Tony Allen, Leon and more

[Red2]

First, what's the real deal with Tony Allen? When he went down it sounded like he was out a few games. It's been a couple of weeks with no end in sight. At first I thought they were trading him but now I think he has a pretty serious injury. In the meantime Gabe has been the beneficiary of his minutes and while he has played well in spots he really hasn't taken advantage of the opportunity he's been given. Gabe needs to attack the rim more. He is way too content to play on the perimter but maybe that's where Doc wants him. I'd love to see him drive and dish some more. As for Tony I hope Danny is working on some deal to trade him but I suspect he's still in their plans. Leon has lost his PT to Scal and Baby and it's hard to argue with that since both of those guys have stepped up while Leon seems to have fallen into a ditch. He must be about 2 for 20 over the last several games and his D has also slipped. When's the last time you saw him take a charge ( successfully). He used to do that once or twice a game. Right now Leon looks pretty discouraged. I don't know if he's rushing his shots or if he's just in a bad stretch but all of his shots seem like circus shots with a high degree of difficulty. I think he will bounce back but if you had to trade leon or baby right now it would be leon. A few months ago I would have said Baby. As a result the core bench players now are Eddie, Scal and Baby. Gabe still hasn't emerged which leaves a hole at the backup 2 guard spot.Why not give giddens some PT? HIs size will give other teams problems whereas Gabe will never overpower anyone.

[cisco]

I've been wondering about Tony too. His injury must be much worst than originally thought, which is disappointing. Every time he gets healthy, he gets injured again. I also agree with Pruitt. He started off looking ok, but he's taken a step back. He's definitely not the answer at backup point, at least not yet. Powe has regressed big time this year. I thought he would have taken a step forward, but he has taken a step back instead. BBD has been the one to work on his game and step it up. I would definitely trade Powe before BBD because BBD is turning into a more versatile player.

[klemen4]

Im also disappointed in Powe...right now the only thing he has over Big Baby is his ability to force offensive fouls when opponents attack the rim. His offense is so limited I could cry and the worst thing is he is doing the same one on one power plays under the rim, at least he could try to hit some mid range jumpers.

If baby is able to keep hitting those mid range jumpers and in Scal continues to defend superb like he did in last games at c/pf position I think Powe will be out of the rotation. Im really happy for both players (Baby, Scal) how they emerged in last games.

[LenBiasBaller]

Its crazy how reactionary everyone is. So big baby has his best game as a Celtic and all of a sudden he is better/more valuable than Leon? Leon is the same guy that went coast to coast in the NBA finals and blew up...

Big Baby had one good game and that's all there is to it. Powe has had way more good games than Big Baby has...I like both bc they are very different. Davis is so strong that he can hold his ground against the huge Shaqs, Howards, and Big Z's, of the world which makes him valuable on certain nights. Powe is just going through a rough stretch...i mean they don't even dump it to him in the post anymore....things will turn around.

By the way I actually love Pruitt at the point while Eddie plays the two. One thing we know now is that Eddie is useless if he has to run the offense. By the time he gets the ball up the court and into our set there is only 14 seconds or so on the shot clock...having Eddie be able to spot up has proved beneficial over the past couple of games and that it is the best way to utilize him...

Gabe at least spreads the floor, plays solid D, and can actually run the PG spot and get us into our sets. Gabe just needs more time to develop but I think he is fine for now.

[celticsnut]

I actually was going to start a thread about this as well, so now that there is no need I will elaborate on my thoughts. The glaring difference between Leon and Big Baby is Basketball IQ. Big Baby has one of the best on the team, he knows where to be on the floor and understands the game offensively and defensively. Leon can only score from the left block where he can go right to the lane spin and lay it in. They are both great offensive rebounders, but I honestly think we can get some value for TA and Leon and maybe Giddens. I never thought I would say this, but right now we have too many players. Bill Walker I believe can do what Tony does but at a much higher level if given the time. I just think we need to make some sort of move for a role player who can produce at both ends of the floor.

btw, how good has KG been playing on both ends the last 6 or 7 games. His intensity has been great. I cannot believe GP threw him under the bus saying he shouldnt have been an allstar starter.

[BillessuR6]

I don`t miss TA. He is having a horrible season. I am also a bit disappointed with Gabe in the last few games, he doesn`t look as solid anymore.

And Baby plays 2 good games and everybody forgets about 20 horrible ones he had before that. If Leon had the same role as Davis on offense (shooting jumpers) he would make them at a better % than Big Baby, IMO. But he doesn`t. He has to post up 7 footers because Doc wants some inside game from the second unit. He has an extremely tough role much tougher than Davis and that is why he is struggling.

[billfromBoston]

I actually was going to start a thread about this as well, so now that there is no need I will elaborate on my thoughts. The glaring difference between Leon and Big Baby is Basketball IQ. Big Baby has one of the best on the team, he knows where to be on the floor and understands the game offensively and defensively. Leon can only score from the left block where he can go right to the lane spin and lay it in. They are both great offensive rebounders, but I honestly think we can get some value for TA and Leon and maybe Giddens. I never thought I would say this, but right now we have too many players. Bill Walker I believe can do what Tony does but at a much higher level if given the time. I just think we need to make some sort of move for a role player who can produce at both ends of the floor.

btw, how good has KG been playing on both ends the last 6 or 7 games. His intensity has been great. I cannot believe GP threw him under the bus saying he shouldnt have been an allstar starter.

I see this quoted all the time and I just don't think its true at all...Davis makes more poor decisions than Powe does with his posessions, yet is credited with some brilliant bball mind...Powe sticks to his role - attacking the rim...in time he'll open up his game, but for now he's doing what is asked of him....

Like LenBiasBaller said, you don't value players based off the most recent play, you judge off of body of work and trending in development..

Davis was awesome last night and has been playing his best ball over the past 3-4 weeks, but it hasn't been THAT impressive and Powe has had some very good games in there as well.

The difference is that Powe has had his most inconsistent play over that same 3-4 weeks, so everyone is feelin Baby right now..Powe still has a SUBSTANTIALLY more impressive total body of work over the past 2 seasons - including a majority of THIS season...

If one is going to get traded by the deadline, I still think its likely Davis based off total body of work...Davis hasn't been so impressive his last 3-4 weeks of play that he's somehow show that he's turned a corner and established himself as the better player overall.

Players have slumps - Powe is in one...he's been asked to be far more of a pure post player than he was last season - triple the looks in the post and less than half the basket cuts and P&R opportunities...

This is the same type of group logic that had the "sky is falling" for the C's during the 2-7 stretch....the game goes on...Powe isn't done improving because he's hit a rough patch...young players go through stretches where they have to progress past road-blocks..Powe is learning how to do this right now...Baby spent the better part of the last year doing the same...

[billfromBoston]

I don`t miss TA. He is having a horrible season. I am also a bit disappointed with Gabe in the last few games, he doesn`t look as solid anymore.

And Baby plays 2 good games and everybody forgets about 20 horrible ones he had before that. If Leon had the same role as Davis on offense (shooting jumpers) he would make them at a better % than Big Baby, IMO. But he doesn`t. He has to post up 7 footers because Doc wants some inside game from the second unit. He has an extremely tough role much tougher than Davis and that is why he is struggling.

I fully agree with this...while Powe should be utilizing a more diverse post repertoire - which he has - his role is to attack the basket and give the team a post threat.

Davis shoots the jumpers because Davis/Powe as a combo unit have gotten the most amount of PT together and Powe is the superior inside player...their usage is a byproduct of role responsibility and Powe is performing his role of inside scoring at a much more effective clip than Davis is at shooting the ball...that fact alone has hurt Powe's ability to perform his role...

The fact that Davis is recently playing better and just had his best game of the season does not alter the season-long performance of both...Davis hasn't been effective consistently and Powe has out-performed him on the whole.

There is more season to play..Davis COULD continue to hold off Powe and Leon COULD continue to struggle the rest of the way...but i'm not betting on it based off what we've seen of each overall...

[Kids Are Alright]

If we are to trade one, the one that I think the team misses most is BBD. Leon on both ends has been weak. Admit it.

[sully00]

Baby makes poor decisions but he also makes great ones he is a passer and play maker, Leon simply isn't. But there is no need to jump to conclusions about either player.

In the end I think that Doc is a bigger fan of Tony than Danny is, and he is likely trying to put together a package at the deadline to get an upgrade. I think there is a chance that Danny is having Doc find out if he can live without Tony and perhaps Leon more than either of these two have fallen out of favor, they simply would at least have some value in a deal.

A package of Tony (BYC), Leon, Giddens, and Cassell would return about 5.6 mil in a trade. While Joe Smith comes to mind as much as I would like to add him he is pretty soft, so I can't see giving up Leon and Tony for soft and he may get bought out anyhow.

One player that make sense for Boston would be Jeff Foster, with Stephen Graham included for roster reasons. He is a pretty big financial commitment and not a dynamic player but he is big and tough and will keep centers off of KG. A move like this would also put Indiana near the cap.

[LongTimeFan]

My opinion is that Davis is being showcased. Pruitt too.

If you look at the stats Powe is doing fine. He has a three year contract and we have his Bird rights. He is enourmously grateful to the Celtics and the long term deal is doable.

Davis is not a long term fit for us. The things he can do, like we've seen recently, are not the things we need. On another team he could do what he did to Howard et al. routinely. Basically, he is much more valuable to any number of teams than he is to the Celtics. We're cashing him out because it is in our interest, his interest and the future teams interest. It's a win-win-win and will happen.

Gabe isn't quite there, but we'll entertain offers. We need the spot.

Tony is ours and has no value outside the Celtics.

[MyInsatiableOne]

I don`t miss TA. He is having a horrible season. I am also a bit disappointed with Gabe in the last few games, he doesn`t look as solid anymore.

And Baby plays 2 good games and everybody forgets about 20 horrible ones he had before that. If Leon had the same role as Davis on offense (shooting jumpers) he would make them at a better % than Big Baby, IMO. But he doesn`t. He has to post up 7 footers because Doc wants some inside game from the second unit. He has an extremely tough role much tougher than Davis and that is why he is struggling.

Thank you for echoing my thoughts exactly. Baby still sucks hard, as does Tony...

Scal has been the real revelation in all of this...who knew?

[Tricky Ricky]

I don`t miss TA. He is having a horrible season. I am also a bit disappointed with Gabe in the last few games, he doesn`t look as solid anymore.

And Baby plays 2 good games and everybody forgets about 20 horrible ones he had before that. If Leon had the same role as Davis on offense (shooting jumpers) he would make them at a better % than Big Baby, IMO. But he doesn`t. He has to post up 7 footers because Doc wants some inside game from the second unit. He has an extremely tough role much tougher than Davis and that is why he is struggling.

Thank you for echoing my thoughts exactly. Baby still sucks hard, as does Tony...

Scal has been the real revelation in all of this...who knew?

AGREED!

[cisco]

My opinion is that Davis is being showcased. Pruitt too.

If you look at the stats Powe is doing fine. He has a three year contract and we have his Bird rights. He is enourmously grateful to the Celtics and the long term deal is doable.

Davis is not a long term fit for us. The things he can do, like we've seen recently, are not the things we need. On another team he could do what he did to Howard et al. routinely. Basically, he is much more valuable to any number of teams than he is to the Celtics. We're cashing him out because it is in our interest, his interest and the future teams interest. It's a win-win-win and will happen.

Gabe isn't quite there, but we'll entertain offers. We need the spot.

Tony is ours and has no value outside the Celtics.

LOL. The things Baby does we don't need? Like defend Dwight Howard and other bigs effectively? Like great interior passing? Like a 15 foot jumpshot? LMAO! What the heck are you smoking? If you think the Celtics need a one trick pony, an undersized guy that has one offensive move over a guy who can play defense against bigs (which the Celtics desperately need), shoot the jumper (has to be more consistent, I know) and can pass the way BBD can, you are crazy.

[sully00]

I think you are wishing a little there LTF.

To start I don't know that either are particularly going to be a FA target but this was the bonus year on Leon, this off season Baby is cost controlled limited to the MLE, Leon is not both are restricted FAs. This team is not paying either of these guys more than the MLE exception so early bird vs bird does not matter. They both will likely be back on team friendly deals or QO's.

As far as value I think the complete opposite is true. The league is full of perimeter oriented big men and teams like Toronto who cannot score at all in the paint. Leon is stat stuffing pile of explosion that can fill that void. Boston has KG, Perk, Pierce, and Rondo to play in the paint they need Big Baby to stretch the D and play a little center as well as pass the ball a little. Those are skills that can be found other places and don't belong exclusively to a fat man. In the end Baby is a combo of Leon and Scal and while not always pretty is very useful, and it is easy for an agent to print up Leon's stats and sell him as under used around the league.

I don't think that Boston has any interest in moving a 6'4" pg who can shoot and defend and is under contract, Pruitt stays.

[Fencer reregistered]

Scal has been the real revelation in all of this...who knew?

Danny Ainge, perhaps?

[ParticleMan]

LOL talk about over-reaction!!

Baby has one great game and suddenly Powe is done, finished, trade him for some cheez stix. LMAO.

Reality check: Powe has been a MUCH better player overall this year than Davis. Now I'm not big on Net PER and all that, but when the difference is this big:

Powe 0.0
Davis -9.8

...that tells you that Powe has been consistently good for much longer than Davis this year. Powe has the highest net PER of any non-starter, while Baby has the lowest of any rotation player.

I like Davis, I'd be in favor of keeping him with a low-cost deal, but not at the expense of Powe. Powe is in a slump, and I'm glad Baby is picking up the slack, but let's not lose long term vision here.

[LongTimeFan]

Sully:

I have only one comment:

We got a first round pick for Jiri Welsh.

Baby is a big man with a championship ring that did a pretty good job on Howard et al. in the forth period. I think fair value to both teams is a mid first. And Baby has stated he wants more than the backup role we have him slotted for.

I have abandoned my cynical, realism when it comes to DA and trading. I just add 30% to what my reason tells me.

[MyInsatiableOne]

LOL talk about over-reaction!!

Baby has one great game and suddenly Powe is done, finished, trade him for some cheez stix. LMAO.

Reality check: Powe has been a MUCH better player overall this year than Davis. Now I'm not big on Net PER and all that, but when the difference is this big:

Powe 0.0
Davis -9.8

...that tells you that Powe has been consistently good for much longer than Davis this year. Powe has the highest net PER of any non-starter, while Baby has the lowest of any rotation player.

I like Davis, I'd be in favor of keeping him with a low-cost deal, but not at the expense of Powe. Powe is in a slump, and I'm glad Baby is picking up the slack, but let's not lose long term vision here.

Agreed...

Scal has been the real revelation in all of this...who knew?

Danny Ainge, perhaps?

My point wasn't "wow he's really great, we all were wrong dogging the guy", it was "holy crap, who saw him being any good in all these minutes when Perk was out??"

[humblebum]

Lets get one thing straight: it's shortsighted for people to have written off Glen Davis due to starting off his second season in the NBA shooting the ball poorly. Glen shoots the ball poorly in the beginning of the season, when he's trying to integrate a mid-range shot for the FIRST TIME in his NBA career and he's labeled as a chucker and terrible shooter. Powe has a few bad weeks and he's "in a slump". Let's be honest here people, this is pure unadulterated bias in favor of Powe.

Glen is an undersized, second year PF-C on a championship team. From the moment he stepped on an NBA court he's displayed a strong knowledge of defensive positioning and rotations. That's what won him minutes over Powe at the beginning of his rookie campaign, and it's what has allowed him to continue to beat out Powe for minutes to this day, even considering the age and experience advantage that Leon has over Glen.

Leon, like Glen, is undersized, but moreso, and possesses solid finishing skills around the basket and a knack for garnering offensive rebounds and loose balls. Leon's inside scoring ability is nice, but it's not nearly as valuable as Glen's interior defense.

Here's a testament to Glen's importance... look at the top three competitors for the Celtics, the Lakers, the Cavs, and the Magic (or Hawks). Glen has tremendous value defending Bynum or Gasol, Big Z, and Dwight Howard (and Al Horford)... he tends to give these guys problems with his strength. Powe is incapable of defending any of these guys and he has a REALLY hard time scoring over them.

Powe is a nice player, a situational role player, just like Davis is. It just so happens that the Celtics need Davis' skillset much moreso than they need Powe's. Look at PJ Brown last year, what did he bring to the table? Physical interior defense, good screens, and mid-range shooting. Davis might not have proved himself as a reliable and consistent player in those regards but let's be honest he's much closer to filling that role than Powe will ever be.