline" scale.

Pierce has clearly declined from a couple years ago, but this seems expected for someone with his body type. He's definitely seemed less athletic than when he was young, But since he has such a solid all-around game, he'll continue to be a top player in the league despite some athletic dropoff.

So no, I don't see any major dropoff a la Shaq coming for any of the 3 imminently...

C

[cloverleaf]

Saw the heading on this thread and I thought it was about the Pats--after they looked so lost last night.

[NashtyNas]

NOT AT ALL. Only guy that MAY have declined a BIT would be Ray, and I wouldn't say by much. NOPE.

[GuyClinch]

Of course by the pure numbers (speed, strength) they have declined some. But that's more then counteracted by the wisdom and skill they have picked up thus far.. Eventually the physical decline becomes so great that it cant' be overcome. But the decline from 25 to 31 isn't more then 3 or 4%..

Pete

[drza]

Agree with the gist of Pete's last post. Allen may have declined a bit, because the physical decline seems to have passed the experience gain in his case. Both KG and Pierce are still near their peak, just in different ways. Neither has the energy and stamina to go out there alone and will their team for 80+ games like they did in their mid-20s. But both know the game much better, know when to pace themselves and when to floor it, and (especially KG) can still red-line the athleticism when need be. On a team like this, the experience is probably better than the athleticism would have been.

And in Garnett's case, the physical "decline" has really been more of a conversion from 7-0/220 pound SF/PF hybrid to 7-1/250 pound true PF. For every half-step he loses in athleticism, he seems to gain a bit of muscle that allows him to hold his position on the blocks better. So I'm not really sure that he won't maintain this physical level well into his late 30s, as he could end up being just as effective as a 260-pound PF/C hybrid later in his career that is still more athletic than most centers.

[ryaningf]

Obviously, from a physical standpoint, all three have declined to some degree, so yes, in response to the question of this thread, they are declining in that respect. But as most know, physical tools are not as important as they are made out to be. As each player's physical skills have declined, they have become smarter and more mentally tough individuals. The experience gained has offset the slight decline of physical skills; each player now makes fewer spectacular plays with the ball, but each in their own way has increased their efficiency and consistency, using their energy more wisely, taking better angles, managing injuries and their bodies in ways they never would have considered when they were younger.

But at a certain point, all the wisdom in the world cannot overcome declining physical skills. If I had to guess, I'd think Ray's the likeliest to decline below All-Star level in the next 2 years, mainly because he's the oldest and plays a physically taxing position. Ray also keeps himself in excellent physical condition, so I don't think this decline will be as precipitous as some other player's declines have been, such as Mitch Richmond for example. But next season may be his last All-Star level season...

For Pierce and KG, I think they'll have a unique chance to extend their All-Star years a little further than typical small and power forwards. For Pierce, his game was never predicated on athleticism and I agree with others who say that last season may have been his best. His game is built on angles and proper footwork; his physicality isn't used to get by you, it's used to keep you off him once good footwork and proper angles have gotten him by you. As Tommy has said countless times, once Paul gets you on his hip, you can't stop him. He has a great amount of strength combined with a great fundamentals and I think these skills are more resistant to aging and will allow Pierce to play more of a power 3 or power forward role once his lateral quickness and foot speed degrade to levels that would make him a liability at 2-guard. He should have at least 4 season of near All-Star level, assuming major injuries don't happen.

KG, too, has such a unique game that I think he'll be able to adjust his game as he ages and be able to keep at near All-Star level for at least 4 more seasons. As he ages, his defense should remain stable, since defense is about effort and KG will always be alright in that department. On the offensive end, he'll probably continue to slide further to the perimeter. I tend to view this as less troublesome than others, since it preserves his otherwise thin frame and isn't that big of a deal on the team efficacy level, since a good mix between jump shooting and dribble penetration is ideal. Instead of discouraging him from jump shooting as he ages, I'd suggest that he work on perfecting his 3 point shot, giving him another weapon from the outside. He did shot 3s when he was a younger player, and as he ages, it would be a good idea to revisit that part of his game, which would be as indefensible as the 15 footer he has perfected.

On the whole, I think the 3 are ahead of the physical decline/experience gained curve at least 2 more seasons, assuming no major injuries. After that, we'll need to make adjustments, either moving Ray for another Big 3-type talent, or hopefully giving more responsibility to Rondo/Powe/Giddens/Bill Walker in the hopes they develop into that kind of talent while using Ray/PP/KG as transitional veteran leadership.

[cavsfan_osiris]

Ray and KG have both certainly declined, but I think Pierce has actually improved. He's definitely slower and less athletic than he used to be, but has improved his shooting, become a better ball handler, and gotten stronger.

And PP was much better defensively

[GuyClinch]

But at a certain point, all the wisdom in the world cannot overcome declining physical skills. If I had to guess, I'd think Ray's the likeliest to decline below All-Star level in the next 2 years, mainly because he's the oldest and plays a physically taxing position. Ray also keeps himself in excellent physical condition, so I don't think this decline will be as precipitous as some other player's declines have been, such as Mitch Richmond for example. But next season may be his last All-Star level season...

I agree. But FWIW I think too little is made of injury decline - and too much made of physical decline. Speaking from experience as granted amateur athlete without injury the physical decline in the 30's is not really noticeable..

These NBA guys though they suffer from physical injuries because they play such a brutal game - this in combination with declining conditioning gets chalked up to "decline". A great example of an "old" young player is Raef Lafrenz. Who a couple of years ago - though still in his twenties appeared to be in "decline." In reality a ton of injuries had robbed him of his athleticism. Had he stayed healthy he would have still been a good player..

People that can avoid injuries can play at a very high level to a relatively advanced age. The flipside is that injury prone players can seemingly age in their mid twenties!

Pete

[celticfan42487]

I don't think Pierce improved at all. He stayed about the same. He's always come up big defensively and offensively in the playoffs before.

[captain_cheapseats]

But FWIW I think too little is made of injury decline - and too much made of physical decline.

I agree with this. I actually think Ray's decline has had a lot more to do with injury than age.....he actually appeared to be geting better as he entered his 30s until he had the ankle issues at the end of his career in Seattle.

As for KG, people have made some good points, but I still think he's declining. He may be getting wiser, but at the end of the day he's simply not as good as he was in his prime ('02-'04) anymore. That means that, yes, he's declined. The good news is that he hasn't declined all that much (gone from arguably the best player in the NBA to a top five guy), and certainly not enough to hurt his value to the Celtics. I also think he's at least 3 years away from a big drop-off.

[Truthiracy]

WE NEED TO BLOW THIS TEAM UP ASAP, it is the only way

Come on now.. seriously.

[GreenGrizz]

Maybe Doc didn't want players to play hard and wear themsevles out.