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then ****ing do something about it Doc!

I am sick and tired of Doc talking. He has been saying for 2 weeks how Paul and Ray will plays less but if anything they have have been playing more minutes.

SHUT UP and do something about it!

Yeah, this is geting kind of old. Doc has said before he wants to give Pierce and Ray more rest and plays Pierce 47:43 on Sunday. Doc needs to trust Walkers with 6-8 minutes a night. He is the only Sf on our roster with Scal gone.

Doc better use Walker next game, take your own freakin advice and give your best players some rest

thebirdman wrote:I am sick and tired of Doc talking. He has been saying for 2 weeks how Paul and Ray will plays less but if anything they have have been playing more minutes.

SHUT UP and do something about it!

What exactly do you want Doc to do? Dont play them long minutes and lose every game? How about HCA? Until KG returns, there is not much Doc can do, unless bench steps up in a major way.

You suck it up and play your bench.......thats's it.......

If he played Paul 32 minutes and we lost the usual suspects would be criticizing Doc for not playing Paul enough. At least give Doc some credit for holding himself accountable, he's just doing his best to win games but he's not going to be right all the time.

So i was at the game Sunday and the only thing i noticed blatantly throughout the game other than Ray and rondo stinkin it up was that Paul never came out. I was screaming for Doc to take him out. doc has done a terrible job with Ray and Paul's minutes this year.

Harison wrote:

thebirdman wrote:I am sick and tired of Doc talking. He has been saying for 2 weeks how Paul and Ray will plays less but if anything they have have been playing more minutes.

SHUT UP and do something about it!

What exactly do you want Doc to do? Dont play them long minutes and lose every game? How about HCA? Until KG returns, there is not much Doc can do, unless bench steps up in a major way.

Doc has to figure out how to get Paul some rest. IMO, he loses focus very easily with regards to players minutes. It has been this way with him since he arrived here. He falls in love with lineups and overplays them, he forgets that guys are on the bench who need to come in, or that he has alternatives to the players on the court. It is kind of like how a boxer can enter a fight with a plan, but when the punches start getting thrown in earnest how many boxers throw the plan out and fight on instinct. Doc's instincts with regards to rotations and minute manangement are not good. Never really have been.

Bad-Thoma wrote:If he played Paul 32 minutes and we lost the usual suspects would be criticizing Doc for not playing Paul enough. At least give Doc some credit for holding himself accountable, he's just doing his best to win games but he's not going to be right all the time.

Exactly, Celtics lost simply because KG is out, defence sucks and Ray with Rondo had terrible night. If game would be blowout, of course Doc would have rested starters more, but it was close and there was a chance to pull it off, would you sit your best player in such case and definitely lose instead? I dont think so.

Harison wrote:

Bad-Thoma wrote:If he played Paul 32 minutes and we lost the usual suspects would be criticizing Doc for not playing Paul enough. At least give Doc some credit for holding himself accountable, he's just doing his best to win games but he's not going to be right all the time.

Exactly, Celtics lost simply because KG is out, defence sucks and Ray with Rondo had terrible night. If game would be blowout, of course Doc would have rested starters more, but it was close and there was a chance to pull it off, would you sit your best player in such case and definitely lose instead? I dont think so.

I think that a lot more went into that loss than K.G. being out. The way that they played that game they might have actually lost with K.G. out there. Doc really lost all focus on the big picture in that game. A few observations

1. Garnett being here would have not mattered with regards to Paul's minutes, or would have been a minimal issue. The only backups Paul has on this squad are Ray and Bill Walker. Tony Allen is NOT a small forward, and neither is Scal.

2. Doc evidently forgot that Rondo is our best point guard. Rajon came out with 1:30 to go in the 3rd after picking up his fourth foul. He didn't get back into the game until there were under 3 minutes to play. That is INEXCUSABLE. How many times does it have to play out on the court that NO ONE is a better option than him down the stretch run of games? Eddie hit a couple of three and Doc "forgot" that Eddie can't dribble, play make, or defend. Paul and Ray are "dribble challenged" as well, which was put on full display at the end. No Rondo = no offense when Detroit put their stretch run lineup in. They went after Paul and Ray BIGTIME. Eddie "spacing the floor" didn't mean much. Did it?

If Doc's goal was to assure a loss AND to get Rondo looking over his shoulder, then he did a smashing job.

3. The Celtics needed to crank the pace of the game UP, and that did not happen. The main culprit behind this was Doc, and it wasn't just an "in game decision". Doc has evidently put ZERO emphasis on one of the most basic methods of KEEPING the pace of a game up:

INBOUND MADE BASKETS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!!!!!!

There are two guys on this team who do that - Scal and K.G. (who is just starting to pick up the knack). Scal learned it from playing on the Scott/Kidd Nets, and Kevin seemed to be picking up the habit from Scal. Scal doesn't just get the ball out of bounds quickly, sometimes he will actually get himself out of bounds, when a teammates grabs the ball, so that it can be passed to him so that he can inbound it ASAP. THAT is how you help to crank the pace of the game up.

We are supposedly trying to push the pace of the game up, yet whenever our opponents hit a shot you have a "designated inbounder" WALKING to the ball, WALKING the ball out of bounds, and in NO hurry to get the ball back in. This allows the defense to get back EASILY, and even INVITES them to set up a full court press. That garbage approach SLOWS a game down, and is just one basic example of what actually happens. Doc likes to TALK about "uptempo basketball", but the fact of the matter is that he coaches slow down, halfcourt basketball, and always has, despite the skill set of the team. Seriously, didn't anyone notice that when Veal went down our pace slowed to a crawl?

I agree Doc made some mistakes, but you just cant win if most players played like crap (even Pierce was far from perfect), and Doc havent overplayed Rondo... because he played like crap either. Tell me what rotation you would have used, if you played Pierce less? Still no one answered this simple question, but yet are dying to blame Doc for the lose. Simple truth is - the more players are injuried, the more minutes others get, and if you still want to win - you have to play your remaining better players more, no way arround it.

thebirdman wrote:I am sick and tired of Doc talking. He has been saying for 2 weeks how Paul and Ray will plays less but if anything they have have been playing more minutes.

SHUT UP and do something about it!

Agreed, I really like Doc as a coach but this has been baffling to me...

I don't blame Doc, I blame Johan Petro.

Harison wrote:I agree Doc made some mistakes, but you just cant win if most players played like crap (even Pierce was far from perfect), and Doc havent overplayed Rondo... because he played like crap either. Tell me what rotation you would have used, if you played Pierce less? Still no one answered this simple question, but yet are dying to blame Doc for the lose. Simple truth is - the more players are injuried, the more minutes others get, and if you still want to win - you have to play your remaining better players more, no way arround it.

Either put take out Pierce with 4 minutes left in the 1st quarter and put in Bill Walker with the rest of the starters for 4-5 minutes and then bring Pierce back to play with the bench or play Pierce until the starters come back in the 2nd quarter and then put in Bill Walker in for Pierce. If Walker does well in the 1st half, then do the same in the 2nd half. If he plays bad, then play Pierce for the whole 2nd half or give him 2-3 minutes around the 3rd/4th quarters.

It's not that hard to find minutes. Doc's biggest problem is that he plays the starters for pretty much the entire 1st and 3rd quarters. He doesn't stagger line-ups so it forces either Pierce or Allen to log in big minutes. Instead, he should take one of the 2 out of the game with 3-4 minutes left in the 1st and 3rd quarters so that you can substitute one for the other in early in the 2nd and 4th quarters.

Give Walker or Giddens a chance. Doc is afraid to play either of those guys, but is perfectly comfortable playing Moore/Marbury right away even though they don't know any of our plays and in Marbury's case hasn't played in over a year. With Scalabrine out at least a month and TA out until the end of the year, we have to see what Walker/Giddens can give us and at the same time keep Pierce fresh.

GreenDreamer wrote:

Harison wrote:

Bad-Thoma wrote:If he played Paul 32 minutes and we lost the usual suspects would be criticizing Doc for not playing Paul enough. At least give Doc some credit for holding himself accountable, he's just doing his best to win games but he's not going to be right all the time.

Exactly, Celtics lost simply because KG is out, defence sucks and Ray with Rondo had terrible night. If game would be blowout, of course Doc would have rested starters more, but it was close and there was a chance to pull it off, would you sit your best player in such case and definitely lose instead? I dont think so.

I think that a lot more went into that loss than K.G. being out. The way that they played that game they might have actually lost with K.G. out there. Doc really lost all focus on the big picture in that game. A few observations

1. Garnett being here would have not mattered with regards to Paul's minutes, or would have been a minimal issue. The only backups Paul has on this squad are Ray and Bill Walker. Tony Allen is NOT a small forward, and neither is Scal.

2. Doc evidently forgot that Rondo is our best point guard. Rajon came out with 1:30 to go in the 3rd after picking up his fourth foul. He didn't get back into the game until there were under 3 minutes to play. That is INEXCUSABLE. How many times does it have to play out on the court that NO ONE is a better option than him down the stretch run of games? Eddie hit a couple of three and Doc "forgot" that Eddie can't dribble, play make, or defend. Paul and Ray are "dribble challenged" as well, which was put on full display at the end. No Rondo = no offense when Detroit put their stretch run lineup in. They went after Paul and Ray BIGTIME. Eddie "spacing the floor" didn't mean much. Did it?

If Doc's goal was to assure a loss AND to get Rondo looking over his shoulder, then he did a smashing job.

3. The Celtics needed to crank the pace of the game UP, and that did not happen. The main culprit behind this was Doc, and it wasn't just an "in game decision". Doc has evidently put ZERO emphasis on one of the most basic methods of KEEPING the pace of a game up:

INBOUND MADE BASKETS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!!!!!!

There are two guys on this team who do that - Scal and K.G. (who is just starting to pick up the knack). Scal learned it from playing on the Scott/Kidd Nets, and Kevin seemed to be picking up the habit from Scal. Scal doesn't just get the ball out of bounds quickly, sometimes he will actually get himself out of bounds, when a teammates grabs the ball, so that it can be passed to him so that he can inbound it ASAP. THAT is how you help to crank the pace of the game up.

We are supposedly trying to push the pace of the game up, yet whenever our opponents hit a shot you have a "designated inbounder" WALKING to the ball, WALKING the ball out of bounds, and in NO hurry to get the ball back in. This allows the defense to get back EASILY, and even INVITES them to set up a full court press. That garbage approach SLOWS a game down, and is just one basic example of what actually happens. Doc likes to TALK about "uptempo basketball", but the fact of the matter is that he coaches slow down, halfcourt basketball, and always has, despite the skill set of the team. Seriously, didn't anyone notice that when Veal went down our pace slowed to a crawl?

Well said, GreenDreamer, great points all of them, though I'd argue that KG's presence against Detroit would have vastly improved the defense...and we lost that game because of defense, Doc Rivers' substitutions notwithstanding.

Just to back up some of your points: Doc forgets to put Rondo back in ALL THE TIME. If Eddie hits one three, Doc thinks that gives him license to forget about Rondo. It's ridiculous. Eddie should come in small doses when teams forget about him--Doc relies on Eddie too much when the rest of the starters are having a rough night. That's one way to do it--OR--you could just let the starters keep trying, since they are by far the best players on the team. Rondo's defense ALONE warrants him playing the majority of the 4th quarter. Playing House in the 4th quarter is fools gold--you might get lucky a game or two, but for the most part you're sabotaging your chances of winning. Doc doesn't get that.

We'll see when and if Marbury takes over for House as the most trusted sub. In my mind, Doc's going to keep leaning on House when he should be giving those extra minutes to Marbury. It's much smarter to force-feed Steph his minutes now, when the team is banged up, since Marbury makes other players better with his playmaking ability, while on the other House just lulls us into slow down, no ball movement bad basketball. Marbury should be the first guard off the bench the rest of the season.

Great points about getting the ball inbounded. Perk, Baby, Powe all waste valuable time getting the ball inbounded...hell, Perk seems to step over the baseline half the time anyway (which is rarely called, thankfully). You'd think this would be easily correctable.

Bad-Thoma wrote:If he played Paul 32 minutes and we lost the usual suspects would be criticizing Doc for not playing Paul enough. At least give Doc some credit for holding himself accountable, he's just doing his best to win games but he's not going to be right all the time.

That's an extreme comparision, 32 minuutes vs. 48 minutes. No one here is calling for PP to play 32 minutes. But 37-39 minutes would be good. We need get Walker in there for about 8 minutes a game when its not blowout time. We have no one esle on this current roster that can play SF.

MVP16 wrote:It's not that hard to find minutes. Doc's biggest problem is that he plays the starters for pretty much the entire 1st and 3rd quarters. He doesn't stagger line-ups so it forces either Pierce or Allen to log in big minutes. Instead, he should take one of the 2 out of the game with 3-4 minutes left in the 1st and 3rd quarters so that you can substitute one for the other in early in the 2nd and 4th quarters.

Give Walker or Giddens a chance. Doc is afraid to play either of those guys, but is perfectly comfortable playing Moore/Marbury right away even though they don't know any of our plays and in Marbury's case hasn't played in over a year. With Scalabrine out at least a month and TA out until the end of the year, we have to see what Walker/Giddens can give us and at the same time keep Pierce fresh.

Yes, well said, MVP16. Doc never staggers his lineups and our current injury situation is screaming for that solution. There's no reason Walker can't come in for Paul at the 4 minute mark of the 1st and then Paul comes in for Ray at the beginning of the 2nd quarter...then you create a little rest for Paul during the 2nd quarter by replacing him with Ray at the 6 minute mark (and bringing Rondo back in too), with Eddie or Marbury sliding to the 2. Then Pierce comes back out with 3 minutes left in the 2nd. That would work out to about 17 minutes a half for Pierce and 18 for Ray...and maybe 4 to 6 minutes for Bill Walker.

return2glory wrote:

Bad-Thoma wrote:If he played Paul 32 minutes and we lost the usual suspects would be criticizing Doc for not playing Paul enough. At least give Doc some credit for holding himself accountable, he's just doing his best to win games but he's not going to be right all the time.

That's an extreme comparision, 32 minuutes vs. 48 minutes. No one here is calling for PP to play 32 minutes. But 37-39 minutes would be good. We need get Walker in there for about 8 minutes a game when its not blowout time. We have no one esle on this current roster that can play SF.

It was meant to be an extreme comparison. Yes, somewhere in the 35-40 mins is probably where Paul should be, but when you're down 3 rotation guys and trying to pull out close games it's a little harder to keep the rotations ideal. He made a mistake and admitted it. I'd like to see Skywalker get some minutes too, but we've seen nothing to show that he is ready for that, it's just dreaming at his point. Doc sees this kid all the time in practice, we've just seen some nice plays here and there in garbage time. Regardless of what Doc may say about being more worried about health this team obviously hasn't given up hope for HCA, and the stretch run in a tight race for HCA is a tough time to try to bring along young players. It's hard enough to get the new vets fully acclimated.