The evolution of Paul Pierce

[Bruiser]

Hey yo!

I can help but wonder how impressively has Paul Pierce grown up to become a winner.

Years ago, even if I'd consider him a warrior, I really really hated the way he played. He forced everything, handled the ball too much, made too many TO, missed too many FT. he did not play smart ball. Paul and his buddy AW were the epitome of the NBA, so much talent wasted because of lacking a clear focus. I hated the way the team that reached the ECF against the Nets had to play the game to be successful. By the way, I think O'Brien did an impressive coach job with that bunch as he got all that anyone could get from them.

Then Danny blew up that team. AW was gone and then back and then gone again. And Paul wandered doing the same old act. Handling too much, not playing D, going solo most of the time. I started many many threads in this site bashing Paul, asking for a trade, begging for Ray Allen in celtic-green, that´s what I call an irony!!!

But suddenly, KG and Ray were in town. Many people wonder how would the selfish Pierce react to this new world order. I didn't know what to expect from him either. But the team that Danny managed to assemble is such a joy. KG, Paul and Ray are so complementary that either Danny is a true basketball genious or he is the luckiest man on earth.

And then in front of our eyes Paul became a man. He doesn't need to be the main event every single night. Now he knows when and how to use his skills. He just wants to win. I wouldn't change him for any player in the league. Nor LeBron, nor Kobe, nor Wade, Manu....

Last night's play is a sample of Paul's growth as a player. So I think Paul deserved this words.

Any thoughts? Kind regards.

[celticsnut]

Bruiser, nice post.

I agree with everything you said. I have been a big advicate of Paul his whole career, but he has grown up so much as a player. I have said it before and I will continue to say it again, Paul Pierce (given everything he has, athletics ability, lack of speed and quickness, slow jumpshot release) is the best player in the league. All that means is he does the most with what he has. If he had the athleticism of a Lebron or Kobe we may be talking about one of the greatest of all times.

The quote from him about "giving the game what it needs" is honestly one of the best one liners I have heard from an athlete in quite some time. He took the team on his back and then realized getting Ray involved would put us over the hump. He just has such a high basketball IQ.

I still think that our 2-7 stretch was a flook, but one thing you realize is that we werent hitting shots, period and it killed our defensive effort. During that stretch, we played much like we played last night during the 2nd and 3rd quarters.

As consistent as Ray has been all year, Paul is and always will be our ROCK. He is one of only a handful of players, (Kobe, Lebron, CP3, Dwade, and maybe Duncan) who can just flat out put a team on his back. A perfect example was Game 5 of the Finals last season, a game in which we lost. I think he went for 38 and literally kept us in the game single handedly.

Larry is my favorite of all time, although I was born in 1984 and don't really remember anything about his time playing. Paul though is my most admired. For what he has had happen to him in his life, his father to drafted 10th, to the stabbing, to a Champion. I have cried twice in recent memory, once after clinching the title last season and another time when Paul was balling his eyes out on opening night. It is so humbling watching someone get something that not everyone deserves, but being on that list of people who actually do deserve championships. LETS GO GET 18!

[exculpatory]

Bruiser

I am glad to see that you have changed your view, and have moved from the "trade Paul for Darius Miles" fan club to not wanting to exchange him for anyone in the league.

However, I only agree in part with what you wrote.

Unquestionably, Paul has definitely matured as a person and a true leader right in front of our eyes as he approached and passed age 30. Hopefully, he has permanently left behind his occasional immature antics.

However, he has always had the same skill set. In addition to averaging around 25 ppg during our doldrum years and hitting inumerable gamewinning or clutch shots, he averaged close to 7R and close to 5 ASSISTS PER GAME between 03 and 06. He was always been an unselfish player. His problem was that he had garbage support personnel, did not trust them, and therefore he had to monopolize the ball, force shots through double and triple teams, and therefore turn the ball over more. He said for years leading up to the KG and RA trades - "Give me some studs to play with and I will bring you a championship." AND HE DID JUST THAT! Our 2007-2008 Championship Series MVP is now the consummate team player - allowing Rondo to play the point, passing freely to KG and Ray, and setting up Leon, Baby others constantly. When necessary, he brings it, becomes a scoring machine and averages close to 30 ppg, and when not necessary, he focuses on rebounding, passing and DEFENSE (a skill he has always had, but now with KG around, he can really display that skill).

I am glad you have seen the light. We have a future HOFer on our hands who will lead us to more banners, and in about 20 games will pass the Chief and become the third leading scorer in the history of the most storied franchise in all of sports (behind Larry and Hondo). Kobe and Lebron are more athletic and flashier, but I too would not trade him for ANYONE (and never would have).

[cisco]

Bruiser

I am glad to see that you have changed your view, and have moved from the "trade Paul for Darius Miles" fan club to not wanting to exchange him for anyone in the league.

However, I only agree in part with what you wrote.

Unquestionably, Paul has definitely matured as a person and a true leader right in front of our eyes as he approached and passed age 30. Hopefully, he has permanently left behind his occasional immature antics.

However, he has always had the same skill set. In addition to averaging around 25 ppg during our doldrum years and hitting inumerable gamewinning or clutch shots, he averaged close to 7R and close to 5 ASSISTS PER GAME between 03 and 06. He was always been an unselfish player. His problem was that he had garbage support personnel, did not trust them, and therefore he had to monopolize the ball, force shots through double and triple teams, and therefore turn the ball over more. He said for years leading up to the KG and RA trades - "Give me some studs to play with and I will bring you a championship." AND HE DID JUST THAT! Our 2007-2008 Championship Series MVP is now the consummate team player - allowing Rondo to play the point, passing freely to KG and Ray, and setting up Leon, Baby others constantly. When necessary, he brings it, becomes a scoring machine and averages close to 30 ppg, and when not necessary, he focuses on rebounding, passing and DEFENSE (a skill he has always had, but now with KG around, he can really display that skill).

I am glad you have seen the light. We have a future HOFer on our hands who will lead us to more banners, and in about 20 games will pass the Chief and become the third leading scorer in the history of the most storied franchise in all of sports (behind Larry and Hondo). Kobe and Lebron are more athletic and flashier, but I too would not trade him for ANYONE (and never would have).

Good post. I was going to write something similar. Sometimes I wonder if people only started watching Pierce last year.

[exculpatory]

Cisco my friend,

You are right on point.

You, me, SamIAm and many others have always known the the "Truth" has always been the "Truth.

The clique of Paul Pierce underappreciators are still out there, but are less vocal these days. They were always wrong.

[LenBiasBaller]

I agree with everything but the thing that has stood out the most to me is Pierce's bball IQ. He is always in the right place at the right time on offense and defense. I just had no idea how well he understood the game...we can see that now because of the veterans we have around him. Now he picks his spots and takes over when he knows we need him to, like game 7 vs. the Cavs.

Watching Paul transform into the player he is today has been amazing to see. I love the fact that he is stamped and certified as an NBA champion.

[greenbeans]

Goddamn Pitino, just imagine if Paul always had above average teammates, he'd be looked upon as one of the better players of his generation. While I love the respect and admiration he's getting now it just goes to ahow how little people followed him before.

[Bruiser]

Bruiser

I am glad to see that you have changed your view, and have moved from the "trade Paul for Darius Miles" fan club to not wanting to exchange him for anyone in the league.

However, I only agree in part with what you wrote.

Unquestionably, Paul has definitely matured as a person and a true leader right in front of our eyes as he approached and passed age 30. Hopefully, he has permanently left behind his occasional immature antics.

However, he has always had the same skill set. In addition to averaging around 25 ppg during our doldrum years and hitting inumerable gamewinning or clutch shots, he averaged close to 7R and close to 5 ASSISTS PER GAME between 03 and 06. He was always been an unselfish player. His problem was that he had garbage support personnel, did not trust them, and therefore he had to monopolize the ball, force shots through double and triple teams, and therefore turn the ball over more. He said for years leading up to the KG and RA trades - "Give me some studs to play with and I will bring you a championship." AND HE DID JUST THAT! Our 2007-2008 Championship Series MVP is now the consummate team player - allowing Rondo to play the point, passing freely to KG and Ray, and setting up Leon, Baby others constantly. When necessary, he brings it, becomes a scoring machine and averages close to 30 ppg, and when not necessary, he focuses on rebounding, passing and DEFENSE (a skill he has always had, but now with KG around, he can really display that skill).

I am glad you have seen the light. We have a future HOFer on our hands who will lead us to more banners, and in about 20 games will pass the Chief and become the third leading scorer in the history of the most storied franchise in all of sports (behind Larry and Hondo). Kobe and Lebron are more athletic and flashier, but I too would not trade him for ANYONE (and never would have).

Your post demands some clarifications

a) Nobody ever asked for a Paul for Darius.
b) Great players make their team mates better. That´s a fact. Just ask Jefferson, Chapman about Kidd, Stoudamire and Marion about Nash (eh, well this might not work...), Allan Houston, Ratliff about Grant Hill, Kevin Gamble about Larry Bird, Byron Scott about Magic....
c) I can't agree with you about Paul's alibi. Playing with bad team mates makes your team lose but you can keep playing good. Paul has changed the way he plays the game and that´s why he has improved. There are plenty examples of good players playing for bad teams: Kidd in Dallas, Hill in Detroit, Bird back in time, Brandon Roy last year, LeBron James...
d) Paul was a very selfish player. You can't just check the stats about a player a say a SF with 5 assists, he must be a very unselfish. Iverson has a career 6,2 APG and Marbury a 7,8APG. Are they unselfish?!?!? It's not the number, it is the way you get it.

[DarkAzcura]

Sorry man, good post and well thought out...I guess but misinformed. Paul Pierce is the same Paul we've been watching the last 10 years. If you think that play last night was some kind of representation of how much he has grown up in his career, you are way off.

Pierce has always been among the league leaders in game winning assists and is actually the leader in game winning assists from 2003-2006. Paul doesn't force shots at the end of the game unless he is feeling it and everyone else is off. Never has.

Remember the pass to Delonte West? Passes to Ricky Davis? Passes to Walker? Even passes to Blount for a couple game winners?

Last night Paul did exactly what he usually does. Attract some form of a double team and watch another player run through a pick to get an open shot. Delonte West, Blount, Davis, Walker, etc. have all done the same thing which usually resulted in a last shot by one of those players from a pass from Pierce.

http://www.82games.com/random12.htm

Clutch stats from 2003-2006ish. Pierce leads all with 5 assists, and I remember a lot of them. They weren't created in a "selfish" way. They were created by Paul playing intelligently and dragging on double teams to find the open man.

It's well documented that Pierce gives the ball up when he knows he has help. Look at the 04/05 season. He averaged about 12-14 shots a game for the final 30-35 games of the season and was actually third on the team in FGA behind Walker and Davis for that part of the season.

I mean really? Good players make players better I guess (I never really agreed with this but I'll roll with it). Have Davis, Blount, and Walker been nearly as good since leaving Boston? Oh, and Roy played on a bad team last year? Aldridge is almost as good if not better then anything Pierce has ever had next to him. Whatever center Portland had last year was also better then any center Pierce had next to him until Perkins was consistently healthy (last season).

[exculpatory]

Excellent spot-on perfect points, Dark Azura. In 2005-2006, during the dark ages of Celtic basketball, he was one of the most efficient players in the NBA averaging close to 25 ppg on 13 shots per game. A ball hog, huh? LOLOLOL. Arguably, it may have been his best year all around.

Everything I wrote originally was completely accurate. Paul Pierce has ALWAYS played the way he is playing. He has always been a superstar. He did indeed improve the games of those around him during the lean years. The problem was that he had absolute trash around him and there was only so much he could do. Therefore, he had to dominate the ball more and singlehandedly carried lousy teams to the playoffs for several years. Neither Kobe or Lebron or JKidd in his prime or anyone could have done much more with the garbage support he was given. And if you think otherwise, you are severely deluded.

Bruiser is simply 100,000% wrong and completely uninformed. His years as a Pierce basher have distorted his reality. Remember Curmudgeon? Remember Rondo Fan? I try not to. The Pierce undervaluation fan club lingers in the weeds. If Paul's outstanding level of play were to drop off even a bit, they would be out in force again.

And Greenbeans, he is considered to be one of the greatest players/scorers of his generation nonetheless - even though he played with no support for so many years. He is deservedly a lock for the HOF.

[greenbeans]

Yeah, you and I see but I don't think he gets nearly enough respect around the league, well up until last year atleast.

[GuyClinch]

OP no doubt is trying to complement PP. But it's really a lack of understanding Paul's game and the NBA in general.

It's EASIER to be a "team guy" and a "winner" when you have great teamates. The reason PP forced so many shots - or was "bad" was simply because the lack of talent on his previous teams. The best player he played with prior to the big trades was either Antione Walker or Ricky Davis (yes Ricky at his peak is probably better then Walker - sorry Walker fans).

Truth is there are guys on losing teams that are attacked as losers when it's almost entirely out of their control. PP has always done more with less. Back when we acquired RA and KG - I (along with many other C's fans) correctly predicted both a great record and a championship.

Why? Well my reason was simple enough. If you can make it to an ECF and win 49 games with AW as your best player - a championship seems pretty darn likely with with RA and KG! I'd say the flip side of this argument is guys that are labelled as "winners' when they were merely hanger on types that hit some key shots.

Guys like Robert Horry or Luke Walton. I am not saying these guys are bad players but they sometimes benefit too much from the reverse effect. Its easier for rolepayers to thrive and act like unselfish good guys when they have star talent around them.

This is why the old "the backbone of this team is (insert scrub roleplayer)" argument slays me.. The NBA is a star system. DA correctly evaluated this - and got the C's 2 more stars (and kept another in Rondo)..

Pete

[PP34RA10]

OP no doubt is trying to complement PP. But it's really a lack of understanding Paul's game and the NBA in general.

It's EASIER to be a "team guy" and a "winner" when you have great teamates. The reason PP forced so many shots - or was "bad" was simply because the lack of talent on his previous teams. The best player he played with prior to the big trades was either Antione Walker or Ricky Davis (yes Ricky at his peak is probably better then Walker - sorry Walker fans).

Truth is there are guys on losing teams that are attacked as losers when it's almost entirely out of their control. PP has always done more with less. Back when we acquired RA and KG - I (along with many other C's fans) correctly predicted both a great record and a championship.

Why? Well my reason was simple enough. If you can make it to an ECF and win 49 games with AW as your best player - a championship seems pretty darn likely with with RA and KG! I'd say the flip side of this argument is guys that are labelled as "winners' when they were merely hanger on types that hit some key shots.

Guys like Robert Horry or Luke Walton. I am not saying these guys are bad players but they sometimes benefit too much from the reverse effect. Its easier for rolepayers to thrive and act like unselfish good guys when they have star talent around them.

This is why the old "the backbone of this team is (insert scrub roleplayer)" argument slays me.. The NBA is a star system. DA correctly evaluated this - and got the C's 2 more stars (and kept another in Rondo)..

Pete

basically

[Fencer reregistered]

Here's the thing to remember about Pierce -- like almost every other player in the NBA, he lacks the conditioning to play flat-out all the time at both ends of the floor.

And you know what happens when you do have it? Your coach plays you more minutes, until you reach your bending point. Russell (who occasionally loafed on offense) and Chamberlain (who occasionally took the easy way out on O or loafed on D) went long stretches playing 48+ min/game. Without having any way to be sure, I suspect they would have been even better per-minute players if they'd played less.

Pierce often played great defense in flashes -- but he didn't do it consistently until KG and Allen came to share the offensive load.

On offense he's always been in the same group as Carter, McGrady, et al., or for that matter Ray Allen -- willing, astute, but not amazingly skilled passers, which is why they get both a number of assists and fair number of TOs.

[billfromBoston]

Hey yo!

I can help but wonder how impressively has Paul Pierce grown up to become a winner.

Years ago, even if I'd consider him a warrior, I really really hated the way he played. He forced everything, handled the ball too much, made too many TO, missed too many FT. he did not play smart ball. Paul and his buddy AW were the epitome of the NBA, so much talent wasted because of lacking a clear focus. I hated the way the team that reached the ECF against the Nets had to play the game to be successful. By the way, I think O'Brien did an impressive coach job with that bunch as he got all that anyone could get from them.

Then Danny blew up that team. AW was gone and then back and then gone again. And Paul wandered doing the same old act. Handling too much, not playing D, going solo most of the time. I started many many threads in this site bashing Paul, asking for a trade, begging for Ray Allen in celtic-green, that´s what I call an irony!!!

But suddenly, KG and Ray were in town. Many people wonder how would the selfish Pierce react to this new world order. I didn't know what to expect from him either. But the team that Danny managed to assemble is such a joy. KG, Paul and Ray are so complementary that either Danny is a true basketball genious or he is the luckiest man on earth.

And then in front of our eyes Paul became a man. He doesn't need to be the main event every single night. Now he knows when and how to use his skills. He just wants to win. I wouldn't change him for any player in the league. Nor LeBron, nor Kobe, nor Wade, Manu....

Last night's play is a sample of Paul's growth as a player. So I think Paul deserved this words.

Any thoughts? Kind regards.

...Paul Pierce stopped being the player you described above shortly after Doc Rivers arrived in town...he still had to carry an inexperienced and flawed team for a couple more seasons, but the days of inefficient balling are 4 years in the rearview...

[GuyClinch]

Players are a great more flexible then fans imagine especially star ones. Doc says - I want you to take more high quality shots and PP can do that. Back pre Doc era PP took more shots simply because it was needed. Inefficency means little without considering the team. NBA defense succeed in taking most of the easy shots away. If you have only one player to hit those tough shots his efficency numbers will fall.

[Kids Are Alright]

I'll give my kudos to the Captain....even on the nights that he disappears, he fills the stat sheets.....wish Curmudgeon (he left a year and a half before the trades were made if memory serves me right) and Darth would weigh in on this thread...

Anyone remember Curm's take on PP? He pretty much owned this board for a couple of years..

[greenbeans]

He still posts on the gb & trade board every now and then

[exculpatory]

Kids: The last thing this board needs is a return of Curmudgeon. He is a very bright attorney, but was wrong countless times in his appraisal of Paul, and many other things. I wish him all the best in life, but I would be gratified never to see anything he writes again.

[PPAW4Life]

I'm just so happy Pierce is still a Celtic and to some extent we have the owners to thank for that.

PP is everything you want one of your star players to be...he's mentally tough, fearless, hard-working, dedicated, consistent, efficient, explosive, focused, determined, clutch, full of heart, extremely confident and much much more.....he loves basketball immensely and that love motivates him to study the game and other players to a maniacal level.

I mean you could tell he was going to be a star maybe 5-10 games into his rookie season. He was THAT good and fearless even as a rookie. He made purposeful moves to score and chased down would-be layups for blocks. This guy was special but he started on a bad team that never got going till it was too late and then that team became slighted by most C's fans because of past accomplishments and a rich championship history.

I wish Pierce could play every minute of every game because I just feel so comfortable and confident with him on the floor...sure he'll make a whacky pass or take an ill-advised shot every now and then but the guy is one of the best one-on-one scorers in the history of the game and he is absolutely one of the top 3 TWO-way players in the game today.