The Spurs Bench Model

[GreenDreamer]

The San Antonio Spurs have a fairly simple approach to their bench, and their role players in general:

You must be able to defend your position and spread the floor with your shooting

It really is that simple. The role players who actually get playing time fit this mould. Their bigs are at the very least decent midrange shooters. Their wings and guards are almost all knockdown three point shooters. The guys who can't do this do not play.

The reason for this is that they tailor their team approach around their "Big Three" - especially Tony Parker. Tony, while he has improved a lot, still isn't that good of a shooter from the outside. He can knock down the open looks from midrange, but that's about it. Rondo denied him penetration and didn't give him enough space to comfortably get his midrange shot off, and so Tony pretty much disappeared from Sunday's game (doing what Rondo did to Parker was NOT easy). Parker is an excellent penetrating guard, though, and a core player for that team. Therefore to accomodate him, the Spurs simply demand that the role players, especially the guys who play the 4 spot, have the ability to hit the mid range shot, and preferably the three.

The key factor is that the Spurs have kept in mind that the PRIMARY ROLE of a role player is to blend in with the core players of the team. A role player needs to help the primary players play to their own strengths and to pick up the slack in certain areas. That slack could be in post defense, rebounding, picking up a tough perimeter player, or simply spreading the floor with shooting. A wise GM and a good coach (which is certainly the true in both cases in San Antonio), acquire and integrate players who provide needed skills and who can play with the core players.

In the case of the Celtics it would be good to start off with this statement:

RONDO IS NOT A ROLE PLAYER

I've read some pretty silly stuff on here, recently, about how nice it would to have Eddie out there at the end of games. Yeah, that worked out great against the Spurs, didn't it? Doc pulls Rondo with 20 seconds left in the game, with us down by 2, and puts Eddie in. So, instead of Rondo inbounding the ball, or being the guy being inbounded to, we have Ray inbounding (or meaning to) to Paul, and actually inbounding to Manu Ginobili. Game over. It isn't as if everything probably would have been AOK if the ball did actually make it to Paul, because Doc basically did the same thing against the Lakers on Christmas Day (pulling Rondo for Eddie), and we committed another back breaking turnover in that situation as well. Ooops, better get Rondo back out there!!! Too late.

Newsflash: Good defensive teams now know that Paul and Ray are prone to turning the ball over when attacked defensively, and they make this happen. Eddie is USELESS in these situations, unless you are subbing the fifth wheel out to spread the floor. Rondo needs to be out there to ensure stuff like that does not happen.

It really goes beyond that, though. Rondo isn't averaging 8.3 assists a game because he's "really lucky to be playing with these guys". This offense isn't exactly an ideal fit for the kid, but his ABILITY makes it work. There are only three players in the top 50 in assists who have a higher assists per 48 mark than he does (Paul, Williams and NASH) and two of them have a worse assist to turnover mark. He does this, by the way, while having the ball taken out of his hands FAR more often than they do. He shoots over 50% from the field, he's the second best rebounding point guard in the game, and he's the best defensive point guard - period. He has holes in his game which need to be addressed, but he's already pushing his way into the top tier at his position at 22. He gets paid 1.3 million a year to produce like guys who get paid 10 times that number, which is pretty important considering how much GPA get paid. You do not sit him for Eddie f---ing House. You find a way to make it work with him out there.

How do you make it work. You make it work like San Antonio does. You say "Can this guy play with Rondo? No? Goodbye." Tony Allen? Goodbye. He's the easiest of the whole lot. It should have been educational that when Perk went down and Veal actually got playing time that he went from being a joke to looking pretty darn good. Why? Rondo MADE him look good. Veal could spread the floor and defend his position. Bingo. Can't create his own shot? No problem, Rondo did that for him, and he helped to facilitate Rondo's game as well. This isn't a knock on Perk, mind you, as he and Rondo play well together, but Perk is a starter.

It is of the utmost importance to this team that Danny make some sort of deal that brings in at least one wing player who can spell Paul and Ray and play with the kid. Tony needs to be dealt right now, as all he does is screw things up when Rajon is out there. I personally got a real kick out of Rondo having to tell Tony how to properly seal off Nate Robinson on a switch in the first quarter of the Knick game. Then maybe we could actually get to see Gabe out there with Rondo sometimes, and with Eddie PLENTY of times. Gabe: can spread the floor + defend his position = can play for us.

I've got my own issues with Rajon, but I'll deal with those later.

[stretch]

Great post. That's why I suggested Jerry Stackhouse in a new thread. That might be a good option, using TA/Veal/ some big that Dallas would need (OB, Powe, Baby).

[GreenDreamer]

Great post. That's why I suggested Jerry Stackhouse in a new thread. That might be a good option, using TA/Veal/ some big that Dallas would need (OB, Powe, Baby).

As crazy as this sounds, unless we were getting someone back who would be a great fit for us, and I mean GREAT, I would be more willing to deal Leon than Veal right now. Stack just isn't that guy for me. Just isn't a good enough shooter, IMO, nor a defender.

[chakdaddy]

That is exactly why I don't care for Tony Allen even though he is a good slasher.

[billfromBoston]

I feel what you are saying GD, but there is more to building the roster than just getting space-creating shooters...

The team needs rebounders and tough interior play from its frontcourt, not just Scal's 3 point threat - ideally you'd like to get a player who does both - hence my belief that they will pursue Rasheed Wallace in the off-season.

Secondly, Rondo isn't going to play 48 minutes a game, so getting another PG who can create in P&R situations is an important ingredient. I believe the team is still looking at Pruitt for this role as soon as next year and his ability to shoot from distance and off the dribble allows him to play in place of Rondo as well as with him.

Third, the wing tandem of Bill Walker and JR Giddens are not pure shooters, but have floor spacing range and the potential to develop into reliable spot shooters. While specialist types like Jason Kapono are extremely proficient at these types of shots, the team also wants players that have multi-faceted ability - having a few specialists like Eddie House and Scal is good - but more well-rounded players are necissary and not always easy to find.

Boston will spend money when they see value, but this past off-season wasn't the one to go committing 3+ years or 3-4 million per year on FA's. Ainge stated the areas of concern for him on this roster, but was wise - IMO - to not over-spend on marginal role players who would have been a net positive this season over the current bench, but ultimately would have taken up roster spots that superior players could be occupying the following year.

Boston should very well be able to add one or two reliable, if limited, vets to stabalize some of the roles you are talking about and in the worst case scenario I believe Scal and Cassell will be more integral parts of the playoff roster.

Despite many fans protests to the contrary, this team is still capable of competing for the title....close losses to LA and SA show that the gap has closed, but when games come down to the final 2 minutes, its anyone's ball-game.

Boston could be stronger, but they are still competent and will likely bolster their roster with some of the pieces you are talking about...

[threrf23]

The Spurs also have consistently chosen to use Manu Ginobili - their best shooter before they acquired Mason - off the bench. Bruce Bowen, who would start in his spot, was not a good shooter at Tony Allen's age, wasn't even all that good a shooter once he started getting close to 30 minutes a game for the Spurs (and was LESS efficient than Tony). Plus, Tony last year shot well from long range on small quantities, no reason he couldn't be "respectable" if resorted to a role where he was called on to only take open threes from the corner.

And Tony Parker was never initially a better shooter than Rondo is.

I'm just saying, if we are going to use this comparison, the conclusion is that we have, if anything, is that our shooting is fine but we should be starting Tony and using Ray as a sixth man.

[Rocky5000]

Good points all around. The Spurs bench model is to bring an all-star player off the bench. We don't do that. We bring Eddie House and Tony Allen off the bench, and at least one of these guys is playing out of position. We bring Big Baby and Leon off the bench, and one of those guys is playing out of position.

I think that from your points about Rondo we could form an immediate solution, that doesn't require us to even make a deal. JUST PLAY RONDO MORE. This allows Eddie to play his position, and Tony to play his, and also solves our ball-handling problems. It also means that Ray and Paul can rest more, which believe it or not is a good thing.
MPG Of the guys you mentioned
CP3 plays 38 minutes a game.
Steve Nash plays 34, which is suprising low for a player of his caliber.
Williams plays 36, coming off from his injury.

Rondo only plays 33 (32.7 to be precise), so we're relying upon backup pg play for 15 minutes a night, where other teams have only 10. In close games, CP3, Nash, etc, play 40+ minutes. I think it's possible to push Rondo's playing time up to 37 or 38 mpg, and I don't think it'd impact him negatively. Furthermore, when we rest Rondo, we shouldn't rest him when the rest of the starters are resting; House or Tony can do a much better point guard impersonation when they're playing with Ray, Paul, and KG. Put them out there with each other and Leon, and the offense falls apart.

[sully00]

I agree with the theory of the original post just not the conclusion.

When you look at a teams bench how they fit together as a unit is not nearly as important as how they as an individual piece fit into their role with the primary unit of players. All 5 of the bench players Boston uses in its rotation fill a role and are pretty compatible with the first unit. There is no problem with Tony and Rondo as long as they are on the floor with some combo of shooters.

Way too much evaluation of the teams role players is based on how they play as a unit, that isn't going to happen in the postseason for more than short stints. Rondo doesn't need to play more in Feb just understand he will play more in April same with Garnett

One of the primary reasons that Manu comes off the bench is because he does not play as well in extended mins. If Pop can keep his mins under 30 he is a much bigger factor late in games as we saw on Sun.

I think reducing Paul's mins could help in the long run he takes so many hits and exerts so much energy on the offensive and defensive end that I would like to see him play a little less till the postseason. Don't feel the same way about Ray, his greatest asset is his conditioning, he is the second best +/- player in the league behind LeBron, and his presence alone on the court puts pressure on the defense.

While it is obvious some of you are still not fans of Doc and have little faith in him, but the reality is this guy played for some of the best coaching minds in the league and understands what he is doing. It is okay not to show your hand, we don't have to be firing on all cylinders in FEB. We can save a little surprise for teams come April. Notice he doesn't play Ray and Paul the full 48 mins anymore as if he was afraid to lose a game. Garnett has cracked 40 mins 3 times this season.

[Slartibartfast]

Doc's bench philosophy is markedly different than other coaches'. He likes the strengths of the starting 5 and so he plays them together as much as possible. With this bench, he just wants to put a solid defensive unit out there and either Ray or Paul with the idea that the defense can hold off other 2nd units while one of the stars generates offense like they did in their days with bad teams.

I can understand this approach as none of our bench players beside House and maybe Scal, bring something really significant to the table that their starting counterpart doesn't already do better, so it's better to play them as a unit for one compact unit of time then to dilute the comparative power of the starting 5.

As GreenDreamer so insightfully shared though, Pierce and Ray are very turnover prone, especially when they get blitzed as the ballhandler on the pick and roll. Hence it might be better to do as Rocky says and play Rondo more, perhaps using him more in the Ray/Pierce role with the 2nd unit.

While there would certainly be even more severe spacing issues with the 2nd unit, and defending the 2/3 would be a problem if other teams kept 2 scorers on the wings, Rondo's ability to pressure back-up 1s and blow-by them on the other end would dramatically increase the pace of the game, increasing the effectiveness of players like Powe, Allen, House and Scal.

Furthermore, I'd also like to see Scal or Baby coming in earlier and let Perk have some time with the 2nd unit. Perk's post game is much more effective than Powe's at this point and his jumper even looks better than Baby's (way small sample size, but still).

As for the dilution of the 1st unit, House and Scal, the counterparts for Rondo and Perk, are the best fits with the starting unit of all the bench players. House's lack of ball-handling is greatly alleviated by the spacing on the court, and Scal's lack of rebounding and offensive versatility are masked when paired with KG.


Under this model, Rondo and Perk would come out after about 8 minutes, get subbed in with the bench at the start of the 2nd, get subbed for Ray and KG around the 6 minute mark and then come back for Eddie and Scal with about 4 minutes to go. Repeat in the 2nd half. That way they average about 36 per game. Eddie and Scal would average about 20-25.

[Golabki]

I still think Tony Allen would be an servicable 3-pt shooter if asked to shoot wide-open 3's from a set position. The celtics have never asked him to do that the entire time he has been here.

Actually Powe is another example of that. He had a very respectable mid-range J in college that he used to set up his interior game. The celtics haven't seemed to ask him to do that much for some reason (while asking Davis to do it a lot).

[Mahoney_jr]

I disagree on Tony. He is not reliable in spot up situations.

BTW. With Posey, House and Brown we had a "Spurs Bench Model". Boston wanted to become more aggressive towards the rim and it's not working out yet.

[sully00]

I disagree on Tony. He is not reliable in spot up situations.

BTW. With Posey, House and Brown we had a "Spurs Bench Model". Boston wanted to become more aggressive towards the rim and it's not working out yet.

I agree with the observation but disagree again with the conclusion. What aren't they as good at?

The biggest piece this team seems to lack, sadly it may not lack at all. That would be a big that can replace Perk in the first unit, be a ball mover, and score. I know of a guy who is 6'9", a ball mover that shoots the 3 and just needs to shake off a concussion or two. I would prefer that this guy be Baby because he is a better rebounder than Scal but if its Scal so be it.

[GreenDreamer]

Sorry that I was not able to respond earlier. There were some great observations made on this thread. My opinions on some of the points brought up are as follows:

Playing Rondo more is difficult to do with the bench that we have. There just isn't enough shooting coming off of the bench. Eddie is a small guy, and not a good defender. Playing him with Rondo is problematic against a lot of teams as Rondo has to pick up the opponents best backcourt player defensively. During the Laker game he actually had to pick up Kobe for stretches. Now I actually think that Rondo did a good job on Bryant, but against a guy like him border line calls are ALWAYS going to go against Rondo. That is BAD for us. Kobe also would have started posting Rondo up if that mismatch had gone on much longer, as Bryant has an excellent post up game for a 2 guard. Putting Rondo into a size mismatch could cause issues, especially with regards to fouls. This could apply against any team which rolls bigger guards out there. So that makes our best bench shooter incompatible with Rondo against many teams, and most playoff teams.

Leon is OK as long as EVERYONE else is a good shooter. Leon is almost strictly a garbage man. Yeah, he has an improved post up game, but he's also a ball stopper when passed to. Baby is OK when K.G. is out there, but as a "floor spacer" with either Leon or Perk we can have issues. Tony is an absolute nightmare with Rondo. Doc actually likes to throw line ups with Rondo, Paul/Ray, Tony, Leon and Perk out there, as he did at the end of the first quarter against the Spurs. That brings about some very ugly basketball. I think that Gabe and Veal are the best matches with Rondo in teh second unit, as both can defend their position (the 2 and the 4 respectively) and can spread the floor with their shooting. That allows Rondo to play the 1 on both ends, and with either Paul or Ray out there, you can have any of our other bigs in the game and do VERY well.

For some reason Doc doesn't want to play Rondo and Gabe together. I really don't understand why, but he seems to go out of his way in not doing this. Hopefully with Tony's recent injury Doc's hand will be forced. I'm wishing Scal a speedy recovery because against second units he should blend in very well with Rondo and allow the kid to play a lot more and be more effective. Rondo needs more time on the court when he's the #2 option as opposed to being the #4. That would do wonders for his scoring game, and help him be better prepared for being a legitimate threat down the stretch runs of games. Rondo needs driving lanes and guys who can benefit from his passes to be effective. Give him those, and he'll gut the defenses of most, if not all, opposing second units.

I think that getting a playmaking point guard for a bakc is EXTREMELY important for the future of this team. Think about it: Rondo runs teh first unit, then either Paul or Ray effectively runs the second unit. Running your offense through your wings is an entirely different animal than having atrue point guard like Rajon doing it. I have noticed that this team often experiences chemistry and flow issues when Rondo both leaves and enters games as the basic nature of the offense changes. Get a point guard to actually run the second unit the way that the first unit is run, and the team will benefit from the advantages of continuity. We don't have that guy now, but even a guy like Telfair, or someone on his level, would do wonders for us,

[humblebum]

I think this is a great topic and very insightful thoughts from many.

I think that there are several quick fixes that could be employed which would create better roster balance and these are ideas which I've expressed consistently over the past two years.

One, Tony Allen could be moved into the starting lineup for Paul Pierce. Frankly, I don't believe that this move would hurt the offense "that" much because the offense could focus more on Rondo, Ray, and KG... who are all primary offensive options IMO. Currently the team has four primary offensive guys and often one, two, or three of those guys are not featured or effective parts of the offense. By allowing Tony to play with the starters he's not asked to do too much and he can focus on his defensive strengths, as well as playing off the star offensive players. Paul comes off the bench and plays the same 15 minutes stretch that he's asked to play now.

Two, when Scal and Perk are healthy you simply swap their positions in the rotation. Perkins could then get the chance to play against tired frontline guys and second line guys. Perkins could actually be utilized as an offensive post option (instead of Powe) and I think he'd be reasonably effective doing so. Perkins could come in at the 6 minute mark or so and play a ten minute stretch, take a four minute gametime break and then come back to play the rest of the half.

I think that either of those moves really help to balance the roster and could even be made together to really give the bench a push. Now I don't think that either move will be made, nor do they need to be made but absent an acquisition to bolster the bench these are moves that I think could benefit the team.

[humblebum]

sorry, double post