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Dowe for Powe

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Dowe for Powe 

Post#1 » by FakeScreenName123 » Tue Nov 4, 2008 5:52 pm

How much $$$ is it going to take to lock up this guy for a multi year deal after this year?


do we have an MLE this summer? How big was Maxiells contract? Could they base it similar to that? Maybe a little less.


4 years for 12 mil? can we do that? should we do that?


I think Powe is absolutely vital for this team. He's exactly the type of player that thrives in a bench role on a championship team and he is only going to get more savvy as he matures.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#2 » by GYBE » Tue Nov 4, 2008 6:13 pm

4/12 is unrealistic for a guy who's clearly the second best big man on a championship contender.

I don't know what it will take, but I'd like it done ASAP. His minutes and production are only going to increase, as will his salary expectations.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#3 » by FakeScreenName123 » Tue Nov 4, 2008 6:21 pm

GYBE wrote:4/12 is unrealistic for a guy who's clearly the second best big man on a championship contender.

I don't know what it will take, but I'd like it done ASAP. His minutes and production are only going to increase, as will his salary expectations.



Perk says hi.


Perk makes about 4 mil a year. That's pretty cheap for a starting center in this league.

So Powe is a full MLE player? is that what you are saying?
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#4 » by Egregious Blunder » Tue Nov 4, 2008 6:26 pm

Powe is about on par with Perk as far as talent, and Powe's ceiling is WAY higher than Perk.
my guess is he gets a 4/20 deal (in the neighborhood)

LAL, LAC, and GS would definitely offer him full MLE.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#5 » by celtics543 » Tue Nov 4, 2008 6:36 pm

How can you say that Powe's ceiling is higher than Perk's? I'm pretty sure that Perk is actually younger than Leon, and has better size. Don't get me wrong, Leon's great, but I think he's pretty much hit his peak.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#6 » by GYBE » Tue Nov 4, 2008 6:41 pm

FakeScreenName123 wrote:Perk says hi.


Perk makes about 4 mil a year. That's pretty cheap for a starting center in this league.

So Powe is a full MLE player? is that what you are saying?


Powe is a lot more valuable than Perk, even with the height difference. Powe has an ever improving offensive game. If Ray doesn't improve, Powe may essentially be our 3rd offensive option. On a per-minute basis, he's been incredibly productive. On the other hand, Perk's not getting any better because of his complete lack of a scoring touch. Plus, his deal was a bargain that is unlikely to be duplicated.

I'd have no problem giving Powe the full MLE.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#7 » by sully00 » Tue Nov 4, 2008 6:45 pm

Leon will have full Bird Rights this summer the MLE is not a factor. While I agree that Powe is nice piece on a championship team I have my reservations about a long term commitment to him. For two reasons one financial, I simply would like to see this team have the option to clear all their contracts and outside of KG. PP, and Perk see what is out there in FA. The second is Leon a player you want to rebuild with if the window closes after next season.

As for money three contracts were signed by similar players this off season under different circumstances.

GS signed Ronny Turiaf to a front loaded 4 year 17 mil offer sheet.

Unable to secure an offer sheet Carl Landry took 3 years and 9 mil from the Rockets over a minimal QO.

Recently Jason Maxiel was extended by the Pistons for 4 years 20 mil, he had the leverage of being a first rounder with a cap hold in the same neighborhood of his salary.

I think Maxiel's money is too much for Boston to put into Leon though he may well get that on the open market. I think Maxiel's draft status as a first rounder and DET's decision to move McDyess made locking him up a priority.

Leon will be in the situation that Landry and Turiaf were in as far as having minimal QO offers and being restricted FA's. I would expect they would love for Leon to either take the QO or take that 3 years and 9 mil cap space be damned and would think that Turiaf's money roughly 4 mil a year would be the tilting point.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#8 » by billfromBoston » Tue Nov 4, 2008 6:55 pm

I 100% think that Leon is a player to build around long-term...if he played 34-36 minutes per night he'd be averaging 18/10 and providing a true low-post presence on offense that would, (and already starting to) command double-teams...

Whether the team offers him market-value will of course depend on their financial planning in relation to their roster-building goals going forward - but I wouldn't be surprised if he rates highly in the teams plans - they won't cost themselves a shot at Wade or some other high-end FA, but they've clearly shown a commitment to him and his production is FAR, FAR, FAR from being run-of-the-mill...as "Pogue" for a breakdown of his statistical production in a historical context - not easy to duplicate..
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#9 » by sully00 » Tue Nov 4, 2008 7:04 pm

Egregious Blunder wrote:Powe is about on par with Perk as far as talent, and Powe's ceiling is WAY higher than Perk.
my guess is he gets a 4/20 deal (in the neighborhood)

LAL, LAC, and GS would definitely offer him full MLE.


Yeah this out of whack. Leon is not an NBA starter for 80% of the teams in the league, the reverse is probably true of Perkins. Two of the teams you listed have long tern commitments to undersized back up PFs already. That is the rub. He needs a team that has a gaping need at undersized PF with money to put into it and then willing to tie it up in an offer sheet.

I don't like the Maxiel deal but DET may envision him as a starter and this will be his 3rd season as a rotation player on an NBA contender and those aspects have value. But the money and the years seem high for the player. Leon is not a starter in BOS as long as #5 is here so his value is between Perk and Tony Allen based on the player he is now.

Of course if Leon is pushing a double double at the end of the year and an effective tandem with KG that is another story.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#10 » by sully00 » Tue Nov 4, 2008 7:10 pm

BFB

If McDyess is here in 5 days who would get the mins?
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#11 » by GYBE » Tue Nov 4, 2008 7:14 pm

sully00 wrote:Yeah this out of whack. Leon is not an NBA starter for 80% of the teams in the league, the reverse is probably true of Perkins.


What the deuce. Am I reading this wrong, or are you saying Perkins could start for 80% of the league?

He needs a team that has a gaping need at undersized PF with money to put into it and then willing to tie it up in an offer sheet.


I agree with this actually. A lack of suitors may force him to sign for a below-market rate.

Leon is not a starter in BOS as long as #5 is here so his value is between Perk and Tony Allen based on the player he is now.
[/quote]

Yet he's our 4th best player in my estimation (yes, I'm writing off Ray). It sucks neither KG or Powe are natural centers, but they're going to need to play together often just to get our best guys on the floor.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#12 » by BillessuR6 » Tue Nov 4, 2008 7:17 pm

Leon is a nice player but obviously Perk is much more vital for this team. I think 3-4 million per year for 3 years is a realistic value for him.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#13 » by Cyclical » Tue Nov 4, 2008 7:19 pm

Wow, again with the undervaluing of Perk. Powe is absolutely not more valuable than Perk. Powe's ceiling is absolutely not "way higher" than Perk. Do you realize how hard it is to find a good, young, strong defensive true center who can work well with KG's game? Did you forget how teams ate us up inside when Perk wasn't playing last season? His lack of an offensive arsenal should not be what you judge him by.

I love Powe. He is agressive, tough and has a solid post game. However, his defense lacks and he's a black hole in the paint. A great guy to bring off the bench. He is not a starting PF on a winning team in this league.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#14 » by FakeScreenName123 » Tue Nov 4, 2008 7:50 pm

Cyclical wrote:Wow, again with the undervaluing of Perk. Powe is absolutely not more valuable than Perk. Powe's ceiling is absolutely not "way higher" than Perk. Do you realize how hard it is to find a good, young, strong defensive true center who can work well with KG's game? Did you forget how teams ate us up inside when Perk wasn't playing last season? His lack of an offensive arsenal should not be what you judge him by.

I love Powe. He is agressive, tough and has a solid post game. However, his defense lacks and he's a black hole in the paint. A great guy to bring off the bench. He is not a starting PF on a winning team in this league.




^^^This guy wins. Though I think Powe's defense is good. He wont give an inch to anyone.


Powe is a perfect 20 minute a guy game. Quick Energy and rebounding and tough as nails.


Perk is a starter in this league for a team that has a role similar to teh one in Boston. Perk knows his role, enforces his role, rebounds and blocks shots, and more importantly has great court awareness and spacing on BOTH ends of the floor. And, he wont take sh*t from any other big man in the league. What more do you want from a Defensive Center? Camby, Diop, Dalembert, BWallace all have similar roles (Camby/Dalembert > Perk > BWallace/Diop). He's the type of player that needs to start, not someone who you would bring off of the bench.

Powe is the opposite. I think they compliment each other well and the team as it is constructed now very well. We should really look to lock Powe up ASAP.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#15 » by sully00 » Tue Nov 4, 2008 8:26 pm

What the deuce. Am I reading this wrong, or are you saying Perkins could start for 80% of the league?


Sure, maybe stretching a little but I certainly think that 24 of the teams in the league would consider starting Perk in the front court.

He is flat out great defensively can block shots and rebound and is equally effective at the 4 and the 5. Do Dampier, Ben Wallace, Amir Johnson, Kurt Thomas have anything on Perk? They start from some of the best teams in the league.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#16 » by Ortho Stice » Tue Nov 4, 2008 8:33 pm

GYBE wrote:
FakeScreenName123 wrote:Perk says hi.


Perk makes about 4 mil a year. That's pretty cheap for a starting center in this league.

So Powe is a full MLE player? is that what you are saying?


Powe is a lot more valuable than Perk, even with the height difference.



Perkins is far more valuable to the Celtics, and would probably be more valuable to the majority of the teams in the league. He's a legitimate center who can defend and rebound really well. Some casual fan may watch the Finals series between us and the Lakers and see Powe's vicious dunks and think he's great, but, to continue this example, Perkins was much, much more valuable for us against the Lakers than Powe. Hypothetically: if Perkins gets injured for the rest of the season we're done, whereas if Powe gets injured, replacing him with the combination of Scalabrine and Big Baby wouldn't hurt us that much.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#17 » by GYBE » Tue Nov 4, 2008 9:00 pm

sully00 wrote:He is flat out great defensively can block shots and rebound and is equally effective at the 4 and the 5. Do Dampier, Ben Wallace, Amir Johnson, Kurt Thomas have anything on Perk? They start from some of the best teams in the league.


Here are the teams I could see starting him. The Knicks, Bulls, Pistons, Pacers (they'd probably still start Rasho), Heat, Mavs and Thunder. That's 23%. Even if you exaggerate Perk's ability and argue for a few more teams, 80% is ridiculous.

idrinkrootbeer wrote:Some casual fan may watch the Finals series between us and the Lakers and see Powe's vicious dunks and think he's great


I think he's great because he's always produced despite not getting a lot of minutes. That and he's been our best offensive player this season.

but, to continue this example, Perkins was much, much more valuable for us against the Lakers than Powe. Hypothetically: if Perkins gets injured for the rest of the season we're done, whereas if Powe gets injured, replacing him with the combination of Scalabrine and Big Baby wouldn't hurt us that much.


The issue at hand is how much Powe should be offered and his value on the open market. Last year, losing Rondo for a month would've killed us more than losing Pierce for the same length of time because of the replacement options. Certainly doesn't mean Rajon deserves a bigger contract.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#18 » by sully00 » Tue Nov 4, 2008 11:39 pm

Here are the teams I could see starting him. The Knicks, Bulls, Pistons, Pacers (they'd probably still start Rasho), Heat, Mavs and Thunder. That's 23%. Even if you exaggerate Perk's ability and argue for a few more teams, 80% is ridiculous.


The Clippers, Memphis, Bobcats, Warriors, Nets, Wizards all have someone worse than Perk in their starting frontcourt right now. With Boston that is 14 teams there are half dozen more like the Spurs and Cav's who have two guys maybe 3 as good as Perk but they aren't any better.

That is all I am saying there are clearly a teams like the Raps, the Suns, the Sixers, the Lakers, the Magic, the Hornets, and the Rockets that are all set.

Maybe it is 70% and not 80%.

The issue isn't what Leon would be worth on the open market. That isn't going to be answered next offseason because he will be a restricted FA. The issue is what is it worth to keep Leon from that point. Outside of pg and center I just don't think you can pay 5 mil dollars for a reserve player.

My take on that changes if Leon can take the leap and go from a guy who puts up great numbers for the mins he plays to a guy who can handle any situation.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#19 » by Spin Move » Wed Nov 5, 2008 12:37 am

Wow lay off the cool aid guys, 3 years 9.5 million hes an undersized backup PF who is at best average defender. He aint getting 5 mil a year.
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Re: Dowe for Powe 

Post#20 » by GYBE » Wed Nov 5, 2008 1:24 am

sully00 wrote:The Clippers


Kaman and Camby.

Memphis


I admit to being a little too high on Marc Gasol.

Bobcats


They start Okafor and Wallace.

Warriors


Harrington and Biedrins my friend.

Nets


Him and Josh Boone are pretty close.

Wizards


You can't think Perk's better than Haywood or Jamison.

The issue isn't what Leon would be worth on the open market. That isn't going to be answered next offseason because he will be a restricted FA. The issue is what is it worth to keep Leon from that point. Outside of pg and center I just don't think you can pay 5 mil dollars for a reserve player.


Very rational point. It feels weird to argue this since I like Perk as a player, I just obviously don't see him as quite the player that you do. Reasonable minds often differ.

I really think Leon's scoring is going to be crucial this season. Offensively, we're not great. Rondo is still tentative and raw on that end. We're not sure what Ray will give us going forward. Then you factor in Perk and that's three players who are often non-factors in terms of scoring. Both TA and Powe will need to get points this year.

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