RealGM

Someone brought this up in another thread, about how right now it seems RR is a top three talent in the 06 draft. I am starting to agree with this. It blows my mind we traded for this guy at pick 21 and he could be the best player to come out that year. Also I was on nbadraft.net and noticed they compared Rondo to Mookie Blaylock, now I am a little to young 27 to remember Mookies prime, but what I do remember is a gritty, hustling floor general. Is this comparison warrented?

Don't forget we got Powe too, who's easily top 15. Danny is the man with drafting. He grabbed Big Al, Ryan Gomes, Tony Allen, Delonte West and Glen Davis all with late picks. Danny knows what he doing, unlike most GM's....

Danny is definitely the man for the position and the time. He's really very, very good--and the best, at this time, of the former C's in management. For us older fans, who would have imagined it 20 years ago?

SonicYouth34 wrote:Don't forget we got Powe too, who's easily top 15. Danny is the man with drafting. He grabbed Big Al, Ryan Gomes, Tony Allen, Delonte West and Glen Davis all with late picks. Danny knows what he doing, unlike most GM's....

I give Danny all the credit in the world and admire him a great deal, but let's be fair. Danny has been terrific when he got to pick among those who slipped, but he does not have a stellar record when he had lottery picks. For example in 2006, he elected to trade for Sebastian Telfair instead of taking one of Rudy Gay or Brandon Roy. Sure, we came away with Rondo at 21 and one can argue that shedding LaFrentz in that deal ultimately helped us get Ray and then KG, but I don't think Danny was thinking that he was going to get those two by acquiring Telfair and losing LaFrentz at the time. It was a pretty decent move financially, but since KG was only a pipe dream back then, I don't think any of us would be too depressed by now if we were trotting out the core of Rondo-Roy/Gay-PP-Al Jefferson.

In 2007, Danny had targeted Yi at #5 before trading for Ray Allen. In hindsight, taking Yi at 5 would've been a disaster because Thad Young and Rodney Stuckey would've been much better picks.

All in all, everything turned out for the best, so I'm not complaining.

I think Danny definitely took a gamble on Telfair but he did it because he knew that swapping Ratliff for LaFrenz was the key move. He knew he had to put a winner on the floor in 2007-8 and that he had to make his move.

So although it looks like he got burned in the Roy for Telfair deal, Telfair and Ratliff were keys to getting Garnett and would have been keys to getting somebody else instead had that deal not worked out.

Every GM looks bad in just about every draft. Portland looks really good right now but if you nitpick you can find players that they "should" have taken instead. When you look at the body of his work, Danny has drafted exceptionally well.

And if you listen to him talk about the best players in the draft you can tell he knows how to recognize talent. He would have drafted Chris Paul #1 in 2005 and he was outspoken in his praise for him prior to that draft. To think that the predraft experts had Chris Paul ranked #4 and Gerald Green at #5 ("but will be the best in the draft in 5 years") still amazes me.

Big Baby wrote:

SonicYouth34 wrote:Don't forget we got Powe too, who's easily top 15. Danny is the man with drafting. He grabbed Big Al, Ryan Gomes, Tony Allen, Delonte West and Glen Davis all with late picks. Danny knows what he doing, unlike most GM's....

I give Danny all the credit in the world and admire him a great deal, but let's be fair. Danny has been terrific when he got to pick among those who slipped, but he does not have a stellar record when he had lottery picks. For example in 2006, he elected to trade for Sebastian Telfair instead of taking one of Rudy Gay or Brandon Roy. Sure, we came away with Rondo at 21 and one can argue that shedding LaFrentz in that deal ultimately helped us get Ray and then KG, but I don't think Danny was thinking that he was going to get those two by acquiring Telfair and losing LaFrentz at the time. It was a pretty decent move financially, but since KG was only a pipe dream back then, I don't think any of us would be too depressed by now if we were trotting out the core of Rondo-Roy/Gay-PP-Al Jefferson.

In 2007, Danny had targeted Yi at #5 before trading for Ray Allen. In hindsight, taking Yi at 5 would've been a disaster because Thad Young and Rodney Stuckey would've been much better picks.

All in all, everything turned out for the best, so I'm not complaining.

Bad argument. Just because a GM doesn't walk away with the best player available at his draft spot EVERY TIME doesn't mean he's not the best drafter in the NBA. No GM does that. The point is, I don't think anyone in the NBA has a better track record in the last 4 years of drafting guys who end up much higher value than their draft slot. They may not be the very best pick available, but the consistency of getting good value is what separates Ainge from other GMs.

As for the Telfair trade, I think you're mistaken if you think Ainge didn't have in mind EXACTLY the scenario that played out. Not necessarily KG in particular, but every year some big-name player comes on the market, and he knew that he needed a big-name player alonside Pierce. He foresaw that last offseason was when all the stars were getting aligned. He would have a good stable of young players with upside to trade. He would have a nice collection of draft picks to sweeten the pot. All he needed was the large expiring contract for CBA purposes. It wouldn't have done any good to have 2 of the 3 (which is what the Bulls had, for instance). He had to have all 3, or he couldn't close a deal. So in the larger scheme, Ratliff was hugely important. And Telfair, although he imploded a bit here off the court, still provided some positive value in the KG trade because after all the kid is talented, and talent forgives a lot of indiscretions in the NBA.

It still wasn't a good trade - even if you want to shave a year off Raef's contract by turning him into Theo, you don't trade Brandon Roy/Rudy Gay to do it. And it wasn't even a matter of turning a 2 yrs remaining into an expiring; at the time it was turning a 3 years remaining into 2 years remaining. A lottery pick isn't the going rate for that.

sam_I_am wrote:I think Danny definitely took a gamble on Telfair but he did it because he knew that swapping Ratliff for LaFrenz was the key move. He knew he had to put a winner on the floor in 2007-8 and that he had to make his move.

So although it looks like he got burned in the Roy for Telfair deal, Telfair and Ratliff were keys to getting Garnett and would have been keys to getting somebody else instead had that deal not worked out.

I disagree. Substitute Raef and Roy for Telfair and Ratliff and the deal is better for Minnesota.
Minnesota would have not had a problem with a package of Rookie of the Year Brandon Roy, Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes, 2 draft picks and Raef for KG. The additional Raef salary is made up by Roy being much better than Telfair, which Portland foresaw and therefore made the deal.
On draft night, there were doubts about how good Roy would be, but after Roy's rookie year, at the time of the KG deal, he was already on the path to stardom.

Continuing on with the hypothetical Roy in Boston, Roy would have looked better in Boston, because with Tony and Pierce out, he would have instantly became the man and maybe his play is good enough to put us in Portland's lotto spot, and we get Oden or Durant. There is little doubt in my mind that Ainge wanted a top 2 pick. When we lost the lotto, Plan B went in to effect, which happened to work out quite well.

Perhaps Roy would've been enough of a sweetener for Minny to swallow Raef's deal, but if they did, then they'd be over the tax this coming year, making Raef's 12 mil more like (I'm guestimating) 18 and they also would lose out on the tax rebate to teams under the threshold. That's serious money, especially when they're already developing Foye.

I think playing with the big three helps him out a lot but he still looks like he could be a special player and is going to be a great starting PG for us.

Id say
#1 Roy
#2 Aldridge
#3 Gay
#4 Rondo

The verdict is still out on Foye/Morrison/Bargnani/Obryant /Redick but the only one in my mind who has a shot at being better than Rondo is Foye

floyd wrote:Perhaps Roy would've been enough of a sweetener for Minny to swallow Raef's deal, but if they did, then they'd be over the tax this coming year, making Raef's 12 mil more like (I'm guestimating) 18 and they also would lose out on the tax rebate to teams under the threshold. That's serious money, especially when they're already developing Foye.

Foye is being developed as a PG for Minnesota, so there's no fight for minutes between the 2, like there is with Telfair and Foye. They might take a hit this year, but their future would look very bright with a lot of upcoming capspace. There's a lot of what-ifs in the scenario - Minnesota also bought out Ratliff, and they may have done the same with Raef, or flipped him to Memphis, like they did with Toine, making the tax concerns a no-issue. I don't think many GMs with a disgruntled star, pass up the shot to get Big Al, and Brandon Roy.

The truth is if we had drafted Roy, we would have never made the Ray trade or the KG trade. However, it wasn't a cunning move from Danny in this case, it was more dumb luck. At the time of last year's draft we'd be feeling pretty good about a Rondo Roy Pierce Jefferson Perkins lineup, and we'd have had a pick other than 5. Who knows if we would have traded it? Maybe we grab a big to upgrade the center position, like Oden, or we trade it for someone like Camby. We almost certainly wouldn't have made the Ray Allen trade with Roy at the SG position, but we'd have tried to move Szczerbiak, and Ratliff for some players.(Gasol?) Since Ray was key to attracting KG, that trade never happens, KG vetoes it. If we had grabbed Durant, Pierce would have been traded. So if Danny does the right thing by picking Roy, our team is totally different, instead of nba champions, we are a young up and comer, perhaps with Paul as our leader. I guess my conclusion is, The butterfly effect of the Roy trade, led to a better situation, even though we lost the trade.

Rocky5000 wrote:

floyd wrote:Perhaps Roy would've been enough of a sweetener for Minny to swallow Raef's deal, but if they did, then they'd be over the tax this coming year, making Raef's 12 mil more like (I'm guestimating) 18 and they also would lose out on the tax rebate to teams under the threshold. That's serious money, especially when they're already developing Foye.

Foye is being developed as a PG for Minnesota, so there's no fight for minutes between the 2, like there is with Telfair and Foye. They might take a hit this year, but their future would look very bright with a lot of upcoming capspace. There's a lot of what-ifs in the scenario - Minnesota also bought out Ratliff, and they may have done the same with Raef, or flipped him to Memphis, like they did with Toine, making the tax concerns a no-issue. I don't think many GMs with a disgruntled star, pass up the shot to get Big Al, and Brandon Roy.

The truth is if we had drafted Roy, we would have never made the Ray trade or the KG trade. However, it wasn't a cunning move from Danny in this case, it was more dumb luck. At the time of last year's draft we'd be feeling pretty good about a Rondo Roy Pierce Jefferson Perkins lineup, and we'd have had a pick other than 5. Who knows if we would have traded it? Maybe we grab a big to upgrade the center position, like Oden, or we trade it for someone like Camby. We almost certainly wouldn't have made the Ray Allen trade with Roy at the SG position, but we'd have tried to move Szczerbiak, and Ratliff for some players.(Gasol?) Since Ray was key to attracting KG, that trade never happens, KG vetoes it. If we had grabbed Durant, Pierce would have been traded. So if Danny does the right thing by picking Roy, our team is totally different, instead of nba champions, we are a young up and comer, perhaps with Paul as our leader. I guess my conclusion is, The butterfly effect of the Roy trade, led to a better situation, even though we lost the trade.

Eh, I dont like looking at it that way, if Pierce never got hurt we might not have ever got the #5 pick which would lead to no Ray which would lead to no championship. We just got lucky and had a lot of good moves by DA as well as a few bad ones like the Bassy trade.

id compare rajon more to a really young gary payton than mookie.

Mookie was really good shooter and scorer.

I'd say RR is one of a kind...he's gifted defensively, great rebounder at his size/position, can penetrate and with more work on his shot he will be an offensive force to be reckoned with.

chakdaddy wrote:It still wasn't a good trade - even if you want to shave a year off Raef's contract by turning him into Theo, you don't trade Brandon Roy/Rudy Gay to do it. And it wasn't even a matter of turning a 2 yrs remaining into an expiring; at the time it was turning a 3 years remaining into 2 years remaining. A lottery pick isn't the going rate for that.

well i agree with that. it wasn't a good trade. but it was a trade that was made with a purpose. and since that purpose was fulfilled, at least it was a trade with a plan. i don't think we can complain too much about how it worked out.

ParticleMan wrote:

chakdaddy wrote:It still wasn't a good trade - even if you want to shave a year off Raef's contract by turning him into Theo, you don't trade Brandon Roy/Rudy Gay to do it. And it wasn't even a matter of turning a 2 yrs remaining into an expiring; at the time it was turning a 3 years remaining into 2 years remaining. A lottery pick isn't the going rate for that.

well i agree with that. it wasn't a good trade. but it was a trade that was made with a purpose. and since that purpose was fulfilled, at least it was a trade with a plan. i don't think we can complain too much about how it worked out.

It could be worse- we could have Chris Wallace around, indiscriminately trading away any and all big men for an infinite supply of PGs.

I think we'd be well past what if talks on this board from the 2006 and 2007 draft considering how things worked out.

I desperately wanted the Celtics to get four players out of the 2006 draft and we ended up getting two of them in Rajon Rondo and Leon Powe granted they were in fact 3rd and 4th on my wishlist at the time behind Brandon Roy and Rudy Gay.

I thought heading into that draft that Brandon Roy was extremely close to what Paul Pierce was when he came out of Kansas just as a natural SG instead of a natural SF.

I thought Rudy Gay was extremly compareable to Vince Carter when he came out of UNC as well and felt he'd have been great here as well.

I have long felt Rajon Rondo was a freaking clone of Mo Cheeks and still believe that to be the case and i'm still a little shocked not only that we were able to deal for him but in how far he fell in a pretty questionable draft class.

Leon Powe was a guy who I had watched play a few times during his senior year of high school and again in his last year at Cal and was sure that if he could stay healthy he could be a poor mans Larry Johnson before the back injury with everything but the passing skills that LJ had.

not to say rondo is equivalent to the combination of these two players, but his skill set makes me think of somewhere between jkidd and the glove

Now, I am a very strong believer in Powe. I even think that he has starter-type skillset and I hope that he does stay with the Celtics for a long time. However, let's not forget that Larry Johnson was a freak of an athlete when he came in the league. And in his rookie year he avg 19.2 points and 11 rebs shooting 49% from the field and 83% from the line. Larry Johnson was a superstar in the making. So lets not get ahead of ourselves with Powe.

For instance his numbers are more similar to Gary Trents, another strong, athletic yet undersized power forward.

I remember Larry Johnson quite well and his 19 PPG, 11 RPG, 3 APG and 22 PPG, 10 RPG, 4 APG were also a product of playing a ton of minutes for a recent expansion team.

I'm not knocking Larry Johnson here as calling Leon Powe a poor mans per back injury Larry Johnson is a nice compliment although he clearly lacks LJ's ball handling, court vision and passing skills.

I was in fact a fan of the Hornets and really thought that Kendall Gill, Larry Johnson and Alonzo Mourning were going to set the world on fire before that all fell apart with Kendall going nuts and LJ getting hurt.

I do mean it though as Leon Powe is outside of the ball handling skills is very much like LJ its just important to note that before LJ hurt his back it was really his ball handling skills that really set him apart from the likes of a Clearence Weatherspoon.

Its also why Larry Johnson remained a very good player even after the back injury took away much of the athletic ability and explosion which had allowed him to match up with PF's who had 3-6 inches on him.

Its Leon Powe's lack of ball handling and court vision not his lack of height that really limit Leon Powe to being a back up.